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  • THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

    THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

    One of the first things a student needs to understand concerning the book of Daniel is it writing style. It simply could be said it’s Hebrew Parallelism, Poetry, or Chiasm. Chiastic structure can be found from chapters 2-7 with parallelism in 2 & 7, 3 & 6, 4 & 5.

    Example:
    Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 2)
    Daniel has Visions of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 7)
    From this literature structure a student should be able to identify that all of the dreams and visions are of one and the same. This method of dreams being one isn’t new to Daniel, but was how dreams and visions were establish much like how we find of Joseph dreams of cows and corn (Genesis 41:32)

    FIRST BEAST OF THE SEA AS BABYLON
    Daniel 7:4” THE FIRST WAS LIKE A LION, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.”
    Daniel 2: 37 “Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. THOU ART THIS HEAD OF GOLD.”

    SECOND BEAST OF THE SEA AS MEDIAN
    Daniel 7:5 “And behold another beast, a SECOND, LIKE TO A BEAR, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”
    Daniel 2: 39a “And after thee shall arise ANOTHER KINGDOM INFERIOR to thee,” (Median was inferior to Babylon)
    Daniel 5: 30 “In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the MEDIAN took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.”
    Daniel 6:1” It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;”

    THIRD BEAST OF THE SEA AS PERSIAN
    Daniel 7:6” After this I beheld, and lo ANOTHER, LIKE A LEOPARD, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.”
    Daniel 2:39b “and another THIRD KINGDOM OF BRASS, which shall bear rule over all the earth”.

    The mention of four wings and four heads represents strength , power and speed as the heads represents four Persian kings as recorded by Daniel 11:2

    “And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.”

    FOURTH BEAST OF THE SEA AS GREECE
    Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
    Daniel 2: 40 “And the FOURTH KINGDOM shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.”
    Daniel 10: 20 “Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
    Daniel 11:2b “and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. 3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be BROKEN, and shall be DIVIDED TOWARD THE FOUR WINDS of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

    The kingdom of Alexander the Great was soon divided upon his death into four kingdoms, the South to Ptolemy ~ Egypt, the North to Seleucus ~ Iran, Iraq, Syria, and parts of Central Asia, the West to Cassander ~ Macedonia, most of Greece, and parts of Thrace and the East to Lysimachus ~ Lydia, Ionia, Phrygia, and other parts of Turkey.

    TEN HORNS THEN A LITTLE HORN
    Daniel 7:8 “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them ANOTHER LITTLE HORN, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”
    Daniel 2: 41 “And whereas thou sawest the feet and TOES, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the KINGDOM SHALL BE PARTLY STRONG, AND PARTLY BROKEN. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”
    TEN HORNS =TEN SUCESSORS (DIADOCHI)
    Here it is told that the fourth kingdom was to be divided and parts strong and parts weak. After the death of Alexander of Great his empire would be under ten successors then later only four. Which come up to take the major parts of the kingdom often reference to the successors (Diadochi ).
    The two strongest parts of the divided kingdom of Greece would be the South Ptolemy ~ Egypt, the North Seleucus ~ Syria which the book of Daniel chapter 11 records and speaks of these as the king of the North and the king of the South.
    It is this king of the North which comes to control as Antiochus IV Epiphanes and he makes war with the saints, removes the high priest Onias III, stop the daily offerings, pollutes the sanctuary, and causes the abomination that makes desolated.
    Daniel 7: 24 “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    Daniel 8: 9 “And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”

    Daniel 11:29 “At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.”

    So we can let Daniel interpret these dreams and visions for us and it has nothing to do with Rome or the first century.
    Roger Beck

  • #2
    Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

    Your thesis is well thought out. But just one little point may call it in to question. Daniel 7 is prophecy. It does not start with Nebuchadnezzar. It starts with Belshazzar, who was the last king of Neo Babylon. Daniel 7:17 says, in his explanation, "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth." (future to Belshazzar).

    The first Beast then is the Medo-Persian dynasty, not Babylon, and if so, the last - Rome. This seems to be confirmed by the multiple proofs in Revelation that the Beast was of Rome.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

      @Walls

      I think you just overlooked my opening thesis of how these visions are all the same.

      Chiastic structure can be found from chapters 2-7 with parallelism in 2 & 7, 3 & 6, 4 & 5.

      Example:
      Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 2)
      Daniel has Visions of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 7)
      From this literature structure a student should be able to identify that all of the dreams and visions are of one and the same. This method of dreams being one isn’t new to Daniel, but was how dreams and visions were establish much like how we find of Joseph dreams of cows and corn (Genesis 41:32)

      This is the same theme that we see from chapters 7 to that of chapter 8, both are of the same.. It's only that Daniel was troubled in his mind and was then given a second vision (chp.8) with an interpretation showing the division of Greece into four and then out of one of them this ferocious king which should be understood as Antiochus IV Epiphances. So again the visions are all the same showing four kingdoms to which chapter 2 shows the kingdom of Babylon is the first with Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

        Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
        THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

        One of the first things a student needs to understand concerning the book of Daniel is it writing style. It simply could be said it’s Hebrew Parallelism, Poetry, or Chiasm. Chiastic structure can be found from chapters 2-7 with parallelism in 2 & 7, 3 & 6, 4 & 5.

        Example:
        Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 2)
        Daniel has Visions of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 7)
        From this literature structure a student should be able to identify that all of the dreams and visions are of one and the same. This method of dreams being one isn’t new to Daniel, but was how dreams and visions were establish much like how we find of Joseph dreams of cows and corn (Genesis 41:32)

        FIRST BEAST OF THE SEA AS BABYLON
        Daniel 7:4” THE FIRST WAS LIKE A LION, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.”
        Daniel 2: 37 “Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. THOU ART THIS HEAD OF GOLD.”

        SECOND BEAST OF THE SEA AS MEDIAN
        Daniel 7:5 “And behold another beast, a SECOND, LIKE TO A BEAR, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”
        Daniel 2: 39a “And after thee shall arise ANOTHER KINGDOM INFERIOR to thee,” (Median was inferior to Babylon)
        Daniel 5: 30 “In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the MEDIAN took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.”
        Daniel 6:1” It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;”

        THIRD BEAST OF THE SEA AS PERSIAN
        Daniel 7:6” After this I beheld, and lo ANOTHER, LIKE A LEOPARD, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.”
        Daniel 2:39b “and another THIRD KINGDOM OF BRASS, which shall bear rule over all the earth”.

        The mention of four wings and four heads represents strength , power and speed as the heads represents four Persian kings as recorded by Daniel 11:2

        “And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.”

        FOURTH BEAST OF THE SEA AS GREECE
        Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
        Daniel 2: 40 “And the FOURTH KINGDOM shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.”
        Daniel 10: 20 “Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
        Daniel 11:2b “and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. 3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be BROKEN, and shall be DIVIDED TOWARD THE FOUR WINDS of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

        The kingdom of Alexander the Great was soon divided upon his death into four kingdoms, the South to Ptolemy ~ Egypt, the North to Seleucus ~ Iran, Iraq, Syria, and parts of Central Asia, the West to Cassander ~ Macedonia, most of Greece, and parts of Thrace and the East to Lysimachus ~ Lydia, Ionia, Phrygia, and other parts of Turkey.

        TEN HORNS THEN A LITTLE HORN
        Daniel 7:8 “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them ANOTHER LITTLE HORN, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”
        Daniel 2: 41 “And whereas thou sawest the feet and TOES, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the KINGDOM SHALL BE PARTLY STRONG, AND PARTLY BROKEN. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”
        TEN HORNS =TEN SUCESSORS (DIADOCHI)
        Here it is told that the fourth kingdom was to be divided and parts strong and parts weak. After the death of Alexander of Great his empire would be under ten successors then later only four. Which come up to take the major parts of the kingdom often reference to the successors (Diadochi ).
        The two strongest parts of the divided kingdom of Greece would be the South Ptolemy ~ Egypt, the North Seleucus ~ Syria which the book of Daniel chapter 11 records and speaks of these as the king of the North and the king of the South.
        It is this king of the North which comes to control as Antiochus IV Epiphanes and he makes war with the saints, removes the high priest Onias III, stop the daily offerings, pollutes the sanctuary, and causes the abomination that makes desolated.
        Daniel 7: 24 “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
        Daniel 8: 9 “And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”

        Daniel 11:29 “At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.”

        So we can let Daniel interpret these dreams and visions for us and it has nothing to do with Rome or the first century.
        Roger Beck
        Agreed I have been debating this for a while

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

          Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
          THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

          One of the first things a student needs to understand concerning the book of Daniel is it writing style. It simply could be said it’s Hebrew Parallelism, Poetry, or Chiasm. Chiastic structure can be found from chapters 2-7 with parallelism in 2 & 7, 3 & 6, 4 & 5.

          Example:
          Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 2)
          Daniel has Visions of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 7)
          From this literature structure a student should be able to identify that all of the dreams and visions are of one and the same. This method of dreams being one isn’t new to Daniel, but was how dreams and visions were establish much like how we find of Joseph dreams of cows and corn (Genesis 41:32)

          FIRST BEAST OF THE SEA AS BABYLON
          Daniel 7:4” THE FIRST WAS LIKE A LION, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.”
          Daniel 2: 37 “Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. THOU ART THIS HEAD OF GOLD.”

          SECOND BEAST OF THE SEA AS MEDIAN
          Daniel 7:5 “And behold another beast, a SECOND, LIKE TO A BEAR, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.”
          Daniel 2: 39a “And after thee shall arise ANOTHER KINGDOM INFERIOR to thee,” (Median was inferior to Babylon)
          Daniel 5: 30 “In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. 31 And Darius the MEDIAN took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.”
          Daniel 6:1” It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;”

          THIRD BEAST OF THE SEA AS PERSIAN
          Daniel 7:6” After this I beheld, and lo ANOTHER, LIKE A LEOPARD, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.”
          Daniel 2:39b “and another THIRD KINGDOM OF BRASS, which shall bear rule over all the earth”.

          The mention of four wings and four heads represents strength , power and speed as the heads represents four Persian kings as recorded by Daniel 11:2

          “And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.”

          FOURTH BEAST OF THE SEA AS GREECE
          Daniel 7:7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a FOURTH BEAST, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.”
          Daniel 2: 40 “And the FOURTH KINGDOM shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.”
          Daniel 10: 20 “Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
          Daniel 11:2b “and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. 3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. 4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be BROKEN, and shall be DIVIDED TOWARD THE FOUR WINDS of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

          The kingdom of Alexander the Great was soon divided upon his death into four kingdoms, the South to Ptolemy ~ Egypt, the North to Seleucus ~ Iran, Iraq, Syria, and parts of Central Asia, the West to Cassander ~ Macedonia, most of Greece, and parts of Thrace and the East to Lysimachus ~ Lydia, Ionia, Phrygia, and other parts of Turkey.

          TEN HORNS THEN A LITTLE HORN
          Daniel 7:8 “I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them ANOTHER LITTLE HORN, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”
          Daniel 2: 41 “And whereas thou sawest the feet and TOES, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the KINGDOM SHALL BE PARTLY STRONG, AND PARTLY BROKEN. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”
          TEN HORNS =TEN SUCESSORS (DIADOCHI)
          Here it is told that the fourth kingdom was to be divided and parts strong and parts weak. After the death of Alexander of Great his empire would be under ten successors then later only four. Which come up to take the major parts of the kingdom often reference to the successors (Diadochi ).
          The two strongest parts of the divided kingdom of Greece would be the South Ptolemy ~ Egypt, the North Seleucus ~ Syria which the book of Daniel chapter 11 records and speaks of these as the king of the North and the king of the South.
          It is this king of the North which comes to control as Antiochus IV Epiphanes and he makes war with the saints, removes the high priest Onias III, stop the daily offerings, pollutes the sanctuary, and causes the abomination that makes desolated.
          Daniel 7: 24 “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
          Daniel 8: 9 “And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”

          Daniel 11:29 “At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.”

          So we can let Daniel interpret these dreams and visions for us and it has nothing to do with Rome or the first century.
          Roger Beck
          There are 5 Beasts in Daniel counting the End Time Little Horn who is CALLED A BEAST in Dan. 7:11 and then we can look back at THE REST of the beasts to total 5.

          Rev. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

          So Babylon {Lion}, Media-Persia {Bear}, Greece {Leopard} and Rome {Fierce Iron toothed Beast} lost their Dominion, but lived on as Nations to a lesser degree. Babylon was where Alexander the Great died, they they lived on for a time and a season until as prophesied they became a place where nomads/bedouins roamed. Persia today is Iran, Greece is still a nation today and Rome is basically Italy to this day. But this Last Beast will be cast into hell fire according to Dan. 7:11, whereas the others, even after they lost their dominion remained for a time and a season. This is supposed to show us we have 4 Nationalist {City/State} POWERS and a MAN POWER called the Little Horn because unlike the rest of the Beasts he was a MERE MAN.

          The Median angle makes absolutely no sense. The Bear proves its two Kingdoms combined. Its RAISED UP on ONE SIDE or Persia ids the greater power. The Medes and Persians conquered Babylon, Egypt and Lydia who had a pact together to fight against Persia if any one of them were attacked were all conquered by Persia, hence the THREE BONES in the bears mouth.

          5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

          There is no such thing as a Median Beast, it was Media-Persia.

          Dan. 11:29 is Antiochus, not the Anti-Christ Little Horn. So it has nothing to do with the 10 Horns which are 10 end time kings OR MORE because 10 can just mean the COMPLETE NUMBER of Kings, so I guess it could also be 8 or 14, or 23 !! Or it might actually mean 10. But it has nothing to do with Antiochus

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

            Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
            @Walls

            I think you just overlooked my opening thesis of how these visions are all the same.

            Chiastic structure can be found from chapters 2-7 with parallelism in 2 & 7, 3 & 6, 4 & 5.

            Example:
            Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 2)
            Daniel has Visions of 4 Kingdoms & Kingdom of God (chapter 7)
            From this literature structure a student should be able to identify that all of the dreams and visions are of one and the same. This method of dreams being one isn’t new to Daniel, but was how dreams and visions were establish much like how we find of Joseph dreams of cows and corn (Genesis 41:32)

            This is the same theme that we see from chapters 7 to that of chapter 8, both are of the same.. It's only that Daniel was troubled in his mind and was then given a second vision (chp.8) with an interpretation showing the division of Greece into four and then out of one of them this ferocious king which should be understood as Antiochus IV Epiphances. So again the visions are all the same showing four kingdoms to which chapter 2 shows the kingdom of Babylon is the first with Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold.
            I actually read it carefully because it was well laid out. No doubt there is parallelism. And it goes beyond Chapter 7. Chapters 2 to 7 are written in Chaldean (Aramaic) because Daniel was, in the kings courts, talking to Gentiles. He outlines what their future would be. Then, abruptly, Daniel is again the prophet to Israel. So Chapters 8 onward are again Hebrew. He is addressing "his (Daniel's) people" about their future in relation to the Gentile world powers. So some things are the same, but from an Israeli perspective. While Gentile rule in the first 7 Chapters continues till it is crushed to powder, Daniel's People have their destiny with an undetermined gap of chastisement, followed by the ignominy of embracing this last Gentile king - a Roman.

            I guess we're going to differ, but I never get too worried because, after all, the prophecy pertains to Israel (Daniel's People) and not the Church.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

              Hi Beckrl, long time no see.

              Chapter 8 has the ram as one kingdom with Greece following..,


              The Ram’s Identity

              20 The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.

              The Goat

              21 The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.


              5 And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’ 6 After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.


              The second beast was raised up on one side which implies 2 sides.

              One horn longer than the other ,

              3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.

              THIRD BEAST OF THE SEA AS PERSIAN
              Daniel 7:6” After this I beheld, and lo ANOTHER, LIKE A LEOPARD, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.”
              Daniel 2:39b “and another THIRD KINGDOM OF BRASS, which shall bear rule over all the earth”.
              The leopard is more like Greece , who attacked the ram without his feet touching the ground. ( 4 wings ) A bear doesnt move that quickly.

              Welcome back.
              And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
                THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                FIRST BEAST OF THE SEA AS BABYLON

                SECOND BEAST OF THE SEA AS MEDIAN

                THIRD BEAST OF THE SEA AS PERSIAN

                FOURTH BEAST OF THE SEA AS GREECE
                If you paralleled with Dan 2 MP is the second beast so how do you divide them apart for Dan 7?

                The kingdom of Alexander the Great was soon divided upon his death into four kingdoms, the South to Ptolemy ~ Egypt, the North to Seleucus ~ Iran, Iraq, Syria, and parts of Central Asia, the West to Cassander ~ Macedonia, most of Greece, and parts of Thrace and the East to Lysimachus ~ Lydia, Ionia, Phrygia, and other parts of Turkey.
                8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

                The He goat is Grecia granted but it is the third not fourth kingdom.

                Thus you would have ……

                1. Babylon
                2. MP
                3. Grecia
                4. Four parts

                So then who are these four parts. You correctly discern that the four divisions of Greece in history are not the fourth kingdom as the fourth kingdom is an end time kingdom and that this fourth kingdom is not Rome. But in error you have made Greece the fourth not correctly the third kingdom for your purpose.

                The fourth kingdom is created when the third kingdom (Grecia) is divided into four parts which has yet happened. The four parts themselves are the fourth kingdom. Yes we are still living in the kingdom of Grecia. The four parts, lion, bear, leopard, 4th beasts come upon the world at one time is it he kingdom from below the sea ie the pit, Hell on earth. The four seals show these four kings upon earth, Rev 13 shows the fourth kingdom assuming control as the other beasts are now part of the 4th beast. The second beast of Rev 13 is the little horn.

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                • #9
                  Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                  Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
                  There are 5 Beasts in Daniel counting the End Time Little Horn who is CALLED A BEAST in Dan. 7:11 and then we can look back at THE REST of the beasts to total 5.

                  Rev. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
                  You seem to misunderstand these reference from Daniel. The fourth beast with this little horn and then the rest of those beast. Namely the rest of the beast here are Babylon, Median and Persian and the fourth beast with this little horn is from Grecian. So there are not 5 beast in any of these visions.

                  So Babylon {Lion}, Media-Persia {Bear}, Greece {Leopard} and Rome {Fierce Iron toothed Beast} lost their Dominion, but lived on as Nations to a lesser degree. Babylon was where Alexander the Great died, they they lived on for a time and a season until as prophesied they became a place where nomads/bedouins roamed. Persia today is Iran, Greece is still a nation today and Rome is basically Italy to this day. But this Last Beast will be cast into hell fire according to Dan. 7:11, whereas the others, even after they lost their dominion remained for a time and a season. This is supposed to show us we have 4 Nationalist {City/State} POWERS and a MAN POWER called the Little Horn because unlike the rest of the Beasts he was a MERE MAN.
                  again your are forcing Rome into these imagery even when Rome isn't named. Here that a look at who and where Daniel names these four kingdoms.
                  Babylon the first kingdom
                  Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold." [the image of the gold head is the first kingdom]

                  Median the second kingdom is much weaker than Babylon.
                  Daniel 2:39 "And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee."
                  Daniel 5:30 "In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
                  31 And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old."

                  Persian the third kingdom [notice Rome isn't mentioned to come]
                  Daniel 10:10 "In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision."
                  20 "Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come."

                  Grecian the fourth kingdom mentioned to come by Daniel
                  Daniel 10:20 "Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come."
                  Daniel 11:1 "Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
                  2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
                  3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
                  4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those."

                  No mentioned of Rome at that is your forcing that into the text.

                  The Median angle makes absolutely no sense. The Bear proves its two Kingdoms combined. Its RAISED UP on ONE SIDE or Persia ids the greater power. The Medes and Persians conquered Babylon, Egypt and Lydia who had a pact together to fight against Persia if any one of them were attacked were all conquered by Persia, hence the THREE BONES in the bears mouth.

                  5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

                  There is no such thing as a Median Beast, it was Media-Persia.

                  Dan. 11:29 is Antiochus, not the Anti-Christ Little Horn. So it has nothing to do with the 10 Horns which are 10 end time kings OR MORE because 10 can just mean the COMPLETE NUMBER of Kings, so I guess it could also be 8 or 14, or 23 !! Or it might actually mean 10. But it has nothing to do with Antiochus
                  Would ask you to read over my other post that answers this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                    One thing to add for the fourth beast being Greece is that Daniel lived to see the captivity times of the first three beast but not Greece then the angel tells Daniel this

                    Daniel 10:20
                    20 So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come

                    Daniel was told that the next and final beast would come and it would be Greece

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                      Originally posted by Walls View Post
                      I actually read it carefully because it was well laid out. No doubt there is parallelism. And it goes beyond Chapter 7. Chapters 2 to 7 are written in Chaldean (Aramaic) because Daniel was, in the kings courts, talking to Gentiles. He outlines what their future would be. Then, abruptly, Daniel is again the prophet to Israel. So Chapters 8 onward are again Hebrew. He is addressing "his (Daniel's) people" about their future in relation to the Gentile world powers. So some things are the same, but from an Israeli perspective. While Gentile rule in the first 7 Chapters continues till it is crushed to powder, Daniel's People have their destiny with an undetermined gap of chastisement, followed by the ignominy of embracing this last Gentile king - a Roman.

                      I guess we're going to differ, but I never get too worried because, after all, the prophecy pertains to Israel (Daniel's People) and not the Church.
                      I guesS the biggest question then is how many "little horns" are there in your view. Daniel as Ive shown in chapters 7 and 8 are of the same "little horn" so these two visions are doubled to establish the truth and to interpret the vision so that Daniel would understand. It is quite easy to understand the mention of a little horn in both of these visions are of the same little horn so that Daniel might understand just as Ive shown in earlier visions of a double of the same just to make it establish and true. [Genesis of cows and corns]


                      CHAPTER 7 LITTLE HORN
                      DANIEL 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
                      8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another LITTLE HORN, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

                      DANIEL 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of THE OTHER which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
                      21 I beheld, and THE SAME HORN made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

                      23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
                      24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

                      CHAPTER 8 LITTLE HORN
                      DANIEL 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
                      9 And out of one of them came forth a LITTLE HORN, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

                      21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
                      22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
                      23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance[ LITTLE HORN], and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                        Originally posted by ross3421 View Post
                        If you paralleled with Dan 2 MP is the second beast so how do you divide them apart for Dan 7?
                        I don't divide them in chapter 2 neither in chapter 7


                        8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

                        The He goat is Grecia granted but it is the third not fourth kingdom.

                        Thus you would have ……

                        1. Babylon
                        2. MP
                        3. Grecia
                        4. Four parts

                        So then who are these four parts. You correctly discern that the four divisions of Greece in history are not the fourth kingdom as the fourth kingdom is an end time kingdom and that this fourth kingdom is not Rome. But in error you have made Greece the fourth not correctly the third kingdom for your purpose.

                        The fourth kingdom is created when the third kingdom (Grecia) is divided into four parts which has yet happened. The four parts themselves are the fourth kingdom. Yes we are still living in the kingdom of Grecia. The four parts, lion, bear, leopard, 4th beasts come upon the world at one time is it he kingdom from below the sea ie the pit, Hell on earth. The four seals show these four kings upon earth, Rev 13 shows the fourth kingdom assuming control as the other beasts are now part of the 4th beast. The second beast of Rev 13 is the little horn.
                        Chapter 8 clears this up when you understand the same little horn in 8 is the same from chapter 7 with came up from the fourth kingdom. how guess what it was Greece in chapter 8 that this little horn rose up. From Greece division after the death of Alexander the Great the kingdom was first controlled by his 10 generals know as the Diadochi, then came down to the four strongest Generals of which Antiochhus IV would rise up and dominate Israel. This is what the visions of Daniel all point to.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                          @ ross3421

                          I misspoke, I meant to say I divide them both in chapters 2 and 7. The edit seems not to be working.

                          Originally posted by marty fox View Post
                          One thing to add for the fourth beast being Greece is that Daniel lived to see the captivity times of the first three beast but not Greece then the angel tells Daniel this

                          Daniel 10:20
                          20 So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come

                          Daniel was told that the next and final beast would come and it would be Greece
                          Great point that most seem to just over look.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                            Originally posted by jeffweeder View Post
                            Hi Beckrl, long time no see.
                            Thanks Jeff

                            Chapter 8 has the ram as one kingdom with Greece following..,


                            The Ram’s Identity

                            20 The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.

                            The Goat

                            21 The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.
                            Yes the Greece kingdom was to be divided into four and out of one of these four shall this little horn rise up.

                            5 And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’ 6 After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.


                            The second beast was raised up on one side which implies 2 sides.

                            One horn longer than the other ,

                            3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
                            That's not the same, the second beast in chapter 2 was said to much inferior to Babylon. Persian or Median & Persian wouldn't have been inferior , but Median would have been.

                            The leopard is more like Greece , who attacked the ram without his feet touching the ground. ( 4 wings ) A bear doesnt move that quickly.

                            Welcome back.
                            The leopard of chapter 2 is more in line with Persian (even the Persian Leopard) and the four heads of Persian is represented in Daniel 11 of the four kings that was to rise up with in the kingdom.

                            Daniel 11: "Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him.
                            2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet THREE kings in Persia; and the FOURTH shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

                            Of course chapter 11 goes into a history lesson from Medain, Persian to that of Greece and it's South Ptolemy to the North Seleucid until the defilement of the temple and the period of it's cleanings.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Beckrl View Post
                              Re: THE FOUR BEAST OF DANIEL

                              @ ross3421

                              I misspoke, I meant to say I divide them both in chapters 2 and 7. The edit seems not to be working.



                              Great point that most seem to just over look.
                              Yes Rome is not mentioned in the book of Daniel four beast are mentioned and only four nations are mentioned

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