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  • Discussion baptist to pentecostal: prophecies

    Hello from Eastern Europe.
    I was in baptist-like church for about 14 years. My wife is from pentecostal church. Usually in my culture it's wife who goes after man, also it was our case, we went to baptist church several years. After some discussions though, I've decided that we'll start going to pentecostal church instead, also our kids started to attend Sunday school there. Then covid-19 happened and we just watch sermons online instead, I only go to prayers on weekday when church building is less crowded. I don't have a gift of praying in languages, I want it, though I know it's not enough to just want it, I need to have strong desire which I think I'm lacking just yet.

    Hope this introduction gives basic understanding. Now my question or rather topic to discuss is modern prophecies. I do hope that some of those who read this are pentecostal church members, because from some of my experience, discussing this with baptists rather doesn't make sense, at least this is how things are where I live (no offence baptist forum members, please). So, from sermons, also from many audio records that circulate among pentecostal friends, I often hear that really hard times will come. Well, this is something I know from the Bible itself, but those prophecies say that it will come like really soon; like people who can hear it will face those hard times. Nothing really specific, just general things like "you will not overcome those hard times with your knowledge, your diploma, only with Holy Spirit" (that's what I've listened to right now). Though nothing specific, this is what I can hear on regular basis (nothing like this was in baptist church). Also looks like this is something about worldwide changes...

    So my question is to our pentecostal brothers and sisters, do you hear similar things in your countries as well? If yes, was there anything more specific? Or is it something that happens only in Slavic Eastern Europe?...

    P.S.: I really hope this is not classified as controversial topic. I do love baptist brothers and sisters. This is only description of my path.

  • #2
    Welcome and no, you are not being controversial.
    sigpic
    ".....it's your nickel"

    Comment


    • #3
      Just wanted to add that yes, I do trust those modern prophecies that I hear (one of those predicted massive illness in January 2020 when covid-19 wasn't known yet). Of course my human body is weak and wants everyday calm, wellness and no huge changes. My current job is really good and we managed to buy some land out of city; as a regular human I want to settle on my land, build some country house for my family and not face any hard times in my lifetime. From the other hand, I do realize that God's will is higher than any my wish. My intention is to prepare myself to what has to come. I'm not sure what my steps should be. Opening this discussion is just an attempt to get familiar with other souls that try to understand God's will through His Word including prophecies. Just reading the Bible is not enough to me, not that I can memorize huge passages, it just doesn't say specifically when those hard times will come.

      As a baptist and strict small group goer, I know that first the Good news must be spread all over the world; it's not the case yet, because countries like North Korea, Saudi Arabia etc are still closed.

      Thus my second thought is maybe those modern prophecies say only about some local changes.

      But as a third thought, many pentecostal believers migrated to western countries after Soviet Union collapsed, because they heard prophecy that this is what they should do.

      I don't hear anything similar to that these days. No modern prophecy says that it's better to leave our region and seek better place. Which leads to conclusion that something really bad must happen really soon and there will be no country where it will be more safe.

      It will take some time for me to gather the most interesting recordings I have and to translate them.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by marchello View Post
        Hello from Eastern Europe.
        I was in baptist-like church for about 14 years. My wife is from pentecostal church. Usually in my culture it's wife who goes after man, also it was our case, we went to baptist church several years. After some discussions though, I've decided that we'll start going to pentecostal church instead, also our kids started to attend Sunday school there. Then covid-19 happened and we just watch sermons online instead, I only go to prayers on weekday when church building is less crowded. I don't have a gift of praying in languages, I want it, though I know it's not enough to just want it, I need to have strong desire which I think I'm lacking just yet.

        Hope this introduction gives basic understanding. Now my question or rather topic to discuss is modern prophecies. I do hope that some of those who read this are pentecostal church members, because from some of my experience, discussing this with baptists rather doesn't make sense, at least this is how things are where I live (no offence baptist forum members, please). So, from sermons, also from many audio records that circulate among pentecostal friends, I often hear that really hard times will come. Well, this is something I know from the Bible itself, but those prophecies say that it will come like really soon; like people who can hear it will face those hard times. Nothing really specific, just general things like "you will not overcome those hard times with your knowledge, your diploma, only with Holy Spirit" (that's what I've listened to right now). Though nothing specific, this is what I can hear on regular basis (nothing like this was in baptist church). Also looks like this is something about worldwide changes...

        So my question is to our pentecostal brothers and sisters, do you hear similar things in your countries as well? If yes, was there anything more specific? Or is it something that happens only in Slavic Eastern Europe?...

        P.S.: I really hope this is not classified as controversial topic. I do love baptist brothers and sisters. This is only description of my path.
        Be a little careful with prophecies. Sometimes they can be very specific and easy to test. Other times the audience is vaguely defined and the events are vaguely defined, allowing someone to claim just about anything as a success. Generic comments about hard times ahead could refer to an economic recession but a less honorable speaker might also claim a "hit" if someone hearing the words were diagnosed with MS or cancer.

        We shouldn't reject things outright but should be careful with what we hear and consider the speaker. It's also worth looking at the speaker's track record. If you make enough moderately vague predictions the chances are you'll be able to point to a few things that you can say you called but any detractors can point to lots of things you called for but never happened. Sadly once the modern day false prophets get their hooks into someone it seems very hard to break those ties. You only have to look at the subscriber list to garbage like The Elijah List to see the same names appearing again and again with yet another prophecy sent from an angel or given in a visitation to the throne room or whatever else they claimed this time, only to find that the prophecy was never fulfilled but the author keeps on pumping out garbage.

        If someone says they have a gift of prophecy be careful. If they have it the chances are you'll see it for yourself and they won't need to tell you about it. If someone says they are a prophet, the chances are they aren't. If someone tries to claim the level of authority an Old Testament prophet had, it's almost certainly safe to ignore anything else they say. Read Deuteronomy 13 and 18.

        Comment


        • #5
          I believe hard times are coming for all Christians .Persecution is ramping up all over the world . Are we in the end times ? If not we can see them from here by what is going on now .

          Welcome to bibleforums marchello !

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by marchello View Post
            I don't have a gift of praying in languages,
            Hello, and welcome, I am Pentecostal and want to encourage you that all our not given a "GIFT" of tongues, but we all can pray in the Spirit because the Holy Spirit lives inside us
            It takes love to embrace those ones who are weak, and strength to endure the weakness, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sonajero View Post

              Be a little careful with prophecies. Sometimes they can be very specific and easy to test. Other times the audience is vaguely defined and the events are vaguely defined, allowing someone to claim just about anything as a success. Generic comments about hard times ahead could refer to an economic recession but a less honorable speaker might also claim a "hit" if someone hearing the words were diagnosed with MS or cancer.

              We shouldn't reject things outright but should be careful with what we hear and consider the speaker. It's also worth looking at the speaker's track record. If you make enough moderately vague predictions the chances are you'll be able to point to a few things that you can say you called but any detractors can point to lots of things you called for but never happened. Sadly once the modern day false prophets get their hooks into someone it seems very hard to break those ties. You only have to look at the subscriber list to garbage like The Elijah List to see the same names appearing again and again with yet another prophecy sent from an angel or given in a visitation to the throne room or whatever else they claimed this time, only to find that the prophecy was never fulfilled but the author keeps on pumping out garbage.

              If someone says they have a gift of prophecy be careful. If they have it the chances are you'll see it for yourself and they won't need to tell you about it. If someone says they are a prophet, the chances are they aren't. If someone tries to claim the level of authority an Old Testament prophet had, it's almost certainly safe to ignore anything else they say. Read Deuteronomy 13 and 18.
              If someone uses the authority of an Old Testament prophet, or says "This is what the Lord is saying" as part of his prophecy, reject it outright. The Old Testament prophet went into history when the Holy Spirit came to the church on the Day of Pentecost. Also, if someone says "This is what God is saying" and is not directly quoting the Bible, then he is giving "new revelation" and equivalent to Scripture. But the canon of Scripture closed after the death of the last Apostle (John). Therefore anything prophetic that God has not already clearly said in the Written Scriptures is of the flesh, or of the devil because a false prophecy can contain a divination spirit that can attack spiritually or physically if the prophecy is even put on the "back burner" to wait and see if it is true.

              With all prophecy, be like a Berean who "searched the Scriptures daily if these things are so".

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PaulChristensen View Post

                If someone uses the authority of an Old Testament prophet, or says "This is what the Lord is saying" as part of his prophecy, reject it outright. The Old Testament prophet went into history when the Holy Spirit came to the church on the Day of Pentecost. Also, if someone says "This is what God is saying" and is not directly quoting the Bible, then he is giving "new revelation" and equivalent to Scripture. But the canon of Scripture closed after the death of the last Apostle (John). Therefore anything prophetic that God has not already clearly said in the Written Scriptures is of the flesh, or of the devil because a false prophecy can contain a divination spirit that can attack spiritually or physically if the prophecy is even put on the "back burner" to wait and see if it is true.
                This is where a sense of balance is required. Scripture can reasonably be regarded as things God said that are relevant to the entire church. To argue that the canon of Scripture should be reopened to add the words of a new prophecy would require not only that the words are accepted as God speaking but also that they are accepted as being universally relevant.

                It's perfectly possible that God would provide a prophetic word, however presented, that was relevant to one person in one situation and not worthy of being eternally recorded with chapter and verse in a newly expanded Bible.

                With respect, I think it's alarmist at best to claim that a false prophecy can contain a spirit that attacks while the words are tested. That sounds like the kind of silly theology that comes from the new apostolic/prophetic movement - any time we are presented with something that claims to be from God we should test it so to claim we are vulnerable to attack while testing it assigns the devil more power than is rightfully his.

                Caution is certainly warranted if someone makes bold proclamations but a human failing in presentation doesn't change whether or not the underlying message came from God or not. A word from God presented badly doesn't become false and neither does a word from the flesh become divine simply by being presented with humility.

                With all prophecy, be like a Berean who "searched the Scriptures daily if these things are so".
                No arguments there.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sonajero View Post

                  This is where a sense of balance is required. Scripture can reasonably be regarded as things God said that are relevant to the entire church. To argue that the canon of Scripture should be reopened to add the words of a new prophecy would require not only that the words are accepted as God speaking but also that they are accepted as being universally relevant.

                  It's perfectly possible that God would provide a prophetic word, however presented, that was relevant to one person in one situation and not worthy of being eternally recorded with chapter and verse in a newly expanded Bible.

                  With respect, I think it's alarmist at best to claim that a false prophecy can contain a spirit that attacks while the words are tested. That sounds like the kind of silly theology that comes from the new apostolic/prophetic movement - any time we are presented with something that claims to be from God we should test it so to claim we are vulnerable to attack while testing it assigns the devil more power than is rightfully his.

                  Caution is certainly warranted if someone makes bold proclamations but a human failing in presentation doesn't change whether or not the underlying message came from God or not. A word from God presented badly doesn't become false and neither does a word from the flesh become divine simply by being presented with humility.



                  No arguments there.
                  You make reasonable points.
                  I wasn't aware of a divination spirit accompanying a false prophecy until I heard the story of a couple of self-appointed "prophets" giving a personal word to a preacher that God has told them that he was going to be famous and wealthy, The preacher wasn't sure about it, so he put it 'on the back burner' to see what God said to him about it. Suddenly he developed severe back pain, and it persisted even after two surgeries to try and fix it. Then a colleague asked him if he had at any time anything to do with the occult. He preacher maintained that he hadn't - then he remembered the prophecy. His colleague told him to renounce it immediately because it was a divination spirit that was attacking him physically. The moment he renounced the prophecy, the back pain disappeared.

                  You might see the renunciation of the prophecy and the disappearance of the back pain as coincidence, but I took it as a fair warning not to accept personal prophecies that don't confirm what God has already told me in the normal course of routine guidance from the Holy Spirit.

                  Also, according to Scriptural accounts of false prophecy, divination is linked; in fact, some false prophecy is described as divination. So I believe that the idea of a spirit of divination being part of a false prophecy is quite consistent with Scripture.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PaulChristensen View Post

                    You make reasonable points.
                    I wasn't aware of a divination spirit accompanying a false prophecy until I heard the story of a couple of self-appointed "prophets" giving a personal word to a preacher that God has told them that he was going to be famous and wealthy, The preacher wasn't sure about it, so he put it 'on the back burner' to see what God said to him about it. Suddenly he developed severe back pain, and it persisted even after two surgeries to try and fix it. Then a colleague asked him if he had at any time anything to do with the occult. He preacher maintained that he hadn't - then he remembered the prophecy. His colleague told him to renounce it immediately because it was a divination spirit that was attacking him physically. The moment he renounced the prophecy, the back pain disappeared.

                    You might see the renunciation of the prophecy and the disappearance of the back pain as coincidence, but I took it as a fair warning not to accept personal prophecies that don't confirm what God has already told me in the normal course of routine guidance from the Holy Spirit.

                    Also, according to Scriptural accounts of false prophecy, divination is linked; in fact, some false prophecy is described as divination. So I believe that the idea of a spirit of divination being part of a false prophecy is quite consistent with Scripture.

                    Personally I would absolutely reject the idea that an evil spirit would be able to latch on like that while we follow the entirely Scriptural call to test things. I've heard all sorts of stories that sound remarkably but also sound like they are probably embellished at best. Frankly, I'm struggling to believe the story you're presenting here. If the preacher had been to see a medium or something that could be different - if you actively seek out occult powers you can hardly be surprised if they bite you - but if having some random person come up to you and say something exposes you to direct demonic attack that suggests the devil has all sorts of power over God's people. I'm not buying it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sonajero View Post


                      Personally I would absolutely reject the idea that an evil spirit would be able to latch on like that while we follow the entirely Scriptural call to test things. I've heard all sorts of stories that sound remarkably but also sound like they are probably embellished at best. Frankly, I'm struggling to believe the story you're presenting here. If the preacher had been to see a medium or something that could be different - if you actively seek out occult powers you can hardly be surprised if they bite you - but if having some random person come up to you and say something exposes you to direct demonic attack that suggests the devil has all sorts of power over God's people. I'm not buying it.
                      The devil or a demon will not go where they are not invited. They control unbelievers because the devil is "the god of this world". He has the freedom to control unbelievers because they are part of his kingdom of darkness anyway. But converted believers are taken out of that kingdom, and released from demonic control.

                      But, a demon can influence a believer if that believer does something that invites it, such as dabbling with the occult. If a believer takes part in a sťance then he or she is inviting the demon to have influence on him or her. In the same way, receiving a false prophecy from a lying spirit of divination, effectively invites the demon into that person's life.

                      The point here is that we treat unsolicited personal prophecies with a very long barge pole, ready to run away at the least suspicion of falsehood. There are those who are steeped in pride and arrogance, especially in Charismatic circles, who think that God is speaking directly to them about other people. They go around spreading their seeds of lies through their personal prophecies over unsuspecting and vulnerable people.

                      The person who told the story has no reason to lie about it. Why should they? They told the story to warn people not to receive personal prophecies from people they don't know, and which contain prediction of things that involve prosperity, fame, powerful ministry, and guaranteed health.

                      But then, if you choose to receive every personal prophecy that someone says over you, then so be it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PaulChristensen View Post

                        The devil or a demon will not go where they are not invited. They control unbelievers because the devil is "the god of this world". He has the freedom to control unbelievers because they are part of his kingdom of darkness anyway. But converted believers are taken out of that kingdom, and released from demonic control.

                        But, a demon can influence a believer if that believer does something that invites it, such as dabbling with the occult. If a believer takes part in a sťance then he or she is inviting the demon to have influence on him or her. In the same way, receiving a false prophecy from a lying spirit of divination, effectively invites the demon into that person's life.

                        The point here is that we treat unsolicited personal prophecies with a very long barge pole, ready to run away at the least suspicion of falsehood. There are those who are steeped in pride and arrogance, especially in Charismatic circles, who think that God is speaking directly to them about other people. They go around spreading their seeds of lies through their personal prophecies over unsuspecting and vulnerable people.

                        The person who told the story has no reason to lie about it. Why should they? They told the story to warn people not to receive personal prophecies from people they don't know, and which contain prediction of things that involve prosperity, fame, powerful ministry, and guaranteed health.

                        But then, if you choose to receive every personal prophecy that someone says over you, then so be it.
                        Here it looks like you're really twisting and turning, mixing and matching, trying to make a point that isn't really there.

                        Of course a Christian dabbling in the occult opens doors to undesirable things. That's not what we're talking about. Scripture calls us to test, so trying to say that we should just reject something out of hand fails right off the bat. Testing requires consideration, comparison, validation. The only way we can do those things is to consider something.

                        Perhaps it wouldn't take very long to figure that a "prophetic word" that claims God is going to bless someone with health and wealth is unlikely to have come from God. It seems equally absurd to think that taking a few moments to consider it would open the door to demons. It paints God in a really bad light if His followers are vulnerable to the demons we say are defeated just because some whack job preacher said something stupid and we didn't reject it fast enough.

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