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  • #16
    In regards to salvation.

    Faith alone by God's grace, is required for Justification, good deeds/works is not required to be justified in our Lord's eyes, but is EVIDENCE of the fruit of the True Vine and of Sanctification.
    It's important not to confuse or mix the 2 distinctions in Salvation which are; Justification and Sanctification.
    Justification and Sanctification is ALL by God. We can't say that we earned our salvation because of our "good works", for it is written, our good works are as an unclean and dirty cloth in His sight.

    Eph 2:8-9
    Jn 3:36
    Acts 16:31
    Rom 6:23
    Jn 3:16
    Mark 10:26-27, "26And they were astonished beyond measure, saying unto themselves, `And who is able to be saved?' 27And Jesus, having looked upon them, saith, `With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.'"

    The Holy Spirit Himself says through the Apostle, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." - Bold added by me.
    The Sacred Eloquence is clear that we are justified by faith, and not by faith and works.

    Whoever believes that he merits grace by works despises the merits and grace of Christ; Gal 5:4, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

    In regards to doing good works, it is necessary, because it is God's will and command that we do them, but this doesn't mean that we merit grace by good works (Eph 2:8-9).
    Eph 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

    Our God Jesus Christ says in Luke 17:10, "So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty." - Italics added by me.

    I'll end with the Augsburg Confession And Its Apology,

    "Therefore, it is easy to see that this doctrine is not to be accused of banning good works. Instead, it is to be commended all the more because it shows how we are enabled to do good works. For without faith, human nature cannot, in any way, do the works of the First and Second Commandment (1 Corinthians 2:14). Without faith, human nature does not call upon God, nor expect anything from Him, nor bear the cross (Matthew 16:24). Instead, human nature seeks and trusts in human help. So when there is no faith and trust in God, all kinds of lusts and human intentions rule in the heart (Genesis 6:5). This is why Christ says, "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (JOhn 15:5). (AC XX 27-39)" - Italics added by me.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by catholicdude View Post
      What "things" are these? I'm 100% sure that nothing Catholicism believes is against the Word of God. Give an example and I'll try to explain.

      Pax,
      Zach
      This may be long, but I start with the massive idolatry (Mary, the pope, saints, etc):
      Acts 17:29-30

      Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

      2 Kings 18:3-5

      He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called [b] Nehushtan. [c] )
      Hezekiah trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel. There was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, either before him or after him.


      Exodus 25:22
      There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

      Psalms 115:2

      Why do the nations say,
      "Where is their God?"

      3 Our God is in heaven;
      he does whatever pleases him.

      4 But their idols are silver and gold,
      made by the hands of men.

      5 They have mouths, but cannot speak,
      eyes, but they cannot see;

      6 they have ears, but cannot hear,
      noses, but they cannot smell;

      7 they have hands, but cannot feel,
      feet, but they cannot walk;
      nor can they utter a sound with their throats.

      8 Those who make them will be like them,
      and so will all who trust in them

      Also alot of the traditions:
      Ephesians 6:12

      For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

      Galatians 1:8

      But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

      2 Corinthians 11:13-15

      For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

      Colossians 2:8 (New International Version)

      8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

      There is also the worship of the pope, praying to saints, etc.

      Comment


      • #18
        Let me start by saying that you in fact ARE justified by your works, and that faith without works is dead. I'll show you...

        James 2:20-22;24-26

        "20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? . . . 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? 26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead."

        Please note that in both verses 21 and 24 it is said that first Abraham was justified by works, then, in 24, all men are justified by their works, and NOT faith only. We also see in this passage, that faith without works is dead and through works, faith is made perfect.

        Now, don't confuse what I'm saying, I do indeed believe that faith is needed, for SALVATION. It's just that, you can only have true faith if you follow Jesus' example and commit good works.

        I have also come to the conclusion, liefm, that when we refer to salvation, justification, etc., we are talking about different things. So, if it wouldn't trouble you, could you explain exactly what you mean by these terms? What exactly is justification and salvation to you?

        Thanks,
        Zach
        Matthew 6:34
        "34 So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

        Comment


        • #19
          I'm sorry that you were so misinformed, there is no idolatry in the Catholic Church.

          Idolatry is defined as:
          1) the worship of a physical object as a god
          2) immoderate attatchment or devotion to something
          (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Idolatry)

          First, let's look at the first definition. Let me start off by saying that there are many statues and paintings in every Catholic Church (that I've been to anyway), and, in some, there are kneelers in front of some statues for prayer. The thing is, prayer is all it is. When we pray to a saint, we ask for them to pray to God for us, you might ask why pray to a saint, why not pray to God? This is a legitimate question, and a whole different story, if you really want I can try to explain this too. But anyway, back to the topic. When we pray to a saint while kneeling in front of a statue, we are not praying to the statue, that's absurd. We pray to the person symbolized by the statue. It's similar to carrying around a picture of your family in your wallet/purse. You do not really think the picture itself is your family, but it aids you in remembering them. Statues of saints help of remember them and their lives, when we know the lives of the saints we can try to be like them and devote ourselves more to God just as they did.

          To summarize what I've said, the statues and paintings help us to remember who the statue or painting represents. By knowing the lives of saints we hope to be better Christians, and we ask for the saints to pray for us in this endeavor.

          Now, definition number two. As you may have seen, I bolded the word something in the definition. You may say that this doesn't mean anything, but on the contrary, it completely proves that there is no idolatry in the Catholic Church. Considering you take into account what Catholics really belive regarding the first definition, which I have told you. The word something refers to physical objects as opposed to the word someone that refers to humans. So when you know that Catholics do not worship objects as I have stated we can conclude that Catholics do not give immoderat attatchment or devotion to them either.

          As for your problem with traditions, I'll cover that in another post. I'm going to take a break for a little bit and get my brain back .

          Hope this helps,
          Zach
          Matthew 6:34
          "34 So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

          Comment


          • #20
            So how would a statue of a saint be any different than the golden calf, the golden calf was created to be just like the saint statues are to us. The difference between one of them and a picture in your wallet you would not pray to the picture. Exodus 20 says not to make idols of anything in HEAVEN above, also the Lord even says that he came on mount Horeb with no image so they would not make an idol out of him. Another thing is that Jesus said that ONLY he is the mediator between us and the Lord, so how would someone who is both dead and not even divine be able to handle of prayers when Jesus himeself is the only one. Another instance is the Mary and Jesus statues, especially the fact that Jesus would have looked nothing like that. Do you notice how Mary is always held above Jesus?

            The definition say devotion to something, devotion is showed by praying to statues, lighting candles to them, praying a rosery to Mary, lighting incents to them.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by unkerns View Post
              So how would a statue of a saint be any different than the golden calf, the golden calf was created to be just like the saint statues are to us. The difference between one of them and a picture in your wallet you would not pray to the picture. Exodus 20 says not to make idols of anything in HEAVEN above, also the Lord even says that he came on mount Horeb with no image so they would not make an idol out of him. Another thing is that Jesus said that ONLY he is the mediator between us and the Lord, so how would someone who is both dead and not even divine be able to handle of prayers when Jesus himeself is the only one. Another instance is the Mary and Jesus statues, especially the fact that Jesus would have looked nothing like that. Do you notice how Mary is always held above Jesus?

              The definition say devotion to something, devotion is showed by praying to statues, lighting candles to them, praying a rosery to Mary, lighting incents to them.
              It is different because the golden calf was actually being worshiped. We don't make idols out of statues because we do not worship a chunk of marble/plaster, we worship God alone. We pray to the person it represents, I can't stress that enough. We pray not to the statue, but to the person it represents.

              I agree that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. But, let me ask you something, if one of your parents ask you to pray for them (for whatever reason), would you? I would, but, isn't that being a mediator also? It is, but it isn't the same as Christs' mediatorship. Paul himself asked Christians to pray on his behalf, that's being a mediator. But this is a very miniscule mediatorship compared to Christs', our mediation completely depends on His mediation which is infinitely more powerful than anyone elses. While saints may be dead in flesh, the soul is immortal, it lives forever. The saints are closer to God than anyone on earth is and will be as long as they are still here. I sure don't think it would hurt to ask someone so close to God to pray for you, not at all.

              What exactly do you mean by Mary being held higher than Jesus? I don't really understand what you mean.

              As for your last comment, I have explained it again here. The prayers aren't to the statue, they are to the person represented by the statue.
              Matthew 6:34
              "34 So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

              Comment


              • #22
                Asking someone else to pray for you is intercessory not mediator. Abraham did it for lot, but his prayers went straight to the Lord not through someone else. Those saints are dead, they have a heavenly body. They have not been given divine power because that belongs to the Lord alone, and also by biblical definition I would be a saint as well.

                Heres the biggest question of all why even have statues, why bow down in front of them, light candles in front of them, light incents in front of them, pray the rosary? Did you know that the pope himself uses the mithras sun wheel for his symbol, did you know that there is an ashera pole in the middle of st peters square? If the Lord is nuber one then you dont need any statues or prayer cards. No need to pray to the saint of lost things anymore to find your stuff, because the Lord says only to pray to him.

                Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (New International Version)

                10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

                Then again many dont listen to the Lord even when its written in black and white:

                Jeremiah 44:16-18 (New International Version)

                16 "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."

                The last question was about catholic belief in Mary being the Queen of heaven and holding her higher in every aspect.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by catholicdude View Post
                  It is different because the golden calf was actually being worshiped. We don't make idols out of statues because we do not worship a chunk of marble/plaster, we worship God alone. We pray to the person it represents, I can't stress that enough. We pray not to the statue, but to the person it represents.
                  Exodus 20:1-4
                  Then God spoke all these words, saying,"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by unkerns View Post
                    Asking someone else to pray for you is intercessory not mediator. Abraham did it for lot, but his prayers went straight to the Lord not through someone else. Those saints are dead, they have a heavenly body. They have not been given divine power because that belongs to the Lord alone, and also by biblical definition I would be a saint as well.

                    Heres the biggest question of all why even have statues, why bow down in front of them, light candles in front of them, light incents in front of them, pray the rosary? Did you know that the pope himself uses the mithras sun wheel for his symbol, did you know that there is an ashera pole in the middle of st peters square? If the Lord is nuber one then you dont need any statues or prayer cards. No need to pray to the saint of lost things anymore to find your stuff, because the Lord says only to pray to him.

                    Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (New International Version)

                    10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.

                    Then again many dont listen to the Lord even when its written in black and white:

                    Jeremiah 44:16-18 (New International Version)

                    16 "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."

                    The last question was about catholic belief in Mary being the Queen of heaven and holding her higher in every aspect.
                    I used the term mediator in my last post because you thought I was saying that saints are equal mediators with Christ, which I don't believe. Christ is the one and only mediator, I was merely showing that what the saints do is to a very limited extent mediation, but nothing compared to the mediation of Christ. Intercessory is indeed the correct term which Catholics do use, I was just trying to use the word mediator to illustrate a point. A point I obviously didn't make very clear. Catholics also do not think that saints have divine power, they obviously can hear our prayers and give them to God according to the Book of Revelation:

                    Rev. 5:8

                    "8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints."

                    This verse shows that the saints in heaven offer up the prayers of the saints on earth to Christ.


                    Why use statues? Because God in fact does instruct the making of statues, just not to the point of worship. Catholics do not worship statues as I have shown several times. Here is some scriptural warrant for my accusations:

                    Ex. 25:18-20

                    "18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered."

                    Num. 21:8-9

                    "8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed."

                    1 Chr. 28:18-19

                    "18 And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord. 19 All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern."

                    All three of these instances God instucts them to create something of likeness to something in heaven or on earth. But as I've said many times before, until the point of worship, when people begin to worship these objects is when God becomes angered. Catholics DO NOT worship anyone/thing but God alone.

                    Bowing/kneeling in front of a statue is nothing more than a praying posture. The candles and inscence (sp.?) has to do with Rev. 5:8 I think, not completely sure. About the rosary, I'm assuming you have the typical Protestant view of the rosary which seems to be, wow, ten Hail Mary's for every one Our Father? They must adore Mary more than God! This notion is wholly untrue, the purpose of the rosary is to help us meditate on the life of Christ. That's what we are doing the entire time we recite a rosary, meditating on Christs' life. Ok, for the mithras sun wheel comment, I think you are refering to the picture above the alter in St. Peter's Basilica (correct me if I'm wrong). If this is the case, you are mistaken. This image is actually a representation of the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove exuding rays of light, I'm pretty sure Protestants use the dove motif as well, don't they? That's not an asherah pole in the middle of St. Peter's Square, all it is is an obelisk. Nothing more and nothing less. The Lord is number one and should be prayed to, but, nothing in scripture says that you cannot pray to anyone but the Lord. The fact that sems to be overlooked here is that praying to Mary and the saints is not even a Church doctrine that everyone has to believe, you can believe in it if you want ( It certainly can't hurt ), but no one in the Church has ever said that every member has to pray to Mary and the saints.

                    The quote from Deutoronomy is being taken out of context, as you can plainly see, the text is refering to people that try to communicate with the dead by means of crystal balls and the like. This is an abomination to God and should not be practiced, but it is not the same as prayer. Also, what do you think the word "consults" means? In other translations, it reads "seeks oracles from the dead" -NAB and "seeketh the truth from the dead" -DR. As you can see, this has nothing to do with praying to the dead, but seeking God's truth from them and not from Him.

                    As for your quote from Jeremiah, the "Queen of Heaven" that the Egyptians are talking about is actually the moon, which they worshiped. This explains why they had "perished by sword and famine."

                    Hold her higher than who? God? If that's the case, I can tell you it's not true, please give an example.

                    Zach

                    P.S. This is also an answer to your post Xel'Naga
                    Last edited by catholicdude; Dec 28th 2008, 09:16 AM. Reason: Unediting
                    Matthew 6:34
                    "34 So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by catholicdude View Post
                      Rev. 5:8

                      "8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of the saints."

                      This verse shows that the saints in heaven offer up the prayers of the saints on earth to Christ.
                      This one verse alone does not show what you claim it does.

                      Originally posted by catholicdude View Post
                      Why use statues? Because God in fact does instruct the making of statues, just not to the point of worship. Catholics do not worship statues as I have shown several times. Here is some scriptural warrant for my accusations:

                      Ex. 25:18-20

                      "18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered."

                      Num. 21:8-9

                      "8 And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed."

                      1 Chr. 28:18-19

                      "18 And for the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the cherubims spreading their wings, and covering the ark of the covenant of the Lord. 19 All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern."

                      All three of these instances God instucts them to create something of likeness to something in heaven or on earth. But as I've said many times before, until the point of worship, when people begin to worship these objects is when God becomes angered. Catholics DO NOT worship anyone/thing but God alone.


                      Exodus 25 - ark of the covenant (not a statue)
                      Numbers 21 - bronze serpent (statuesque)
                      1 Chronicles 28 - the temple of the Lord (not a statue)

                      Your examples don't really hold up that well. It would be like quoting the New Testament passage where the Holy Spirit is described as a dove, saying, "Look, the Holy Spirit is given the image of a dove" and then writing a book and describing the Holy Spirit as an Asian woman, when scripture says not to do such a thing. God can do such a thing; we can't. However...

                      It really doesn't matter that your comparisons don't hold as the scripture I posted is quite clearly in regards only to God (don't make any images of God, not, "don't make any images"). For instance, don't create a gold calf, designate it the "god which brought us out of Egypt" and start worshiping it either as a calf (god itself) or as a representation of the God (YHWH) that did in fact bring you out of Egypt. So unless a church is making representations of God, I'm not all that concerned.

                      If unkerns wants to debate with you regarding prayers offered to the "saints," then that is something he can occupy himself with. The difficulty you're going to have is defending the practice without promoting Catholic doctrine and quite frankly... Someone should let the Catholic church know that Jesus opened the way for direct communication between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). There's no need to pray to a dead "saint" (I wouldn't call them saints) who can't hear you anyway.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Xel'Naga View Post
                        It would be like quoting the New Testament passage where the Holy Spirit is described as a dove, saying, "Look, the Holy Spirit is given the image of a dove" and then writing a book and describing the Holy Spirit as an Asian woman,
                        Lol, the Shack.
                        "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
                        -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

                        "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

                        Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Revinius View Post
                          Lol, the Shack.
                          My mom came to talk to me the other day, horrified after hearing an interview with the author of the Shack. She left perplexed, wondering why I own such books.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Coming back to this thread, I do have a question (if you are still around)

                            At another forum the inevitable Gay Marriage debate came up, only in the disguise of California passing Proposition 8 (banning of gay marriage). The entire debate was going well until a Catholic came in and said that Gay marriage is technically ok in Catholicism, but the actual 'homosexual sex' was not ok. Thus Catholicism looks down on Gay marriage as bad only because it promotes 'homosexual sex'-which is the only sin pertaining to Gay people.

                            From all that, this is what I understood:
                            • Homosexuality is not a sin
                            • The only true sin is homosexual sex (with context)
                            • It is technically ok to be a homosexual that is married, as long as you don't have sex


                            Note-The person could not provide any scripture to back up his claims.

                            So, I guess a little clarity on the Catholic Church's position would be great, and their reasonings (ie. Scriptural proof) of such a belief.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              You answered your own question: GOD instructs them to create these things, everything else that MAN created was considered idols. The Lord even had the serpent staff destroyed 2 Kings 18:3-5

                              He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.

                              As for Revelation not only is that book impossible for us to interpret, but in no way points to praying to the saints.

                              As for the scripture about talking to the dead: remember when Saul consulted a medium and talked to Elijah? Do you remember hoe mad Elijah was? Its in the book, dont consult with the dead.

                              Also when I was catholic I prayed the holy Mary's, the belief is that you wont have pain in your death by doing so (for some reason people think she has that power). Just like the scapular which catholics believe will save you even from the worst of sins just by wearing, I dont believe in worshipping the dove or crosses either, they are images as well That isnt even the cross that Jesus was crucified, the type they used for his crucifixion was in the shape of a T it was the only thing functional during that time.

                              It is true that you dont have to pray to Mary, but it is catholic doctrine that she is the queen of heaven, which the bible does not support and before you bring up Revelation, the stars can represent the angels of the churchs and much more and again it is Revelation and cannot be fully translated.

                              Also most catholic sanctuaries have statues of her all around, sometimes she holds a baby Jesus, and thats about it for their statues unless they got a couple of saints around, or how about the massive marches with her statue done around the world, and in most catholic paintings Mary is usually in front and Jesus in back or of course as a baby.

                              Now as for the scripture about Jeremiah that was not brought up about Mary, but just as an instance in history.

                              Oh and im not protestant, I dont do religion

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by unkerns View Post
                                The first book is about all religion, but its not against the Lord, but for him. It shows the historical transformation from the church of Acts to what we can now. Amazing story, but after reading the bible I saw things that catholicism believed in that was even against the word.

                                How is the knowledge of the truth known only by you, that you know for certain that Catholicism is false? What is your authority, besides your own mind and your own interpretation? Read 2 Peter 1:20, and Acts 8:30-31. You need a Church with apostolic authority in order to correctly interpret Scripture. Only apostles are given the authority to interpret Scripture, and their successors. Otherwise, you are one who values your own opinions before the Truth; you are allowed to make Christianity whatever you please and you enslave God to your own whims.

                                Are you aware that there are people who have dedicated their entire lives to the study of the Bible - monks, religious - who have not found contradiction but affirmation that the Catholic Church is the Truth? How long have you studied the Bible, and how far in depth, that you can say that "it is against the Word"? How is it that these things have been revealed to you? What authority do you trust in to interpret the Bible? The eunuch in the passage from Acts read the Bible but needed an interpreter; beyond that, the letter from Peter states that some things in Scripture are difficult to interpret and therefore one needs an authority - otherwise one will be led astray, as you yourself have been.

                                Have you read writings from the early Christians? Irenaeus? Ignatius? Augustine? Eusebius? Or perhaps you do not think they are Christians because you have your own idea of Christianity.

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