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  • Is chivalry dead?

    This might sound strange coming from a guy but does antone else think this age old practice (of practising certain behaviour towards ladies) has become obsolete to people? I'm not basing this on the fact that some guys dont do tthins stuff anymore but it seems the ladies dont appreciate it. Its seemed from personal experience that many women tend to appreciate the guys who treat them lke ladies less than those guys who more or less dont even bother.

    I got many examples but heres a good one- ther was a woman i worked with who'd ask me to do her favours if i happened to be in the area, ie plug this in etc. And i'd do it- no bother, her wearing a dress or skirt, it'd be a bit difficult. Then later we get a staff outing and i hear her say to others in a rather contemptuous tone that when she looks at me she thinks, i'm soft and she could make me do anything she wants (obvioulsy the last time i do anything for her)

    And i noticed it in alot of other ways from other different people- we using chairs in a place, its usually the SINGLE GUYS who end up carrying the chairs for the girls who ARE IN RELATIONSHIPS. while their boyfriends stand aside and talk or do whatever. it even got so bad i saw a girl ask a guy to do something for her while her boyfriend was right there doing nothing. But yet in all, they still act like the guys who dont do anything for them are soooo much more than the guys who actually do. (I used to be one of them till i wisened up) And that was a "nice" example
    Anyone else notice this. Forgive me if i sound bitter or mysogynistic but its something that puzzles and angers me, since it seemed i was one of the helpful ones but seemingly got no appreciation until i decided to forget it all.

  • #2
    If you are hunting for conquests it would seem that in the falllen world of dating, that women are attracted to the "bad boy" image. If you are looking for a mate it is best not to trick them and make them believe you are something that you are not. Reflect Christ and attract the kind of woman that as a Christian you will appreciate and who will appreciate you.

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    • #3
      No, we just got old...
      For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

      If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

      Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with Gregg.I honestly do not think it's *dead*.I do think however that chivalry has a time and place.Throughout time the badboy act has had its momentum and always will.Some women do prejudge men who practise chivalry as nice guys/ softies. However I think some women need to appreciate this facet of men and embrace it, rather than put us down or mock us seeing that alot of guys nowadays want to practise the badboy routine.There are women out there who notice chivalry and pay respect to it.Keep this in mind, a woman notices a jerk and she also notices a good man.As Gregg said, be who you are.For the women who mock you b/c of your chivalry, pay them no mind, they don't know what a good man is

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Gregg View Post
          If you are hunting for conquests it would seem that in the fallen world of dating, that women are attracted to the "bad boy" image. If you are looking for a mate it is best not to trick them and make them believe you are something that you are not. Reflect Christ and attract the kind of woman that as a Christian you will appreciate and who will appreciate you.
          Oh i don't necessarily want them. Alot are already taken , but what gets me is how my niceness gets ignored and all the while, they bow down and worship the guys who treat them like dirt.

          I saw a guy in a conversation with his buddy abt sports, a girl who liked him stood right next to him and he completely ignored her as if she werent there. I saw her standing there looking alone and bit ignored and to be nice i went over to keep her company. I get a completely icy reaction (i.e 1 word answers and no imput to continue a conversation showing that she didnt want to hear anythnig from me), so i left Coming back i still see her there getting totally ignored but still not moving, so i had a good little laugh- If u wanna be ignored by him rather than have me show some concern or interest then stay there. That guy did that more than once and she still went on to hook up with him leading to even more stuff, which i still snicker at.

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          • #6
            Maybe you're being too nice?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by motormouf View Post
              Oh i don't necessarily want them. Alot are already taken , but what gets me is how my niceness gets ignored and all the while, they bow down and worship the guys who treat them like dirt.

              I saw a guy in a conversation with his buddy abt sports, a girl who liked him stood right next to him and he completely ignored her as if she werent there. I saw her standing there looking alone and bit ignored and to be nice i went over to keep her company. I get a completely icy reaction (i.e 1 word answers and no imput to continue a conversation showing that she didnt want to hear anythnig from me), so i left Coming back i still see her there getting totally ignored but still not moving, so i had a good little laugh- If u wanna be ignored by him rather than have me show some concern or interest then stay there. That guy did that more than once and she still went on to hook up with him leading to even more stuff, which i still snicker at.
              So you were playing the nice guy card to attract another man's woman? My guess would be that you had a little "visual crush" on her so you took your shot using your best tools. It didn't work (which is not a bad thing). Keep pitching, all guys get turned down (some more than others) until we find a good fit. It doesn't hurt to ask God to help you in your quest.

              God bless you and yours.

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              • #8
                There are 3 types of men in this world (and yes I am generalising):

                -There are Soft men, men who are so darn nice you just can't stand them (Ned Flanders is a good stereotype example). While they are good in the sense that they don't do much wrong, there is still much more to chivalry than being nice. Women don't tend to fall for these guys as there is very little that is romantic about 'nice'. The ones that do, tend to be women that have had a bad experience with the second kind of man.

                - There are men that have a kind of show of strength but they don't use it for good. This is a broad catergory but it comprises of people who pretend to be a 'tough guy', men that have a mean streak, men that are unneccessarily violent, men who are strong headed, and men that like to rebel (in the wrong way). Essentially they are men who seem to be strong and romantic, until you realise that they are only really out to please themselves. Women often tend to fall for these guys either because they are decieved as to their true nature, or that they don't realise that the third type of man exists.

                - God's man. This is got so much more to it than what people often think of when they talk about a godly man. These are men who are nice, but they are so much more as well. They love others with a never failing passion, they have a strong desire to live for God and they are willing to brave anything to do it, and lastly- they are wild, exciting and not confined by their fears and what the world says they can or can't do because they put their trust completely and utterly in God.

                The first kind of man bores women, they are often unwilling to step outside of their comfort zone, and while they may be minding their manners and trying not to upset people they are actually living very ungodly lives. The second kind of man abuses women, doesn't appreciate the woman in their life for who she is and lives a life bent upon pleasing himself. The third kind of man, is passionate, loving, brave and invites women (but chooses one!) into the adventure God has set for them.

                Don't live nice, don't live badass- live Christ.
                He's charging into hell and bringing heaven with him!- Rob Bell

                "So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir" - Paul - Galations 4:7

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Friend of Jesus View Post
                  There are 3 types of men in this world (and yes I am generalising):

                  -There are Soft men, men who are so darn nice you just can't stand them (Ned Flanders is a good stereotype example). While they are good in the sense that they don't do much wrong, there is still much more to chivalry than being nice. Women don't tend to fall for these guys as there is very little that is romantic about 'nice'. The ones that do, tend to be women that have had a bad experience with the second kind of man.

                  - There are men that have a kind of show of strength but they don't use it for good. This is a broad catergory but it comprises of people who pretend to be a 'tough guy', men that have a mean streak, men that are unneccessarily violent, men who are strong headed, and men that like to rebel (in the wrong way). Essentially they are men who seem to be strong and romantic, until you realise that they are only really out to please themselves. Women often tend to fall for these guys either because they are decieved as to their true nature, or that they don't realise that the third type of man exists.

                  - God's man. This is got so much more to it than what people often think of when they talk about a godly man. These are men who are nice, but they are so much more as well. They love others with a never failing passion, they have a strong desire to live for God and they are willing to brave anything to do it, and lastly- they are wild, exciting and not confined by their fears and what the world says they can or can't do because they put their trust completely and utterly in God.

                  The first kind of man bores women, they are often unwilling to step outside of their comfort zone, and while they may be minding their manners and trying not to upset people they are actually living very ungodly lives. The second kind of man abuses women, doesn't appreciate the woman in their life for who she is and lives a life bent upon pleasing himself. The third kind of man, is passionate, loving, brave and invites women (but chooses one!) into the adventure God has set for them.

                  Don't live nice, don't live badass- live Christ.
                  WOOT

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Friend of Jesus View Post
                    Don't live nice, don't live badass- live Christ.
                    exactly.

                    my brother has told me the reason I never make it past "just friends" with every woman I'm interested in, is because I don't treat her poorly.
                    (I pray for my brother everyday, btw).
                    that I could just exploit most girls need to gain acceptance from a male figure, by being mean and never letting them feel accepted completely.
                    (this is what he got out of psych classes? seriously?).

                    well, I refuse to manipulate people that way.

                    I think the ability to appreciate kindness is a desirable quality, and if it's the Lord's will, I'll find a woman that does.

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                    • #11
                      I dated my wife for five solid weeks before I even attempted to kiss her at the end of a date. I was polite, I opened doors, I gave her flowers, etc. I also happen to have the best wife any guy could ever ask for. And just in case you think it is not odd, it wasn't in the 70's, that was in 1998.

                      Now granted, I did have the bad boy appeal because I was bouncing and body guarding, but I treated her with nothing but respect. Would you really want a girl that wants to be treated like crap? That only says one thing to me..."BAGGAGE!"
                      For what mortal has ever heard the voice of the living God speaking out of fire, as we have, and survived? ~ Deuteronomy 5:26

                      If you're not prepared to risk your very life for your "enemy" you have no right to speak to him of love. ~ Daughter

                      Many say they are called... but I am pretty convinced that with many of them it was the wrong number. ~ Project Peter

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gregg View Post
                        So you were playing the nice guy card to attract another man's woman? My guess would be that you had a little "visual crush" on her so you took your shot using your best tools. It didn't work (which is not a bad thing). Keep pitching, all guys get turned down (some more than others) until we find a good fit. It doesn't hurt to ask God to help you in your quest.

                        God bless you and yours.

                        No i was just raised to be helpful and at 1st chivalry seems stupid but i gradually started showing it as a means of self improvement.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Friend of Jesus View Post
                          There are 3 types of men in this world (and yes I am generalising):

                          -There are Soft men, men who are so darn nice you just can't stand them (Ned Flanders is a good stereotype example). While they are good in the sense that they don't do much wrong, there is still much more to chivalry than being nice. Women don't tend to fall for these guys as there is very little that is romantic about 'nice'. The ones that do, tend to be women that have had a bad experience with the second kind of man.


                          - There are men that have a kind of show of strength but they don't use it for good. This is a broad catergory but it comprises of people who pretend to be a 'tough guy', men that have a mean streak, men that are unneccessarily violent, men who are strong headed, and men that like to rebel (in the wrong way). Essentially they are men who seem to be strong and romantic, until you realise that they are only really out to please themselves. Women often tend to fall for these guys either because they are decieved as to their true nature, or that they don't realise that the third type of man exists.

                          - God's man. This is got so much more to it than what people often think of when they talk about a godly man. These are men who are nice, but they are so much more as well. They love others with a never failing passion, they have a strong desire to live for God and they are willing to brave anything to do it, and lastly- they are wild, exciting and not confined by their fears and what the world says they can or can't do because they put their trust completely and utterly in God.
                          The first kind of man bores women, they are often unwilling to step outside of their comfort zone, and while they may be minding their manners and trying not to upset people they are actually living very ungodly lives. The second kind of man abuses women, doesn't appreciate the woman in their life for who she is and lives a life bent upon pleasing himself. The third kind of man, is passionate, loving, brave and invites women (but chooses one!) into the adventure God has set for them.

                          Don't live nice, don't live badass- live Christ.
                          Number 3 makes absolutely no sense to me- These are men who are nice, but they are so much more as well. They love others with a never failing passion, they have a strong desire to live for God and they are willing to brave anything to do it, and lastly- they are wild, exciting and not confined by their fears and what the world says they can or can't do because they put their trust completely and utterly in God.The third kind of man, is passionate, loving, brave and invites women (but chooses one!) into the adventure God has set for them.

                          All i can say is HUH??????? Sounds like something outta some Christian romance novels or something

                          But thanks, now that I see my niceness is generally repulsive I got all the justification i need to become a heartless unhelpful heel. I guess itll make like alot easier for me. Lets see what happens now shall we

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                          • #14
                            I wrote the following poem in a bad moment like what I believe you're feeling now.

                            Requiem for Chivalry
                            The knights are all gone.
                            The cads and the scoundrels have won
                            The hearts of the ladies,
                            As the horses starve and the armor rusts
                            And the lowly knights gaze at the busts
                            Of their fallen heroes.
                            Arthur and Launcelot are now mere dust,
                            Their fame and romances covered in must.

                            Dames and ladies pine and wail,
                            Yet they make their beds cold and stale,
                            As villains and vermin steal their hearts,
                            Then rape them and pierce them with fiery darts.
                            The knights must merely watch from afar,
                            Caged from healing what the devils mar.
                            Damsels continue to be in distress,
                            Yet push knights away when under duress.
                            They cry for someone to come save the day,
                            Yet run with swift feet to death and decay.

                            The knights walk abroad with sword and shield,
                            Ready to force all the pain to yield.
                            But when cries reach their ears,
                            They are bidden to tears.
                            For dames love their blights,
                            More than well-meaning knights,
                            Ulterior motives,
                            More than romantic votives,
                            Lust and deception,
                            More than love and affection.


                            I recently read it to a group of female friends at my wife's belated bridal shower.
                            The unanimous, almost synchronized response:
                            "So true."

                            Women realize they're pushing the good guys away and running to the guys who will hurt them.

                            I believe they do so because (no matter how strong a person they are) they feel a need for a strong male in their life.
                            To many women, the guys who practice chivalry make great friends.
                            But they do not seem to radiate the level of strength and masculinity a guy who out-and-out ignores or abuses them exudes.

                            If chivalry is dead, women killed it.
                            However, it is not dead IMO.

                            The problem lies in women treating it as their due (from lower males, not potential mates), and thus not rewarding it in any way.

                            Men treat it as an expression of love or attraction or at least courtesy, requiring a specific effort and committment on their part, and when no reward comes, grow discouraged and either hesitate to continue the behavior, or cease altogether.

                            The point, then, is what do you do about it?
                            Remain consistent in your chivalrous, courteous behavior, but add passion to your attempts at courting.
                            Show that you have emotional strength for them to depend on, passion which can potentially flare at any time, AND constant compassion, courtesy, and chivalry.
                            BUT do not fling yourself emotionally nor wear your heart on your sleeve.
                            Keep your passion and deep romance smouldering beneath the surface, even as you speak and act light and casual.

                            THEN, after doing all this, BE PATIENT.
                            I guarantee that at LEAST the first 100 women you find yourself infatuated with are NOT wife-material, or perhaps even date-material.

                            Keep your eyes and mind open, and know that great dating relationships can be had even without mate-hunting, and that God brings women into our lives for a reason, even if they don't stay in our lives forever.

                            Also, personal experience:
                            My wife and I first met online. God works in mysterious ways.
                            Always give God credit first.

                            "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
                            -Sir Toby, Twelfth Night by William Shakespeare

                            James 1:19

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by motormouf View Post
                              Number 3 makes absolutely no sense to me- These are men who are nice, but they are so much more as well. They love others with a never failing passion, they have a strong desire to live for God and they are willing to brave anything to do it, and lastly- they are wild, exciting and not confined by their fears and what the world says they can or can't do because they put their trust completely and utterly in God.The third kind of man, is passionate, loving, brave and invites women (but chooses one!) into the adventure God has set for them.

                              All i can say is HUH??????? Sounds like something outta some Christian romance novels or something

                              But thanks, now that I see my niceness is generally repulsive I got all the justification i need to become a heartless unhelpful heel. I guess itll make like alot easier for me. Lets see what happens now shall we
                              NOOOOO!!!! I am NOT saying live like a heartless unhelpful heel! And neither am I being a hopeless Christian romantic!

                              Let me show you what I mean biblically:

                              What kind of man was David. Was he a nice man- yes that much is obvious but he was so much more than that. Was he a heartless man- no, read any of the psalms and see just how big hearted this guy was. What he was, was God's man "a man after my own heart". He was a warrior, he wrestled bears with his own hands and won, and he trusted God to give him the victory over Goliath, the most fearsome man in all Philistine. And that was before he became king.

                              Now let's look at Jesus. Nice doesn't quite cover it here, compassionate or loving would be more suited to the man of all men. And yet, when he saw people defiling his Father's temple he didn't ask them to nicely leave, but he threw all of their merchant stands over, ruining some of their livelihoods and drove them out of the temple with a whip. Also, Jesus can hardly be called boring, because he was in such a close relationship with the Father, wherever he went, the unexpected happened. I don't think anybody ever accused Jesus of needing to 'liven up' or start being rude to break the mold. I think they were too busy standing mouth open or praising God. Jesus wasn't a soft man, neither was he a man with a heart of stone- he was God's man.

                              What I am getting at, is that there are times to put others before yourself and love other people. But that should not diminish the fierceness that you show towards God's enemies (all that is evil) and neither should that make you boring- In fact, it should make you considerably more exciting than the number 2 man whose life is based upon a "ME ME ME" philosophy.
                              He's charging into hell and bringing heaven with him!- Rob Bell

                              "So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir" - Paul - Galations 4:7

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