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  • Iím a disaster

    If this is in the wrong place, please move it.

    I joined a few days ago. My life is a mess. I donít what to believe anymore. I donít know how to come back from where I am, or if I believe itís possible. Iím either in a crisis of faith and headed to apostasy, or in an existential crisis headed to utter despair. There is no way to include everything, Iíll try to be brief. Here goes.

    Iím 51. I met my wife when we were teenagers. Shortly after I met her, she shared with me she had been ďhurtĒ by her older brother. I had no idea at the time the extent (let your mind go to the darkest possible scenarios). Big Chris loves a rescue, so I was the knight. Eventually we married, and had kids. I have four now, 25, 23, 18 and 12. The children mean more to me than they probably should. My wife began to exhibit mental health issues in her mid 20s. Suicide attempts, personality disorder. We toughed it out for years. She has BPD and was abusive at times, and I didnít respond well. In 2011 she told me she was babysitting for a couple we knew 12 years earlier. The husband had the wife leave with the children, and made a sexual advance at my wife. She went into what the psychiatrists describe as tonic immobility. The pain of her childhood was back as she couldnít fight, just as sheíd been trained as a child. So a rape to add on to her pain and suffering. She then told me of the level of the atrocities committed on her body by her brother. The next 7 years were filled with one mental hospital stay after another, and she was ultimately diagnosed with PTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, and a sleep disorder from hyper vigilance. We no longer went to church as the memories sheíd blocked came back, and she could no longer be around people. Thereís volumes more but now we are facing a long term stay in a facility.

    I lost any connection to God along the way, stopped praying, and lived from crisis to crisis. Iíve had much anger towards any idea of God, but Gos was always a failsafe in the back of my mind. The last 7-8 years are a blur. Iím very close to my children. Iím closest to my 18 year old, who went away to college last fall. Somehow we got on the topic of evolution, about which I was undereducated. So I looked into it with the idea I would convince her otherwise. Instead Iíve been sucked in and now nothing makes sense but evolution and random sadness. I should have known better as I have OCD and can dwell on things to the extent that baffles even therapists. She doesnít know this has happened to me as a result of this, and she seems to be quite well adjusted to her atheism. But this has stripped me of everything I believed in. I no longer have the hope of seeing my wifeís glorified body, and of justice finally coming to those who hurt her, as Iím struggling with the very concept of God. I no longer see any meaning in life. The science looks so real, and for me, if Genesis isnít literal, the whole construct comes down.

    So here I am. Without the hope of afterlife. Without an intimate relationship with my wife or God. And with a mortal, terrifying fear of death and nothingness that goes back to my childhood. Big Chris is a big tough guy on the outside. Heís a mess on the inside. I donít know if thereís any going back now that evolution seems so real, and atheism sprouts from it. The more I look the more convincing it is, and the creationist arguments seem so logically weak. So here I am.

  • #2
    Re: Iím a disaster

    First, Chris, welcome to the Bibleforums. Secondly, my heart hurts for you, your wife, and your children.

    Thirdly, we are not professionals, only Christian laypeople, so we can offer no medical advice and take all counsel a friendly, but non professional.

    With that being said, you are not the only one who has taken a tailspin into the abyss of doubt and disbelief because of pain.

    I'm a Christian who also taught science for many years in the public school system. I love genuine and true science and I love Christ and believe the Bible, every word. But I would suggest that for these first few posts, let's set aside Creation vs. Evolution.

    You've been very honest here about your doubts/fears. Have you taken them also to God and told him in detail what's happening to you? God already knows but prayer can help tremendously. He asked us to cast our care on him. And Psalm 72:12 says that God will hear our cries when we cry out to him.

    Tell God everything you've told us here. Read it - prayerfully - to God. Ask him for his tremendous mercies. That's step #1. Why God wants us to pray - I'll never know. But his word commands us to and Jesus taught us to. It's important.

    We are here to listen and talk about anything.
    sigpic
    ".....it's your nickel"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Iím a disaster

      Originally posted by Bigchris View Post
      If this is in the wrong place, please move it.

      I joined a few days ago. My life is a mess. I don’t what to believe anymore. I don’t know how to come back from where I am, or if I believe it’s possible. I’m either in a crisis of faith and headed to apostasy, or in an existential crisis headed to utter despair. There is no way to include everything, I’ll try to be brief. Here goes.

      I’m 51. I met my wife when we were teenagers. Shortly after I met her, she shared with me she had been “hurt” by her older brother. I had no idea at the time the extent (let your mind go to the darkest possible scenarios). Big Chris loves a rescue, so I was the knight. Eventually we married, and had kids. I have four now, 25, 23, 18 and 12. The children mean more to me than they probably should. My wife began to exhibit mental health issues in her mid 20s. Suicide attempts, personality disorder. We toughed it out for years. She has BPD and was abusive at times, and I didn’t respond well. In 2011 she told me she was babysitting for a couple we knew 12 years earlier. The husband had the wife leave with the children, and made a sexual advance at my wife. She went into what the psychiatrists describe as tonic immobility. The pain of her childhood was back as she couldn’t fight, just as she’d been trained as a child. So a rape to add on to her pain and suffering. She then told me of the level of the atrocities committed on her body by her brother. The next 7 years were filled with one mental hospital stay after another, and she was ultimately diagnosed with PTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, and a sleep disorder from hyper vigilance. We no longer went to church as the memories she’d blocked came back, and she could no longer be around people. There’s volumes more but now we are facing a long term stay in a facility.

      I lost any connection to God along the way, stopped praying, and lived from crisis to crisis. I’ve had much anger towards any idea of God, but Gos was always a failsafe in the back of my mind. The last 7-8 years are a blur. I’m very close to my children. I’m closest to my 18 year old, who went away to college last fall. Somehow we got on the topic of evolution, about which I was undereducated. So I looked into it with the idea I would convince her otherwise. Instead I’ve been sucked in and now nothing makes sense but evolution and random sadness. I should have known better as I have OCD and can dwell on things to the extent that baffles even therapists. She doesn’t know this has happened to me as a result of this, and she seems to be quite well adjusted to her atheism. But this has stripped me of everything I believed in. I no longer have the hope of seeing my wife’s glorified body, and of justice finally coming to those who hurt her, as I’m struggling with the very concept of God. I no longer see any meaning in life. The science looks so real, and for me, if Genesis isn’t literal, the whole construct comes down.

      So here I am. Without the hope of afterlife. Without an intimate relationship with my wife or God. And with a mortal, terrifying fear of death and nothingness that goes back to my childhood. Big Chris is a big tough guy on the outside. He’s a mess on the inside. I don’t know if there’s any going back now that evolution seems so real, and atheism sprouts from it. The more I look the more convincing it is, and the creationist arguments seem so logically weak. So here I am.
      I don’t know if there’s any going back now that evolution seems so real, and atheism sprouts from it. The more I look the more convincing it is, and the creationist arguments seem so logically weak. So here I am.
      [/QUOTE]

      Hey Chris, thanks sharing your story. Sounds like you have had a rough go. If I can help with any questions, start a thread in apologetics re:your above quote, I would be happy to give you my take.

      This scripture jumped at out me for you.

      He says, “Be still, and know that I am God;
      I will be exalted among the nations,
      I will be exalted in the earth.” Psalm 46:10
      ďAĒ cannot be ďAĒ & not ďAĒ at the same time.

      מקום כניעה סך הכל

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Iím a disaster

        Originally posted by Bigchris View Post
        So here I am. Without the hope of afterlife. Without an intimate relationship with my wife or God. And with a mortal, terrifying fear of death and nothingness that goes back to my childhood. Big Chris is a big tough guy on the outside. Heís a mess on the inside. I donít know if thereís any going back now that evolution seems so real, and atheism sprouts from it. The more I look the more convincing it is, and the creationist arguments seem so logically weak. So here I am.
        BC, it might be a blur from the start to where you are now, but you made it to now with the support of your faith. Let's label that "belief in God" for now. Because BC is a tough guy, he never really needed to work very much on His belief in God to enjoy the commensurate strength. If there were beds to be laid in that BC made, no big deal.

        Meanwhile, the enemy has not been sleeping. The enemy understands that if he could strip you of our belief in God then your house would fall. Where you are now is only different because your underpinning (lets call it a Worldview) has come under attack and your basis for ALL information processing is "under repair".

        This is what happens when something like evolution is allowed to slip past the gates of our not very much work on "belief in God".

        Time to get to work. It would have been best to study "Creation" first instead of evolution. But the good news is that evolution is pretty much a fairy tale where it matters, and where it matters is the creation (or for the benefit of educators, formation) of the first life and for evidence that Darwinism really can account for the information necessary to build even a simple single celled life form. Note that our bodies have trillions of cells, and there just isn't a good accounting for how that could have been built FROM AN ATHEISTIC VIEWPOINT, which is a materialist worldview.

        Time to get back to Church too. Don't overdo the search, but do be a little bit picky.

        Blessings,
        Watchinginawe

        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Iím a disaster

          BC, find the time to watch the most of this as you can.

          Watchinginawe

          I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Iím a disaster

            Originally posted by watchinginawe View Post
            BC, find the time to watch the most of this as you can.
            I know you didn't post this for me, but it was quite interesting. Thank you for that.

            Aristarkos

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Iím a disaster

              Originally posted by Bigchris View Post
              If this is in the wrong place, please move it.

              I joined a few days ago. My life is a mess. I don’t what to believe anymore. I don’t know how to come back from where I am, or if I believe it’s possible. I’m either in a crisis of faith and headed to apostasy, or in an existential crisis headed to utter despair. There is no way to include everything, I’ll try to be brief. Here goes.

              I’m 51. I met my wife when we were teenagers. Shortly after I met her, she shared with me she had been “hurt” by her older brother. I had no idea at the time the extent (let your mind go to the darkest possible scenarios). Big Chris loves a rescue, so I was the knight. Eventually we married, and had kids. I have four now, 25, 23, 18 and 12. The children mean more to me than they probably should. My wife began to exhibit mental health issues in her mid 20s. Suicide attempts, personality disorder. We toughed it out for years. She has BPD and was abusive at times, and I didn’t respond well. In 2011 she told me she was babysitting for a couple we knew 12 years earlier. The husband had the wife leave with the children, and made a sexual advance at my wife. She went into what the psychiatrists describe as tonic immobility. The pain of her childhood was back as she couldn’t fight, just as she’d been trained as a child. So a rape to add on to her pain and suffering. She then told me of the level of the atrocities committed on her body by her brother. The next 7 years were filled with one mental hospital stay after another, and she was ultimately diagnosed with PTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder, and a sleep disorder from hyper vigilance. We no longer went to church as the memories she’d blocked came back, and she could no longer be around people. There’s volumes more but now we are facing a long term stay in a facility.

              I lost any connection to God along the way, stopped praying, and lived from crisis to crisis. I’ve had much anger towards any idea of God, but Gos was always a failsafe in the back of my mind. The last 7-8 years are a blur. I’m very close to my children. I’m closest to my 18 year old, who went away to college last fall. Somehow we got on the topic of evolution, about which I was undereducated. So I looked into it with the idea I would convince her otherwise. Instead I’ve been sucked in and now nothing makes sense but evolution and random sadness. I should have known better as I have OCD and can dwell on things to the extent that baffles even therapists. She doesn’t know this has happened to me as a result of this, and she seems to be quite well adjusted to her atheism. But this has stripped me of everything I believed in. I no longer have the hope of seeing my wife’s glorified body, and of justice finally coming to those who hurt her, as I’m struggling with the very concept of God. I no longer see any meaning in life. The science looks so real, and for me, if Genesis isn’t literal, the whole construct comes down.

              So here I am. Without the hope of afterlife. Without an intimate relationship with my wife or God. And with a mortal, terrifying fear of death and nothingness that goes back to my childhood. Big Chris is a big tough guy on the outside. He’s a mess on the inside. I don’t know if there’s any going back now that evolution seems so real, and atheism sprouts from it. The more I look the more convincing it is, and the creationist arguments seem so logically weak. So here I am.
              I am so sorry for the pain and suffering you have endured in your life. My prayers are with you and your whole family. You and I are the exact same age, and I cannot even begin to relate to what sadness that your life has handed to you. I am saddened by the illness of your wife. The regret that I have is, I have no input regarding points or tips to comfort, regarding how your wife has suffered. From the outline of your message, it seems she is in the best care of treatment for her state of mind. It is so sad to see the afflictions that sinner men can inflict on God’s children.

              If I could have any input regarding your concerns, would be this: Please do not give up on God. I can tell by your post, that at one time you had a real good personal relationship with God. But I will add, it is perfectly understandable for us to question why God would allow you, your wife, and your families to suffer as you have. Even to question why God has not stepped in and answered your prayers that you and everyone else around you have offered up to God. The majority of your whole life, you and your whole circle of people have been praying.

              But if I could, I would like to open up another perspective. In my life in the ministry, I have come to the knowledge that when bad things happen, it does not mean that God is absent. It does not mean that God has turned a deaf ear. It doesn't mean that Jesus is not sympathetic to your hurt. It doesn't mean that if you really had faith like you should have had, then God would have done something.

              From the time that God put the curse on mankind (from the sin of Adam), we are forever dying. This is the power that God has given over to death. That death would forever be consuming our body, our mind, even our spirit (that is, if we allow Satan to have this power over this portion of our life). And since the day of the curse, it has been appointed by God, a time (even the very hour) that each of us will die. This is foreordained. The bible says that our very days are numbered. So in every aspect of life, the frailty of mankind is for ever present.

              In light of this, it does not mean that God does not care, or is just allowing bad things to happen. We can see the love and sympathy that Jesus has when Lazarus died. Jesus knew he would die. He knows everything about us. Jesus also knew he would do a miracle and raise him from the dead. He knew that before he made his journey back to where he laid dead. When he got there, Martha (the sister of Lazarus) fell at Jesus feet in terrible hurt in her heart. She said if he had been there, he would not have died. We can see that (John 11:35). In this passage, it reads that “Jesus wept”. He did not weep because of Lazarus. He was just about to raise him from the dead. But he could not stand to see Martha hurt. And he felt her hurt and cried. Jesus is the true meaning on Love.

              A book that I would love you to dwell in, maybe to help find some meaning to what is going on in your life would be the book of Job. Job was a man of sorrow. Job was a man that God knew was loyal to him. But during the suffering of Job, he did sin. And he was chastened by God. Job didn't think he should be made to suffer. God's message to Job was, it is not intended for us to know the mind of God. But this did not mean that God was not with Job during his suffering.

              After reading your message, I can hear your inner spirit calling out in faith. I can hear your inner spirit pleading, in your conversations with your daughter. The worst thing that you could do to your wife and to your daughter, is to let them see you give up hope and abandon your faith. You need to be the strength, when your family is weak. Do not allow your weakness to be a stumbling stone to your daughter, who looks to you for strength and guidance. You may be the very reason that your daughter never comes to know God. You may not feel strong enough for this role, but God will give you strength if you rely on him.

              Please let your family see you repent. Let them see you renew your faith. Let them see that you await the suffering in this life, that it has in store for you, until the day of your death. But let them know that you really want to see them on the other side. Where there is no more suffering and there is no more pain. Please come back to God and take one day at a time. God will sustain you.

              A scripture I will leave you with: Matthew 10:28
              "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

              God bless you my brother.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Iím a disaster

                Iíll reply to everyone at once. Thank you all for caring enough to take the time to respond to me.

                I had already read much of James Tour. While I find it interesting, it doesnít seem to ring true in the face of the other evidence. Iíve spent whole days on this topic, thanks OCD. It seems to be casting doubt for the sake of the faith, I donít know.

                I have been praying daily. Iím pretty far gone though, and am having difficulty. If Iím not trusting God is even there, Iím having trouble praying and believing. I will present my prayers today much the same as I laid it out here. Thank you Jayne.

                I appreciate the verses. Itís all difficult as Iím grappling with basics, such as the Bible declaring itself true doesnít prove its true. My daughterís ďacademicĒ approach to the Bible and Jesus is working on me. My mother continues to say ďyou just have to have faithĒ. I didnít get to faith with some emotional experience, I got there by what I saw as logical deduction. That same tendency is pulling me away, and it hurts. I wish I could see it as some enlightenment, but instead I feel doomed to hang in between, never knowing.

                The despair I feel is so deep. Itís like Iíve lost everything in which I believed. My marriage isnít close to what Iíd hoped. My children are headed their own way. Sobbing incessantly and not sleeping well. Feeling like my life is over and eternal nothingness awaits. And unable to see God or a reason for any of it. Prior to this month, I could at least enjoy the small things. Now the small things are of no consequence to me. Iím faking happiness for my 12 year old, who is very close to me. I donít want to do anything except sleep, which comes 30 minutes at a a time. I scour the internet looking for some magical sentence that will convince me Iím not headed where it feels like I am. Thatís a futile effort, I know.

                Thank you for ďlisteningĒ. Itís therapeutic to a small degree to write it out. The genuine caring people have shown means something.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Iím a disaster

                  That's what this thread is for, Chris. To "let it ALL out" and for others to listen.
                  sigpic
                  ".....it's your nickel"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Iím a disaster

                    Originally posted by Bigchris View Post
                    I’ll reply to everyone at once. Thank you all for caring enough to take the time to respond to me.

                    I had already read much of James Tour. While I find it interesting, it doesn’t seem to ring true in the face of the other evidence. I’ve spent whole days on this topic, thanks OCD. It seems to be casting doubt for the sake of the faith, I don’t know.

                    I have been praying daily. I’m pretty far gone though, and am having difficulty. If I’m not trusting God is even there, I’m having trouble praying and believing. I will present my prayers today much the same as I laid it out here. Thank you Jayne.

                    I appreciate the verses. It’s all difficult as I’m grappling with basics, such as the Bible declaring itself true doesn’t prove its true. My daughter’s “academic” approach to the Bible and Jesus is working on me. My mother continues to say “you just have to have faith”. I didn’t get to faith with some emotional experience, I got there by what I saw as logical deduction. That same tendency is pulling me away, and it hurts. I wish I could see it as some enlightenment, but instead I feel doomed to hang in between, never knowing.

                    The despair I feel is so deep. It’s like I’ve lost everything in which I believed. My marriage isn’t close to what I’d hoped. My children are headed their own way. Sobbing incessantly and not sleeping well. Feeling like my life is over and eternal nothingness awaits. And unable to see God or a reason for any of it. Prior to this month, I could at least enjoy the small things. Now the small things are of no consequence to me. I’m faking happiness for my 12 year old, who is very close to me. I don’t want to do anything except sleep, which comes 30 minutes at a a time. I scour the internet looking for some magical sentence that will convince me I’m not headed where it feels like I am. That’s a futile effort, I know.

                    Thank you for “listening”. It’s therapeutic to a small degree to write it out. The genuine caring people have shown means something.


                    Hi Chris,

                    If anyone here where able to help you with this situation(s), what, in your opinion would be the most important things you would like to talk about? Trying not to be presumptuous, what might be your top three issues ( or just one ) you would like to talk about from where your standing?

                    Blue
                    ďAĒ cannot be ďAĒ & not ďAĒ at the same time.

                    מקום כניעה סך הכל

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Iím a disaster

                      I forgot to add, dang edit feature is still down.... I think there are more people in here who can identify with your sitatuion than meets the eye. At your own speed brother.
                      ďAĒ cannot be ďAĒ & not ďAĒ at the same time.

                      מקום כניעה סך הכל

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Iím a disaster

                        Bluesky,
                        Your kindness is appreciated. If at any point you or someone else becomes tired or impatient of me I can go. I have the ability to wear people out because I can go on and on when most people would just give up and decide on something.

                        I had never thought about the declaring of Biblical truth. I grew up with a bible believing mother, so it was assumed.

                        I am rocked to my core now. Everything my daughter says sounds correct to my intellect. She is by no means angry or forceful. She is the sweetest person I know. The circular reasoning argument against the Bible is going to be very difficult to get past now. Essentially, that the Bible is correct because the Bible says so. The Bible is Godís word because the Bible says so. Christ is who the Bible claims because the Bible says so. And this would make it impossible to differentiate from claims of other religions, as each considers their text correct and inspired because their text came from their holy book (or set of ideas, etc.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Iím a disaster

                          Originally posted by Bigchris View Post
                          I’ll reply to everyone at once. Thank you all for caring enough to take the time to respond to me.

                          I had already read much of James Tour. While I find it interesting, it doesn’t seem to ring true in the face of the other evidence. I’ve spent whole days on this topic, thanks OCD. It seems to be casting doubt for the sake of the faith, I don’t know.

                          I have been praying daily. I’m pretty far gone though, and am having difficulty. If I’m not trusting God is even there, I’m having trouble praying and believing. I will present my prayers today much the same as I laid it out here. Thank you Jayne.

                          I appreciate the verses. It’s all difficult as I’m grappling with basics, such as the Bible declaring itself true doesn’t prove its true. My daughter’s “academic” approach to the Bible and Jesus is working on me. My mother continues to say “you just have to have faith”. I didn’t get to faith with some emotional experience, I got there by what I saw as logical deduction. That same tendency is pulling me away, and it hurts. I wish I could see it as some enlightenment, but instead I feel doomed to hang in between, never knowing.

                          The despair I feel is so deep. It’s like I’ve lost everything in which I believed. My marriage isn’t close to what I’d hoped. My children are headed their own way. Sobbing incessantly and not sleeping well. Feeling like my life is over and eternal nothingness awaits. And unable to see God or a reason for any of it. Prior to this month, I could at least enjoy the small things. Now the small things are of no consequence to me. I’m faking happiness for my 12 year old, who is very close to me. I don’t want to do anything except sleep, which comes 30 minutes at a a time. I scour the internet looking for some magical sentence that will convince me I’m not headed where it feels like I am. That’s a futile effort, I know.

                          Thank you for “listening”. It’s therapeutic to a small degree to write it out. The genuine caring people have shown means something.
                          I can think of no better time to do a self-evaluation check with your relationship with God, than in a time of a low spirit and despair. This is the point where so many come to, before coming to the realization that all we have left, is to trust in God. The road to brokenness ends at Jesus feet.

                          It is clear you are in the bargaining stage. But please consider, there is no bargaining with God. When God comes calling, he has a way of removing distractions which stand in the way of your relationship, which you continue to tell yourself, does not exist. I don't intend to be insensitive to the turmoil in your life, but as far as God is concerned, this is a distraction. Distractions can be anything which separate us from God. Distractions can be related to virtually anything, such as; social media, sports, career, financial concerns, relationships, health. And the list goes on and on. Although what is going on in your life is as real as real can be, to allow any of these to distract or to take your focus off of God is allowing sin to consume your life.

                          The bible says, "Without faith, it is impossible to please God." One thing is for certain, God is unlikely going to give up on you, until you concede to his will. Please give due diligence to make your election and calling sure. Please make your peace calling with God your 1st priority.

                          My main concern is with your soul. Once you get that in order, everything else will sort out on its own.

                          God will bless you, put your full trust in him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Iím a disaster

                            Originally posted by Bigchris View Post
                            Bluesky,
                            Your kindness is appreciated. If at any point you or someone else becomes tired or impatient of me I can go. I have the ability to wear people out because I can go on and on when most people would just give up and decide on something.

                            I had never thought about the declaring of Biblical truth. I grew up with a bible believing mother, so it was assumed.

                            I am rocked to my core now. Everything my daughter says sounds correct to my intellect. She is by no means angry or forceful. She is the sweetest person I know. The circular reasoning argument against the Bible is going to be very difficult to get past now. Essentially, that the Bible is correct because the Bible says so. The Bible is God’s word because the Bible says so. Christ is who the Bible claims because the Bible says so. And this would make it impossible to differentiate from claims of other religions, as each considers their text correct and inspired because their text came from their holy book (or set of ideas, etc.)
                            If I understand one of your concerns, one seems to be, how can I know the bible is true and Jesus is Lord.

                            Let me give you some things to consider:

                            1) The bible is made up of a collection of 66 books.
                            2) These 66 books were all written in a period of over 1500 years.
                            3) The people who wrote these books consist of approximately 40 authors.
                            4) The 40 authors did not know each other and lived on 3 different continents.
                            5) The original languages which the books were written in, consist of 3 different languages, Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic.
                            6) Most of the original writings were not discovered until thousands of years later, after they were written, and all agree with the 1500 transcripts that we do have.
                            7) All the writings of these 66 books, of 40 authors, over 3 continents, over 1500-year period, all point to the same focal point. They all point to Christ.
                            8) The supernatural events that are written within, all occurred in the lifetime of witnesses, in the presence of other live witness who gave testimony that the events that occurred are true.
                            9) After Jesus was resurrected, he was seen by as many as 1500 witnesses that were still alive when the letters to the churches by the apostles were written. And no manuscripts exist that dispute these supernatural occurrences.
                            10) There are about 10 manuscripts that exist today, which reveal to us that Julius Caesar lived and existed. And we have no problem at all believing these 10 manuscripts as evidence of truth.
                            11) Yet we have over 1500 manuscripts that exist; over 3 continents, over a 1500-year period, written in 3 different languages, of 40 different authors, who did not know each other. All these writings agree on the same point leading us to Christ, yet we do not believe this evidence as truth.

                            I'm sorry, but I plead with you to do some soul searching before it's too late.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Iím a disaster

                              Originally posted by Bigchris View Post
                              Bluesky,
                              Your kindness is appreciated. If at any point you or someone else becomes tired or impatient of me I can go. I have the ability to wear people out because I can go on and on when most people would just give up and decide on something.

                              I had never thought about the declaring of Biblical truth. I grew up with a bible believing mother, so it was assumed.

                              I am rocked to my core now. Everything my daughter says sounds correct to my intellect. She is by no means angry or forceful. She is the sweetest person I know. The circular reasoning argument against the Bible is going to be very difficult to get past now. Essentially, that the Bible is correct because the Bible says so. The Bible is God’s word because the Bible says so. Christ is who the Bible claims because the Bible says so. And this would make it impossible to differentiate from claims of other religions, as each considers their text correct and inspired because their text came from their holy book (or set of ideas, etc.)
                              Hi Chris,

                              Sounds like your daughter is a budding evolutionist? This is becoming a real issue with Christian families as the .edu system in the west is heavily weighted in this direction, not a theistic one. There is a big difference. Without significant teaching at home, (ie mentorship ) our children are being heavily drawn in the opposite direction. I have had to have several serious debates with my kids over issues they were taught in school, it’s like fighting the tide! ( have you ever tried to swim against the tide? It’s tough.

                              As a Christian, the circular reasoning issue is a very common position but is essentially a non-issue. We have tons of extra Biblical evidence that shows what scripture asserts, is in fact True Truth. Not to mention logic and common sense.

                              Are you familiar with the law of non-contraction? It’s quite possible to differentiate between paradigms ( worldvews ) when you dig right in.

                              It’s completely realistic to find the True Truth on many issues. ( ie who made mess in the kitchen? )

                              What would you say if I said: “Whatever the Truth is ( on human origins) is the Truth for us all?

                              Your thoughts are welcome.
                              ďAĒ cannot be ďAĒ & not ďAĒ at the same time.

                              מקום כניעה סך הכל

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