Waar staan ons met Israel?

[trudie]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Ek verwys nie na 'n teks nie maar die volle 3 hoofstukke en die hele boek van Romeine is nog beter.Ek dink dit is hoe ek dit verstaan As jy dit anders verstaan en dit maak jou gelukkig dan glo jy dit.Ek gaan nie ontsteld wees of slaaplose nagte daaroor hę nie.Ek glo soos ek glo en ek is nie van plan om anders te glo nie.

[Johnny]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Ek verwys nie na 'n teks nie maar die volle 3 hoofstukke en die hele boek van Romeine is nog beter.Ek dink dit is hoe ek dit verstaan As jy dit anders verstaan en dit maak jou gelukkig dan glo jy dit.Ek gaan nie ontsteld wees of slaaplose nagte daaroor hę nie.Ek glo soos ek glo en ek is nie van plan om anders te glo nie.

Amen Trudie!

Numeri 23:19 "God is geen man dat Hy sou lieg nie; of ‘n mensekind dat dit Hom sou berou nie. Sou Hy iets sę en dit nie doen nie, of spreek en dit nie waar maak nie?"

[Philip dT]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Philip, gelukkig ken ek jou siening in sake die Dawid Ster en die Jode. Jy sien God se volk en hulle gebruike as die "okkult" en daarvoor is daar legio bewyse van jou eie plasings op die forum. Ons weet dat die satan 'n na-aper is.

God se volk en hulle gebruike as "okkult" sę jy? Ek dink nie meeste mense hier het nie 'n probleem met die feit dat jy 'n ander standpunt het nie, ek ook nie. Die probleem is met die manier hoe jy verskil. As jy verskil, verskil dan met wat iemand sę, of haal die persoon aan, maar as jy 'n stelling maak oor iemand se siening wat iets aan hom/haar toedig wat daardie persoon nie gesę het nie (bv. dat ek God se volk en hulle gebruike sou sien as okkult), dan tas dit jou geloofwaardigheid as gespreksgenoot aan, en maak dit dat mense jou aanvallend en persoonlik beledigend ondervind. En dit maak ook dat jy nie oortuigend oorkom nie, maar eerder dat jy 'n verskuilde agenda het.

As jy oortuigend wil oorkom, maak erns met ander mense se standpunte, moenie iets aan hulle toedig wat hulle nie gesę het nie, en regeer op wat hulle sę, nie op wat jy hulle wil maak sę nie. Wanneer jy 'n karikatuur maak van ander se standpunte wys dat dat jy of nie verstaan nie, nie wil verstaan nie, of nie wil toegee dat jy verkeerd is nie. Maar dit skep beslis nie die indruk dat jy weet waarvan jy praat of selfs oortuig is van jou eie standpunt nie. Maak eerder erns met die probleem en ek gaan enige tyd met jou in gesprek: Wat is die Nuwe Testamentiese basis waarop jy beweer daar bestaan steeds 'n aparte volk van God naas Christene?

[Johnny]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

God se volk en hulle gebruike as "okkult" sę jy? Ek dink nie meeste mense hier het nie 'n probleem met die feit dat jy 'n ander standpunt het nie, ek ook nie. Die probleem is met die manier hoe jy verskil. As jy verskil, verskil dan met wat iemand sę, of haal die persoon aan, maar as jy 'n stelling maak oor iemand se siening wat iets aan hom/haar toedig wat daardie persoon nie gesę het nie (bv. dat ek God se volk en hulle gebruike sou sien as okkult), dan tas dit jou geloofwaardigheid as gespreksgenoot aan, en maak dit dat mense jou aanvallend en persoonlik beledigend ondervind. En dit maak ook dat jy nie oortuigend oorkom nie, maar eerder dat jy 'n verskuilde agenda het.

As jy oortuigend wil oorkom, maak erns met ander mense se standpunte, moenie iets aan hulle toedig wat hulle nie gesę het nie, en regeer op wat hulle sę, nie op wat jy hulle wil maak sę nie. Wanneer jy 'n karikatuur maak van ander se standpunte wys dat dat jy of nie verstaan nie, nie wil verstaan nie, of nie wil toegee dat jy verkeerd is nie. Maar dit skep beslis nie die indruk dat jy weet waarvan jy praat of selfs oortuig is van jou eie standpunt nie. Maak eerder erns met die probleem en ek gaan enige tyd met jou in gesprek: Wat is die Nuwe Testamentiese basis waarop jy beweer daar bestaan steeds 'n aparte volk van God naas Christene?

Philip as jy enigsins (en jy het) al die plasings en bewyse wat ek oor die jare geplaas het ter harte geneem het, dan sou jy ook al teen die tyd die lig aan die einde van die tonnel kon sien.

[Kalahari]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Johnny

Ek weet jy het 'n geweldige passie vir Israel. Vir my neig dit na verering, maar dit is net my persepsie as ek so na jou plasings kyk.

Ek sal dit egter waardeer indien jy die laaste vraag van Phillip hier sal beantwoord. "Wat is die Nuwe Testamentiese basis waarop jy beweer daar bestaan steeds 'n aparte volk van God naas Christene?"

Ek dink dit is relevant tot die gesprek hier.

Johnny, mag ek maar stout wees? Ek wil net graag weet of jy darem in 2012 al die Bybel deurgelees het. Ek onthou in vorige drade dat jy erken het dat jy nog nie die Bybel deurgelees het nie.

Groete
Kalahari

[Johnny]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Johnny

Ek weet jy het 'n geweldige passie vir Israel. Vir my neig dit na verering, maar dit is net my persepsie as ek so na jou plasings kyk.

Ek sal dit egter waardeer indien jy die laaste vraag van Phillip hier sal beantwoord. "Wat is die Nuwe Testamentiese basis waarop jy beweer daar bestaan steeds 'n aparte volk van God naas Christene?"

Ek dink dit is relevant tot die gesprek hier.

Johnny, mag ek maar stout wees? Ek wil net graag weet of jy darem in 2012 al die Bybel deurgelees het. Ek onthou in vorige drade dat jy erken het dat jy nog nie die Bybel deurgelees het nie.

Groete
Kalahari

Nee Kalahari....ek het nie die Bybel deurgelees nie. Soos Pastoor Dries altyd se: "Jy kan 10 keer deur die Bybel lees, maar wat saak maak is hoeveel keer is die Bybel al deur jou"?

Jou Israel vraag sal ek nog beantwoord en ek dink daar is al baie plasings hieroor in die verlede gemaak. Net so terloops al die profetiese verwysings na Isreal in die laaste dae uit die Ou Testament soos Jeremia, Amos, Jesaja ens verwys direk na die Nuwe Testamentiese tyd waarin ons nou leef. Hoeveel meer bewyse wil jy he as dit?

[RR van Wyk]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Johnny, ek stem saam met Kalahari. Jy plaas teveel klem op Israel en die Jode wat dit baie meer na verering laat lyk en of jy hulle verwerping van Jesus goedkeur. Dit bemoeilik dinge heelwat.

Ek glo Israel en eindgebeure gaan hand aan hand. God het nie van hulle vergeet nie, daar is 'n plan met hulle. Maar ek glo nie dit is 100% die plan wat jy dalk in gedagte het nie.

En terloops net vir interresantheid. Ek vind dit nogal baie snaaks die prentjie van man wat meer soos Chinees lyk wat dink hy is Jood net van wat iemand aan hom verduidelik het wat Jood is... 'n voorbeeld hoe vermeng en kompleks dit is..

[Philip dT]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Philip as jy enigsins (en jy het) al die plasings en bewyse wat ek oor die jare geplaas het ter harte geneem het, dan sou jy ook al teen die tyd die lig aan die einde van die tonnel kon sien.

Wat is die lig wat ek moet sien, Johnny? Dat die ganse Christendom mislei word? Ek word elke dag meer daarvan bewus hoe meer plasings jy maak. En daarmee sę ek nie jy wat Johnny is mislei mense nie, maar dat dit wat ons in die węreld sien gebeur en wat ons in die media sien (die berigte ens.), bevestig dat Christene mislei word.

[Ben Cronje]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Net so terloops al die profetiese verwysings na Isreal in die laaste dae uit die Ou Testament soos Jeremia, Amos, Jesaja ens verwys direk na die Nuwe Testamentiese tyd waarin ons nou leef. Hoeveel meer bewyse wil jy he as dit?

Die nuwe Testament het ook profesie in. Wat sę Pastoor Dries sę die Nuwe Testament Profesiee oor die OU Testamentiese Israel?

[Die Filadelfieer]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Die nuwe Testament het ook profesie in. Wat sę Pastoor Dries sę die Nuwe Testament Profesiee oor die OU Testamentiese Israel?

Agenee Ben ! As jy by hierdie tyd nog nie die lig gesien het in verband met Israel nie moet jy vir jou flits nuwe bętteries gaan koop !

[chisel]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Ek stem saam met die ander. Ek dink nie Sionisme is 'n vereiste vir Christenskap nie. Ook dink ek nie Christenskap impliseer Sionisme nie.

[Johnny]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Die nuwe Testament het ook profesie in.

Ja.....soos byvoorbeeld die 7 jaar verdrukking wat in Jesus se tyd al plaasgevind het....

[Johnny]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Agenee Ben ! As jy by hierdie tyd nog nie die lig gesien het in verband met Israel nie moet jy vir jou flits nuwe bętteries gaan koop !

Fila.....it is your lucky day. Daar is nou beter batterye vir jou as Duracell. Of dit vir jou gaan werk twyfel ek egter. Jy het 'n wonderwerk nodig. Gelukkig verrrig Jesus vandag nog wonderwerke. Wie weet, dalk sien jou tog die Lig eendag.....

[Die Filadelfieer]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Fila.....it is your lucky day. Daar is nou beter batterye vir jou as Duracell. Of dit vir jou gaan werk twyfel ek egter. Jy het 'n wonderwerk nodig. Gelukkig verrrig Jesus vandag nog wonderwerke. Wie weet, dalk sien jou tog die Lig eendag.....

Interesant Johnny. Dit lyk werklikwaar of jy nie meer antwoorde het vir al die vrae wat aan jou gevra is nie. Beweer jy nou met hierdie pos van jou dat slegs die wat saam met jou stem Christene is ?

Kan jy relevante teksverwysings hiervoor verskaf, of word jy weereens deur "die pastoor" voorgesę in hierdie verband ?

[Johnny]

Re: Waar staan ons met Israel?

Elke christen behoort op sy kniee te gaan en die Here te dank vir die Jode. As hulle nie geval het nie, het saligheid nie na ons as heidene toe gekom nie. Dit is wat die Bybel se!

Romeine 11:11 Ek vra dan: Het hulle miskien gestruikel om te val? Nee, stellig nie! Maar deur hulle val het die saligheid tot die heidene gekom om hulle jaloers te maak.
Romeine 11:12 En as hulle val die rykdom van die węreld is en hulle tekort die rykdom van die heidene, hoeveel te meer sal hulle volheid dit nie wees nie!

12 Reasons Why Every Christian Should Stand With Israel



1. The Bible Is Filled With Israel
All Bible believing people should stand with Israel. The Bible introduces The God of Israel and 2/3rds of the scriptures are dedicated to the people of Israel, their history and their destiny.

2. Christians Have A Common Destiny With Israel
Our ultimate destiny is the manifest Kingdom of God in which Jesus rules from the throne of David in Jerusalem. If we truly believe the Bible we must inevitably believe in the future good of Israel. Isaiah 2:2-5. Micah 4: 1-4 Isaiah 2:2-3 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. 3 Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; he will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (NKJ) Micah 4:1-2 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.(KJV)

3. Because Israel Is A Unique And Special Nation To God
Exodus 19:5 'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a (peculiar) special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. (NKJ) Deuteronomy 14:2 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a (peculiar) special treasure above all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. (NKJ) Psalm 135:4 For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.(KJV)

4. Christians Also Are A Peculiar Treasure To God
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (KJV) 1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (KJV) Both Israel and the church are therefore said to be “a peculiar treasure to God.” This fact surely forges a link between the two!

5. Because God Says He Will Bless Those Who Bless Them.
Genesis 12:3: "I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee, and in thee shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.". Isaiah 60:12: 'For the nation that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined. Throughout human history many mighty world kingdoms have fallen and disintegrated e.g Egypt, Persia, Rome, Greece, Spain, Germany, Britain. In every instance there have been factors of anti Semitism inbred in the system and this has brought about their downfall in accordance with the Bible principle.

6. Because We Owe Them A Debt For What We Have Received Through Them
Through Israel the promises and covenants were given. Through them came the law, the prophets and the Messiah Jesus, who has opened up access to God for all. Through the Jewish apostles the gospel first went to the nations. To the Israelites 'pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God and the promises, of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all.' (Romans 9:4-5). "For if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also be of service them in material to them in their material blessings" (Romans 15:27)

7. Because God's Gifts and Call On Them Have Never Been Revoked
Romans 11:28: 'As regards the gospel they are enemies of God for our sake; but as regards the election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and call of God are irrevocable.' Though most Jews have not yet responded to the gospel, this has not invalidated God's plan for them, which He will ultimately fulfill. The covenant with Abraham has not been replaced by the New Covenant, nor been set aside because of their failure to enter the New Covenant. Though the once for all sacrifice of Jesus has fulfilled and replaced the Temple sacrifices, the eternal covenant God made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants has NOT been set aside. “A hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the gentiles has come in, and so all Israel will be saved.”(Rom 11:26)

8. Because God Has Promised To Bring Them Back To Their Land.
God has promised to turn, again to the Jewish people, to bring them back to their land and to cleanse them from unrighteousness. “„I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; l will plant them upon their land and they shall never again be plucked up out of the land which I have given them ' says the Lord your God.‟” (Amos 9:14-15)” “I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all sides and bring them to their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all.” (Ezekiel 37:21-22) The regathering of Israel is prophesied in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, Amos, Hosea, Jeremiah, by Jesus in Luke 21:24, and by Paul in Romans 11. It is a key condition to the full flowering of the Messianic age. God promised Abraham and his descendants the land of Israel as an everlasting possession. He confirmed that promise with Isaac as recorded in Genesis 26:3-4 and again with Jacob in Genesis 35:12.

9. Because The Times Of The Gentiles Are Fulfilled
'Jerusalem will be trodden down underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.' (Luke 21:24) Jesus foresaw that the Roman Gentile armies would overthrow every vestige of Jewish rule in Jerusalem; but He also saw that that Gentile domination of Jerusalem would come to an end. In 70 AD Jerusalem fell to the Roman army. In 1967, in the course of defending themselves against an attack from their Arab neighbours, the Israelis regained control of the entire City of Jerusalem for the first time since 70 A D. thus fulfilling this prophecy of Jesus. All believers in the words of Jesus should know that the ending of Gentile control of the city is God's plan. “When you see these things happen look up your redemption draws nigh.” (Luke 21:28)

10. Because We. Are To "Comfort God’s People"
In Isaiah, God says 'Comfort, comfort my people says your God. Speak tenderly to Jerusalem and cry to her that her warfare is ended, that her iniquity is pardoned that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all her sins'. (Isaiah 40:1-2) This is a call to Christians to comfort the Jewish people. Isaiah also envisions that the leaders of the nations would help the Jewish people and nurture them in their regathering. 'Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I will lift up my hand to the nations, and raise my signal to the peoples; and they shall bring your sons in their bosom, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders. Kings shall be your foster fathers and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you and lick the dust off your feet. Then you will know that I am the Lord; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame." (Isaiah 49:22-23) God says that the Gentiles will nurture the Jewish people and assist them in their reentry to their land. It is our divine mandate to help them for their own sakes and for the fulfillment of their unique call. Gentile believers must do more than observe what God is doing with the Jewish people...God is asking us to get involved in helping them!

11. Because We Need To Make Reparation For Anti-Semitic Teachings And Actions
Throughout the history of the Church, since the second century, Christian leaders have been guilty of the most vicious anti-Semitic remarks. These remarks have provided the basis for despots throughout the centuries to this day to ridicule, discriminate, and even kill the Jewish people. Often those who claimed to be followers of the Messiah (Rescuer of Israel, and the One who has taught us how to love and forgive) have perpetrated these actions. Can we blame the Jews for so often resisting a Messiah whose followers were anti-Semitic? In justice as well as in charity we need to make reparation for the tragic record of Christianity (both in its Catholic & in its Protestant forms) in its dealings with the Jewish people. We who should have been their nurturers; have so often been their enemies and tormentors. The spirit of anti-Semitism did not begin or end with Adolf Hitler but can find a landing ground on Christians who have not been awakened to their responsibility towards Israel The heretical teaching that the Church has replaced Israel has been taught since the second century. This teaching is faithful neither to the Old Testament nor New Testament Scriptures. Though most nations and churches denounce anti-Semitism today, anti-Zionism is still widely acceptable. It is the new anti-Semitism. Opposition to Israel's right to fulfill their God given destiny in the land of promise is the most dangerous form of anti-Semitism today.

12. Because God Is Working With Them To Work Out His Plan For World Peace
Romans 11:15: 'For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?' The Messiah is coming back to Israel to be reconciled with His own people. He will reign from there with His overcoming saints 'from every tribe and tongue and people and nation' over all the nations. (Rev. 7:9; 11:15) Isaiah 2:3 'For out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.' World peace is coming. The fullness of the Messianic age is coming. But first there will be the destruction of all systems and kingdoms that ignore God’s Messianic plan.

If you want world peace, pray and help the Jewish people.
If you want to see the Church restored, pray for and help the Jewish people:
If you want to see the Messiah return, pray for the restoration of Israel.
If you want to see your nation and all the nations including the Arab nations) blessed, pray and
work for it to stand with Israel and the Jewish people, and resist anti-Semitism.
If you want your own life to be blessed, help and bless the Jewish people
If you want your life to prosper, pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Seven Practical Things Believers Can Do To Help Israel

1. Study and understand what the Bible has to say about God's plan for Israel and the Jewish people.
2. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem and for God's purposes for the Jewish people. "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper that love you" (Psalm 122.6).
3. Teach your church to stand with Israel. Organize a pro Israel event or seminar in your church or city each year to encourage biblical solidarity with God's plan for the Jewish people and Israel. This will bring a blessing on your church and city.
4. Support (financially and otherwise) Christian agencies that help the Jewish people return to Israel and settle in their land. E.g. “The International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem” – Christian Friends Of Israel, Bridges For Peace Jerusalem etc
5. Share the Messiah with the Jewish people in the context of their own faith, destiny, and scriptures.
6. Refuse to support anti-Semitic sentiments in public and social life. Where appropriate speak out as the Spirit leads in wise and loving ways e.g. notify politicians and/or media of your views.
7. Visit Israel if possible. This is a practical way to learn about the people and support them and their economy. "Walk about Zion and go all around her. Count her towers mark well her bulwarks. Consider her palaces that you may tell it to the generations following." (Psalm 48:13) In this time of international travel should we not all consider making Jerusalem our destination of choice?

Spreuke 23:9 "Spreek nie voor die ore van ‘n dwaas nie, want hy sal die verstandigheid van jou woorde verag."