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  • Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

    I had posted this topic in the "Christians Answer" sub forum of the Special Forums category. However, I was told that it was not appropriate for that forum and was directed to the Areopagus section.

    1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

    2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

    3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when the Messiah's spirit left His body.

    4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

    5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

    6. I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?

  • #2
    Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
    I had posted this topic in the "Christians Answer" sub forum of the Special Forums category. However, I was told that it was not appropriate for that forum and was directed to the Areopagus section.

    1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

    2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

    3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when the Messiah's spirit left His body.

    4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

    5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

    6. I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?
    Biblical days are sunset to sunset, even if it's for one minute, it's another day or the previous day.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

      keck553,
      re: "Biblical days are sunset to sunset, even if it's for one minute, it's another day or the previous day."


      I'm afraid I don't see your point as it applies to my query. I wonder if you might explain why you think that it does apply?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

        Originally posted by rstrats View Post
        I had posted this topic in the "Christians Answer" sub forum of the Special Forums category. However, I was told that it was not appropriate for that forum and was directed to the Areopagus section.

        1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

        2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

        3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when the Messiah's spirit left His body.

        4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

        5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

        6. I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?
        A better account of the 3 days/nights is to avoid the common tradition that Jesus was crucified on Friday; and realize Jesus was crucified on Thursday.

        In that crucifixion week; the gospels attest there was both a regular sabbath day (as all weeks have) but also a special, additional high-sabbath day.
        Friday being this special high-sabbath day allows for the scriptures to harmonize with both the 3 days in the tomb prophecy; and also them taking Jesus down from the cross before the sabbath (friday special high-sabbath, not the usually weekly saturday sabbath).

        Something to think about.

        To me, this is much more tendable; than the '3days and 3nights' (is really only any part of 3 days) figure of speech answer.

        Day 1 Thursday Day before nightfall Jesus died.
        Day 1 Thursday Day after 3pm Jesus is removed and buried. (that they needed to get him down and buried before this sabbath began)
        (Night 1 )Thursday Nightfall and start of Special High Sabbath day)
        Day 2 Friday daytime during the special High sabbath day.
        Night 2 Friday nightfall and start of the regular weekly sabbath.
        Day 3 Saturday daytime during the regular weekly sabbath.
        Day 3 Saturday nightfall and start of the 1st day of the next week. (sometime in this period Jesus arose)
        Day 4 Sunday morning after sunrise; the first day of the week the disciples and Marys go to the tomb; but Jesus has already arisen.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

          David Taylor,
          re: "A better account of the 3 days/nights is to avoid the common tradition that Jesus was crucified on Friday; and realize Jesus was crucified on Thursday."

          That would be an issue for a different topic. Perhaps you could start one.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

            Originally posted by rstrats View Post
            1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"
            ... some ... say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.
            ...
            I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?
            You appear to be soliciting a response from those which hold a particular belief regarding the day of Jesus' crucifixion and how they reconcile their belief to Matthew 12:40 which seems to suggest a 72 hour sequence. I think I might qualify as someone who can comment regarding how I support that belief.

            To see if Messiah was employing a common figure of speech and/or colloquial language as opposed to meaning a literal 72 hour sequence, an effort could be made to gather all of Jesus' recorded sayings regarding the period of time that would elapse before being resurrected.

            If after one has gathered all the sayings and find only the one reference you have offered, then it would seem hard to substantiate that Jesus referred to the duration of time colloquially. But if more than one saying is found and that all sayings refer to the same events and duration of time but appear to be in contradiction to one another when taken literally, then either of two things would seem to be true***. Either the "three days and three nights" reference (and each distinct reference as well) has something to do with a unique event and measurement of the duration including but not exclusive to how long it was before Jesus was resurrected (for example "heart of the earth" would refer to something other than just in a sealed tomb); or all the sayings would refer to the same context and duration of the events which later transpired in the narratives and therefore the duration of the events would have been found to be spoken of in a colloquial fashion in SEVERAL instances by Jesus Himself. Weight would then be given to the narratives and what they indicate in clarifying the whole of Jesus' sayings which were before. Thus, we have Jesus' sayings about how the matter would unfold, and then we have the recorded matter to which Jesus spoke, presented as fulfilling all which was said previously. No further substantiation would be needed to form a belief on the matter, at least in my case.

            *** This "support of belief" as you term it does make assumptions, the most important of them being that Jesus is a real person and not a literary character that lies or is delusional and that the recorded sayings of Jesus are accurately presented in the Gospels.

            rstrats, do you have a belief of how long Jesus was in the tomb before His resurrection? Do you have an opinion on what the Gospels suggest according to the narratives?

            Blessings,
            Watchinginawe

            I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

              watchinginawe,
              re: "You appear to be soliciting a response from those which hold a particular belief regarding the day of Jesus' crucifixion and how they reconcile their belief to Matthew 12:40..."

              That is correct if you change your sentence to: "You appear to be soliciting a response from those who hold the belief that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial Jewish language in Matthew 12:40". Do you have any examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur?


              re: "rstrats, do you have a belief of how long Jesus was in the tomb before His resurrection? Do you have an opinion on what the Gospels suggest according to the narratives?"

              Those are issues for a different topic. Perhaps you could start one?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                watchinginawe,
                re: "You appear to be soliciting a response from those which hold a particular belief regarding the day of Jesus' crucifixion and how they reconcile their belief to Matthew 12:40..."

                That is correct if you change your sentence to: "You appear to be soliciting a response from those who hold the belief that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial Jewish language in Matthew 12:40". Do you have any examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur?
                I am one who believes that Jesus was employing common figure of speech/colloquial Jewish language in Matthew 12:40, so I qualify. The examples I have to show are directly from Jesus. Jesus is recorded in many instances talking about what was to happen to Him and the timing of His resurrection. If Matthew 12:40 stood alone, then it would have to be handled uniquely. But Jesus offered other "reckonings" regarding the timing of His resurrection which are not logically consistent with one another. This fact supports Jesus employing common figures of speech and/or colloquial Jewish language in His communications. The Gospels offer the actual events recorded in narrative style, and they clarify what Jesus was speaking of in His sayings. The sayings before the fact do not alter the narrative accounts of the events, rather the narrative accounting is meant to show that Jesus' statements regarding what was to happen to Him did in fact take place. The narratives are also precise and consistent enough to derive an opinion on what day of the week Jesus was crucified on.

                Originally posted by rstrats
                re: "rstrats, do you have a belief of how long Jesus was in the tomb before His resurrection? Do you have an opinion on what the Gospels suggest according to the narratives?"

                Those are issues for a different topic. Perhaps you could start one?
                If you mean that you would participate in the thread and offer your opinions and/or beliefs, I would be glad to.
                Watchinginawe

                I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                  watchinginawe,
                  re: "I am one who believes that Jesus was employing common figure of speech/colloquial Jewish language in Matthew 12:40..."

                  The Matthew 12:40 account is only one example, and then only if the Messiah's death/burial took place on the 6th day of the week. In order for you to say that it was "common" you'd have to know of other instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. Do you?


                  re: "If you mean that you would participate in the thread and offer your opinions and/or beliefs, I would be glad to. "

                  Go for it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                    Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                    watchinginawe,
                    re: "I am one who believes that Jesus was employing common figure of speech/colloquial Jewish language in Matthew 12:40..."

                    The Matthew 12:40 account is only one example, and then only if the Messiah's death/burial took place on the 6th day of the week. In order for you to say that it was "common" you'd have to know of other instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. Do you?
                    Jesus said or was reported to say (small collection, Gospel of Matthew only):

                    Matthew 12:39-40 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                    Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

                    Matthew 16:22-23 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

                    Matthew 20:17-19 And Jesus going up to Jerusalem took the twelve disciples apart in the way, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

                    Matthew 26:59-61 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

                    Matthew 27:39-40 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

                    Matthew 27:62-64 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

                    From my perspective, I believe all references are true and that the narrative accounts given at the end of the Gospel clarify the sayings:

                    Matthew 27:59-62 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

                    Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, ...
                    ...
                    Matthew 28:1-6 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

                    And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. [/B]


                    Let's work this backwards. The empty tomb discovered on "the first day of the week". The day prior was the Sabbath, i.e. the "end of the sabbath". Jesus crucified, died, and laid in the tomb on the day prior, the Day Of Preparation.

                    Given my belief that there are no errors in any of the above, then all sayings must resolve to the actual events which declare Jesus Messiah who was resurrected the third day.

                    Now, if all is true, and Jesus was not in the tomb 72 hours, and if Jesus DID rise again "the third day", then it is obvious that all references are to mean WHATEVER is recorded in the narrative given above: Day of Preparation, Sabbath, First Day of the Week.

                    Originally posted by rstrats
                    2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

                    3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the moment when the Messiah's spirit left His body.

                    4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

                    5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.
                    So I ask, what day does the Gospel of Matthew narrative events indicate what day of the week the crucifixion occurred? And what day for the resurrection? Thus, as you stated, I do not believe there was a 3rd night in the tomb, thus why I believe the Gospels themselves show that Jesus used colloquial speech regarding the "sign of Jonah" in Matthew 12.

                    We also have tradition to consider, which appears to match the recorded narrative events. This makes a strong case for me.

                    I should say that my faith isn't dependent on how I believe the Gospels reckon the sequence of events. I could accept any kind of sequence that results in the empty tomb and the resurrected Jesus being witnessed by the Apostles. By the same token, my faith is not shaken by the missing night and the saying of Matthew 12.

                    Please engage with the above and explain to me the faultiness of the "support for my belief" you requested.

                    Originally posted by rstrats
                    re: "If you mean that you would participate in the thread and offer your opinions and/or beliefs, I would be glad to. "

                    Go for it.
                    I'll create something this weekend.

                    Blessings,
                    Watchinginawe

                    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                      watchinginawe,
                      re: "So I ask, what day does the Gospel of Matthew narrative events indicate what day of the week the crucifixion occurred? And what day for the resurrection?"

                      That can be discussed in the new topic you are going to start.


                      re: "..., I do not believe there was a 3rd night in the tomb, thus why I believe the Gospels themselves show that Jesus used colloquial speech..."

                      But my question is about the commonality of such speech with regard to different events, i.e., the forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                        Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                        watchinginawe,
                        ...
                        But my question is about the commonality of such speech with regard to different events, i.e., the forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.
                        The first thing that must be observed in the matter is the number of times that Jesus speaks of the sequence of events. One refers to "the sign of Jonas", which must be somewhat common or Jesus would not have mentioned it. I don't know if Jesus' audience said to themselves "oh, Jesus means exactly 72 hours, just like Jonah", or whether they thought something like "oh, Jesus means he is going to be swallowed by the earth and spit back out three days later", or just what. "The sign of Jonas" surely was common and almost certainly didn't carry with it a technical precise understanding, especially since a whale or great fish would not be involved where Jesus was concerned.

                        The other references by Jesus are much more precise and mention the actual events which are to occur in sequence and the reckoning of His resurrection "on the third day". Then we have the recorded events as well.

                        I do find it helpful to try and find contemporary events and literature and whatever we have in study, but where one can't find how exactly Jesus' audience understood "the sign of Jonas" I lean on the narrative events to make sense of it. Incidentally, there is no "sign" that Jesus had to fulfill in my opinion. We see Jesus' attitude towards those who desired to have assurance because of a sign. For me, I'm not going to conform my faith to a "sign".

                        Should we do Mark, Luke, and John?
                        Watchinginawe

                        I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                          watchinginawe,
                          re: "One refers to 'the sign of Jonas', which must be somewhat common or Jesus would not have mentioned it."

                          The "Jonas" account is not applicable as an example of an event since there is nothing in the account that prohibits at least a portion of each one of 3 daytimes and at least a portion of each one of 3 night times.



                          re: "Should we do Mark, Luke, and John?"

                          Only if you can show where they provide examples of instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                            Deade,
                            Please review the rules for this special forum above; in the sticky post thread.

                            In this special subforum; replies may only be addressed to the OP (original poster).

                            No cross-talk amongst posts (you to WatchingInAwe) are allowed.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Common figure of speech/colloquial language?

                              Originally posted by rstrats View Post
                              keck553,
                              re: "Biblical days are sunset to sunset, even if it's for one minute, it's another day or the previous day."


                              I'm afraid I don't see your point as it applies to my query. I wonder if you might explain why you think that it does apply?
                              OK, I'm thoroughly confused. Nevermind.
                              Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

                              Comment

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