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Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

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  • Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

    Romans 9:3-4 states:
    3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

    This is the correct understanding of Romans 9:3-4: Paul is saying that he wishes that he could sacrifice himself, his right to Christ's kingdom, for the sake of his brethren the Israelites:

    The Israelites were adopted by God of Israel to be his chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6).
    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
    The Israelites witnessed God's glory (Exodus 24:17).
    Exodus 24:17
    And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

    The covenants of God of Israel belong to the Israelites (Deuteronomy 29:1) and (Hebrews 8:10):
    Deuteronomy 29:1
    These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
    Hebrews 8:10
    [10]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



    The laws of God of Israel were given to the Israelites because they are his people (Leviticus 26:46):
    Leviticus 26:46
    [46]These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

    The service of God of Israel through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites (Exodus 25:2&9) (Deuternomy 4:1):
    Exodus 25:2&9
    Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
    The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites (Isaiah 45:17), (Romans 10:1), (Jeremiah 23:6), (Romans 9:27), (Romans 11:26), (Acts 5:31) , (Acts 13:24) , (Revelation 21:12).

    The promises are as follows:

    Israel will be saved (all people? No, Just Israel):
    Isaiah 45:17
    But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Romans 10:1
    Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    Jeremiah 23:6


    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Romans 9:27
    Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Romans 11:26-27
    [26]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Repentance and Forgiveness of Sins will be given to Israel (not Christians or any other nation)
    Acts 5:30-31
    The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    Acts 13:23-24
    Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
    Oh check that script again. Did God raise Jesus unto all nations or Christians. No, God of Israel raised Jesus unto Israel. Oh it makes so much sense now.

    Who is getting the Kingdom? Christians all nations? Let's see:
    Revelation 21:11-12
    Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    [12]And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    Is the Bible for Chrisitianity or Israelites? Bible says the kingdom is for the twelve tribes of Israel.

  • #2
    Re: Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

    "Forty Reasons for Not Reinterpreting the OT by the NT: The Last Twenty" - by Paul Martin Henebury

    33. It ignores the life-setting of the disciples’ question in Acts 1:6 in the context of their already having had forty days teaching about the very thing they asked about (“the kingdom” – see Acts 1:3). This reflects badly on the clarity of the Risen Lord’s teaching about the kingdom. But the tenacity with which these disciples still clung to literal fulfillments would also prove the validity of #’s 23, 26, 27, 28 & 32 above.

    34. This resistance to the clear expectation of the disciples also ignores the question of the disciples, which was about the timing of the restoration of the kingdom to Israel, not its nature.

    https://sharperiron.org/article/fort...nt-last-twenty



    Acts 1:6 [blb] -

    "So indeed those having come together were asking Him, saying, "Lord, at this time are you restoring the kingdom to Israel?"



    Acts 3:21 [blb] - [Peter, in the chpt where he's pointing out to them how they'd overlooked or bypassed the "Suffering Servant" aspects [vv.13,26 "His Servant Jesus"] of His [first] Advent, thus themselves having hand in fulfilling that very thing]

    "21 whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."


    During the future tribulation period, it will be Israel [Israel's role] who will be doing the specific "INVITING TO" the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [which is on the earth, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (note: not our Rapture "IN THE AIR" which pertains solely to "the Church which is His body" Eph1:20-23 [note when])]

    Believers ["the Church which is His body" presently] sometimes have a habit of "reading themselves into" passages which pertain to "Israel" (Israel's future things), thus blurring things together which are distinct.



    Welcome to BF. Hope to see you around the boards (though I don't post as often as I used to)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

      Originally posted by amikamisrael View Post
      Romans 9:3-4[FONT="] states:[/FONT]
      [FONT="]3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:[/FONT]
      [FONT="]4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;[/FONT]

      [FONT="]This is the correct understanding of [/FONT]Romans 9:3-4[FONT="]: Paul is saying that he wishes that he could sacrifice himself, his right to Christ's kingdom, for the sake of his brethren the [/FONT]Israelites:

      The Israelites were adopted by God of Israel to be his chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6).
      Deuteronomy 7:6
      For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
      The Israelites witnessed God's glory (Exodus 24:17).
      Exodus 24:17
      And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

      The covenants of God of Israel belong to the Israelites (Deuteronomy 29:1) and (Hebrews 8:10):
      Deuteronomy 29:1
      These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
      Hebrews 8:10
      [10]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



      The laws of God of Israel were given to the Israelites because they are his people (Leviticus 26:46):
      Leviticus 26:46
      [46]These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

      The service of God of Israel through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites (Exodus 25:2&9) (Deuternomy 4:1):
      Exodus 25:2&9
      Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
      The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites (Isaiah 45:17), (Romans 10:1), (Jeremiah 23:6), (Romans 9:27), (Romans 11:26), (Acts 5:31) , (Acts 13:24) , (Revelation 21:12).

      The promises are as follows:

      Israel will be saved (all people? No, Just Israel):
      Isaiah 45:17
      But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

      Romans 10:1
      Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

      Jeremiah 23:6


      In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

      Romans 9:27
      Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

      Romans 11:26-27
      [26]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
      Repentance and Forgiveness of Sins will be given to Israel (not Christians or any other nation)
      Acts 5:30-31
      The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

      Acts 13:23-24
      Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
      Oh check that script again. Did God raise Jesus unto all nations or Christians. No, God of Israel raised Jesus unto Israel. Oh it makes so much sense now.

      Who is getting the Kingdom? Christians all nations? Let's see:
      Revelation 21:11-12
      Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
      [12]And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
      Is the Bible for Chrisitianity or Israelites? Bible says the kingdom is for the twelve tribes of Israel.


      Paul stated, "I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." Then goes on to say, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

      If we continue reading the rest of the chapter, it appears the reason he had sorrow in his heart was because his own people, "the Jews" were rejecting Christ. He states in verse 32, "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"

      I think bottom line, it hurt Paul to see them in a lost state of unbelief.

      Romans 9
      30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
      31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
      32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
      33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

        Fortunately God is not finished with Israel:
        Rom 11:25-29
        (25)* For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
        (26)* And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
        (27)* For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
        (28)* As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
        (29)* For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

        But if the covenants and promises belong to Israel, where does that leave the Gentiles? Did you notice that there is no 'Gentile Gate' in the New Jerusalem?
        Eph 2:11-13
        (11)* Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
        (12)* That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
        (13)* But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

        You see, many Christians have the process backword. They will say that one joins to the church upon salvation. In reality, we are joining to Israel, being made nigh to the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise. As a Gentile, upon accepting Christ, you are becoming an adopted child of Abraham, and also of Isaac, and of Jacob/Israel. And therefore, all those promises and covenants that belong to Israel, we are joined to.
        That said, it is a grave error to think that we Gentile Christians have REPLACED Israel who is the apple of God's eye. God made a promise to Abraham. Those who bless Israel He will bless. Those who curse Israel, He will curse.

        Comment


        • #5
          And from them came the Messiah, who is over all. Praised be Adonai for ever! Amen. Romans 9:5
          Originally posted by amikamisrael View Post
          Romans 9:3-4 states:
          3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
          4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

          The Israelites were adopted by God of Israel to be his chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6).
          The covenants of God of Israel belong to the Israelites (Deuteronomy 29:1)
          The Israelites witnessed God's glory (Exodus 24:17

          Repentance and Forgiveness of Sins will be given to Israel (not Christians or any other nation)
          Acts 5:30-31
          The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

          The promises are as follows:
          Isaiah 45:17
          But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
          Israel will be saved (all people? No, Just Israel):
          Salvation is from the Jews, (John 4:22) "...I will also give [My Servant] as a light to the Gentiles,That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth," Isaiah 49:6.

          I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen—
          That the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23

          “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the children of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. Acts 10

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by amikamisrael View Post
            Romans 9:3-4 states:
            3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
            4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

            This is the correct understanding of Romans 9:3-4: Paul is saying that he wishes that he could sacrifice himself, his right to Christ's kingdom, for the sake of his brethren the Israelites:

            The Israelites were adopted by God of Israel to be his chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6).
            Deuteronomy 7:6
            For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
            The Israelites witnessed God's glory (Exodus 24:17).
            Exodus 24:17
            And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

            The covenants of God of Israel belong to the Israelites (Deuteronomy 29:1) and (Hebrews 8:10):
            Deuteronomy 29:1
            These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
            Hebrews 8:10
            [10]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:



            The laws of God of Israel were given to the Israelites because they are his people (Leviticus 26:46):
            Leviticus 26:46
            [46]These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

            The service of God of Israel through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites (Exodus 25:2&9) (Deuternomy 4:1):
            Exodus 25:2&9
            Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
            The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites (Isaiah 45:17), (Romans 10:1), (Jeremiah 23:6), (Romans 9:27), (Romans 11:26), (Acts 5:31) , (Acts 13:24) , (Revelation 21:12).

            The promises are as follows:

            Israel will be saved (all people? No, Just Israel):
            Isaiah 45:17
            But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

            Romans 10:1
            Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

            Jeremiah 23:6


            In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

            Romans 9:27
            Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

            Romans 11:26-27
            [26]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
            Repentance and Forgiveness of Sins will be given to Israel (not Christians or any other nation)
            Acts 5:30-31
            The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

            Acts 13:23-24
            Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
            Oh check that script again. Did God raise Jesus unto all nations or Christians. No, God of Israel raised Jesus unto Israel. Oh it makes so much sense now.

            Who is getting the Kingdom? Christians all nations? Let's see:
            Revelation 21:11-12
            Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
            [12]And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
            Is the Bible for Chrisitianity or Israelites? Bible says the kingdom is for the twelve tribes of Israel.
            I don't believe Paul wished to be damned for his brethren, the Jews. Rather, he was willing to die, or to suffer, the curses of disobedience if that would allow him to take the guilt of his people away. He is saying he would be willing to go through what Jesus did.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TMarcum View Post
              Re: Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

              Paul stated, "I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart." Then goes on to say, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

              If we continue reading the rest of the chapter, it appears the reason he had sorrow in his heart was because his own people, "the Jews" were rejecting Christ. He states in verse 32, "Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;"

              I think bottom line, it hurt Paul to see them in a lost state of unbelief.

              Romans 9
              30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
              31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
              32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
              33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
              Good post. You went straight to the heart of the narrative.

              Comment

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