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Thread: Biggest stumbling block in my faith

  1. #1

    Biggest stumbling block in my faith

    I have very heated debates with a lot of my friends from time to time. They use a lot of standard arguments against creation and Christianity, and I've become fairly good at countering them. There's one that always gets me though, and it has started to really bother me.

    --- I can't find scripture that explains how God judges those who weren't ABLE to find Jesus, or hadn't the mental capability to keep from sinning or to realize their sins were indeed wrong. The classic example is a child dying at a very young age. Some other more difficult ones are, those who have grown up in constant war/poverty/death, and have never known love or kindness. Those who kill not because they want to, but because they have no choice in order to survive. Is this just a question which can't be answered, only conjectured?

    --- Another one that I can't even begin to answer. It is true that people are born with disabilities, and people are born in situations which lead them to lives of sin more so than the situations that most of us have grown up in. Are these people condemned at birth? Does God create some of us knowing that we will not accept Jesus Christ??

  2. #2
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    There are verses in the Bible that speak of a child reaching the age of accountability. There are many in war torn places who come to know Jesus every day, those people take away the excuse of those in the same situation that reject Him. Same with those born with disabilities, many of them love the Lord and those very same take away the excuse of others in their same shoes.

    And finally, God knows who is capable of making a decision and who is not, like he knows you are capable of making a decision so you will be held accountable.

    Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,




  3. #3
    I can't find scripture that explains how God judges those who weren't ABLE to find Jesus, or hadn't the mental capability to keep from sinning or to realize their sins were indeed wrong. The classic example is a child dying at a very young age.
    To answer to the question about those who can't know, died very young, were aborted babies, etc..:

    Paul says that we become like the angels. In fact, one day we will judge the angels. I think those who died fitting the category you just described also become like the angels, but less so able to judge the angels. But even the angels, they all had to face that critical point in their relationship with God: do they follow God, or Lucifer, as 1/3 of them did?

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    Hi Jon, and welcome to the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon87 View Post
    --- I can't find scripture that explains how God judges those who weren't ABLE to find Jesus, or hadn't the mental capability to keep from sinning or to realize their sins were indeed wrong. The classic example is a child dying at a very young age.
    The Bible teaches that God searches the heart. A Biblical example of a child dying at a young age is seen in 1 Kings 14. Jeroboam, the wicked ruler of the northern tribes of Israel, had a young son who became ill, and was going to die. Jeroboam and all his household were doomed because of pervasive evil. But the child would die from his illness, and this is what would happen:

    1 Kings 14:13
    13 And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he is the only one of Jeroboam who shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something good toward the LORD God of Israel in the house of Jeroboam.
    NKJV

    God knows our hearts and searches our hearts. Whatever revelation a given person receives, is what he will be judged by, not what he doesn't receive. In this time, God has a way of getting the gospel to people who are prepared to receive Him, even in the most unlikely ways and places.

    Also read Romans 2:12-16.

    Some other more difficult ones are, those who have grown up in constant war/poverty/death, and have never known love or kindness. Those who kill not because they want to, but because they have no choice in order to survive. Is this just a question which can't be answered, only conjectured?
    Any time you're talking hypothetically, one can only answer with conjectures. I suppose you could give examples of people who grow up like that and never know any goodness. There is also the occasional person who, in spite of such things, will rise above it.

    --- Another one that I can't even begin to answer. It is true that people are born with disabilities, and people are born in situations which lead them to lives of sin more so than the situations that most of us have grown up in. Are these people condemned at birth? Does God create some of us knowing that we will not accept Jesus Christ??
    I'm not sure what disability has to do with sin. And it seems that you are basing the question on the premise that one's circumstances dictate how relatively good or sinful they will be. I don't agree that this is the case, necessarily. We make the choices that we make. People justify their choices, but that doesn't mean they truly were forced by their circumstances.
    Love In Christ,
    Tanya







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    There is another thread about this that has some very good discussion on it.

    Scroll through the threads and you should find it. I hope this helps.
    Romans 15:30 KJV 30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon87 View Post
    . Is this just a question which can't be answered, only conjectured?
    I suggest both have the same answer, as I trust Him to always do what is Just - and I don't need to know in advance what that will be.

  7. #7
    Partaker of Christ Guest
    My understanding is;

    "Today if you hear His Voice, harden not your heart"

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

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    Greetings,

    You mentioned the classic example being the child dying at a young age. Here's a classic Scripture for that:
    21His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”
    22He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

    The Holy Bible : Today's New International Version. 2005 (2 Sa 12:21-23). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

    David states he will go to the child. I'm sure he wasn't referring to Hell.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    I believe God is just, so He will not judge anyone who does not know they have done any wrong, as in children who die before the age of accountability, before they get to know good and evil, up to that point they are like Adam and Eve before they understood what it was to disobey God. I think any body with a mental disability that impairs their judgment would qualify as well, provided they were born that way.

    In the case of those who were never reached with the gospel, it is my personal opinion that they will be judged solely on the basis of their works, whether they were good or evil, and that will be after the millennium before the Great White Throne Judgment of God. (Rev 20:11-15. 11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 20:14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 20:15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.) Some may disagree with me on this, but I think it's clear that those who never heard about salvation through "The Lamb" won't be judged by their name being or not being written on "The Lamb's Book of Life." That is one judgment, and of those who were given the chance to accept salvation through "The Lamb" to them applies the "whosoever" of verse 15. But the rest who never heard the gospel, they will be judged according to what's written on the books, according to their works, and I gather very few if any will be saved, since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23.)

    I think ultimately people who bring-up this questions do it to divert attention away from their own situation, as if to say that if God grants salvation without Christ to some individuals, then God is not fair if He judges them for not accepting Christ. However it is our responsibility to point-out that they are not exempt from having to deal with salvation through Christ just because they think it's not fair, if they don't like the rules they should take it-up with the one who made them, so remind them that since they know about Christ and salvation through grace, they will be judged on that basis if they choose to reject it.

    Remind them about Hebrews 2:3 "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"

    Keep the focus on Jesus! and if you're not a Bible scholar or a Theologian, don't feel bad if you don't know all the answers, it's OK to say "I don't know about that, but I know this..." and always bring the conversation back to Jesus, make them face-up to this question, "What will you do about Jesus?."
    Give my good Reps to Him, Tell Him about my bad ones!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon87 View Post
    I have very heated debates with a lot of my friends from time to time. They use a lot of standard arguments against creation and Christianity, and I've become fairly good at countering them. There's one that always gets me though, and it has started to really bother me.

    --- I can't find scripture that explains how God judges those who weren't ABLE to find Jesus, or hadn't the mental capability to keep from sinning or to realize their sins were indeed wrong. The classic example is a child dying at a very young age. Some other more difficult ones are, those who have grown up in constant war/poverty/death, and have never known love or kindness. Those who kill not because they want to, but because they have no choice in order to survive. Is this just a question which can't be answered, only conjectured?

    --- Another one that I can't even begin to answer. It is true that people are born with disabilities, and people are born in situations which lead them to lives of sin more so than the situations that most of us have grown up in. Are these people condemned at birth? Does God create some of us knowing that we will not accept Jesus Christ??
    Jon87 Greetings

    Faith is trusting even when you don't have all the details.

    God is perfect goodness.

    God is perfect righteousness.

    God is perfect justice.

    God is perfect love.

    Knowing all this, it shouldn't be necessary to know all the details.

    God has not given you all the details. He wants you to trust Him. It is called faith.

    In Jesus Christ, terrell

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon87 View Post
    --- I can't find scripture that explains how God judges those who weren't ABLE to find Jesus, or hadn't the mental capability to keep from sinning or to realize their sins were indeed wrong. The classic example is a child dying at a very young age. Some other more difficult ones are, those who have grown up in constant war/poverty/death, and have never known love or kindness. Those who kill not because they want to, but because they have no choice in order to survive. Is this just a question which can't be answered, only conjectured?
    It is reasonable to assume that all children who have not reached the maturity to decide for or against Christ will be saved.

    Jesus once said that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, we must become as little children:

    Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Be converted and become as little children! For such is the kingdom of heaven:

    Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

    --- Another one that I can't even begin to answer. It is true that people are born with disabilities, and people are born in situations which lead them to lives of sin more so than the situations that most of us have grown up in. Are these people condemned at birth? Does God create some of us knowing that we will not accept Jesus Christ??
    Are such people born unable to keep from sinning? Anyone with the ability to choose right and wrong is accountable. Anyone NOT able to choose is not. It's simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon87 View Post
    I have very heated debates with a lot of my friends from time to time. They use a lot of standard arguments against creation and Christianity, and I've become fairly good at countering them. There's one that always gets me though, and it has started to really bother me.

    --- I can't find scripture that explains how God judges those who weren't ABLE to find Jesus, or hadn't the mental capability to keep from sinning or to realize their sins were indeed wrong. The classic example is a child dying at a very young age. Some other more difficult ones are, those who have grown up in constant war/poverty/death, and have never known love or kindness. Those who kill not because they want to, but because they have no choice in order to survive. Is this just a question which can't be answered, only conjectured?

    --- Another one that I can't even begin to answer. It is true that people are born with disabilities, and people are born in situations which lead them to lives of sin more so than the situations that most of us have grown up in. Are these people condemned at birth? Does God create some of us knowing that we will not accept Jesus Christ??

    God knows what He's doing and He is a righteous and just Judge. He is a God of love and compassion, that should be enough to answer anybody, including your own doubts.

    1Cr 2:1¶And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.1Cr 2:2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


    The better you know our Lord, the better you will be able to answer such questions, and the less you will doubt.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    God knows what He's doing and He is a righteous and just Judge. He is a God of love and compassion, that should be enough to answer anybody, including your own doubts.
    ...
    Gen 18. ...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey0 View Post
    You don't have to understand anything of the bible to be saved.
    What do you think of what Paul says here:

    Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Do you believe people will be saved who have no understanding of who Jesus is?
    Last edited by Matt14; Jan 29th 2008 at 03:52 AM. Reason: typo

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    Cool Effective

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon87 View Post
    I have very heated debates with a lot of my friends from time to time. They use a lot of standard arguments against creation and Christianity, and I've become fairly good at countering them. There's one that always gets me though, and it has started to really bother me.

    --- I can't find scripture that explains how God judges those who weren't ABLE to find Jesus, or hadn't the mental capability to keep from sinning or to realize their sins were indeed wrong. The classic example is a child dying at a very young age. Some other more difficult ones are, those who have grown up in constant war/poverty/death, and have never known love or kindness. Those who kill not because they want to, but because they have no choice in order to survive. Is this just a question which can't be answered, only conjectured?

    --- Another one that I can't even begin to answer. It is true that people are born with disabilities, and people are born in situations which lead them to lives of sin more so than the situations that most of us have grown up in. Are these people condemned at birth? Does God create some of us knowing that we will not accept Jesus Christ??
    Just a word of encouragement. Live Christ to the fullest. Nothing can convince your friends more than this.
    Life! Just Live It!
    http://www.lifeblog.co.nr/

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