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Thread: Did Paul Teach Torah

  1. #1
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    Did Paul Teach Torah

    These are some of the teaching of Paul that are not from the 10 Commandments, but recorded and listed within the teachings/laws of God in the Torah.


    Why do people not consider them Torah? What are they if they are not Torah?
    They are the judgments of God, and they still apply in spirit by the Spirit.


    Saul taught against fornication. This is torah, not a new law, but old.
    Eph 5:3 - But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

    Saul taught against sexual immorality. This is torah, not a new law.
    1Co 5:1 -It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!

    Are these not teachings of torah handed to Israel from Mt. Sinai? Why is Paul reteaching them if they are no longer applicable?


    What has to be seen are the principles behind what Paul taught. Paul taught from the torah. He taught principles, doctrine, and lifestyle from the torah. He had no choice but to teach from it because it was all he had to teach from. This above Scripture provide clear evidence that he endorsed elements of the Torah in addition to the Ten Commandments. The breaking of the torah was manifested by the following dead works.


    Galatians5:19-21 19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



    These are the dead works which are manifested when we act in lawlessness and live contrary to the teachings of God. These are conclusions and manifestations of what was spelled out in detail in the first covenant torah.
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

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  2. #2
    What are you asking did Paul teach the Five books of Moses ?

    What do you mean when you say Torah ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    What do you mean when you say Torah ?
    This is a very good and important question. I think that the status of the Torah is one of the more complex and difficult questions that we have to deal with. In saying this, I am implicitly rejecting the line of thinking that runs something like this "God would not make this issue complex and difficult to grasp". I happen to think that the status of the Torah is indeed a complex problem.

    And, without going into the details in this post, I believe that while the Torah as a set of practices and ritual that marked out the Jew from the Gentile has been retired, the essence of Torah has been affirmed and is still in force. Of course, this gives rise to a whole spate of other questions.....

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    Thumbs up

    Whether you mean the first 5 books or all Jewish writings, surely it is logical as you say - that Paul taught from it. God reveals his Will, Jesus (God made flesh) explains it further and Paul teaches both, makes sense to me.



    BIG SofTy SofT outside, bible core!

  5. #5
    May sound like nit picking but the Word Torah has more than two meanings.

    Heres a few definitions i just wanted to get a better understanding of what the post was about ?



    Torah (תּוֹרָה)–meaning “Instruction” (not “law”) and is composed of the “five books of Moses” also called Pentateuch in Greek.

    Torah : The holy book of Judaism. It describes the creation of the world, the history of ancient Israel, the Ten Commandments, and contains the Psalms and the prophetic books.

    Torah (Hebrew, "learning," "law")

    The term "Torah" תורה, "teaching" or "instruction," sometimes translated as "Law,



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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    What are you asking did Paul teach the Five books of Moses ?

    What do you mean when you say Torah ?
    You know what I mean. I mean the same things you mean. The literal manner of application and spiritual principles of the every law of the torah.

    All the laws in their second covenant spiritual translation, just as circumcision of the heart was always what God wanted from those who responded to His covenant.

    I am not talking about the legalist manner of keeping the law that proves me righteous. I can only be proven righteous as Christ is my righteousness.
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manichunter View Post
    You know what I mean..
    No, you have a different meaning to Torah as others have,,,,, as I have noticed in another thread, therefor you are asked to give a definition of what you understand under :Torah..

    And yes, Paul did teach Torah, BUT he also taught freedom from Do's and Dont's
    The LORD is my Miracle

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by manichunter View Post
    You know what I mean. I mean the same things you mean. The literal manner of application and spiritual principles of the every law of the torah.

    All the laws in their second covenant spiritual translation, just as circumcision of the heart was always what God wanted from those who responded to His covenant.

    I am not talking about the legalist manner of keeping the law that proves me righteous. I can only be proven righteous as Christ is my righteousness.

    I really dont know buddy, i found it hard to follow the opening post with all the mention of Torah, as i've said the word has different meanings in different contexts, i'm not trying to pick holes i just find it hard to follow.

    Are you meaning Torah = Law as in commands ?

    If you do, i agree Paul reiterated some commands to the gentiles that were not familiar with the God of Israel on how to live. You mentioned the commands Paul gave to the gentiles and these were aparently needed as they were no doubt practicing them until Paul shed the light of the Gospel and instructed them.


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    Quote Originally Posted by manichunter View Post
    These are some of the teaching of Paul that are not from the 10 Commandments, but recorded and listed within the teachings/laws of God in the Torah.


    Why do people not consider them Torah? What are they if they are not Torah?
    They are the judgments of God, and they still apply in spirit by the Spirit.


    Saul taught against fornication. This is torah, not a new law, but old.
    Eph 5:3 - But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;

    Saul taught against sexual immorality. This is torah, not a new law.
    1Co 5:1 -It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!

    Are these not teachings of torah handed to Israel from Mt. Sinai? Why is Paul reteaching them if they are no longer applicable?


    What has to be seen are the principles behind what Paul taught. Paul taught from the torah. He taught principles, doctrine, and lifestyle from the torah. He had no choice but to teach from it because it was all he had to teach from. This above Scripture provide clear evidence that he endorsed elements of the Torah in addition to the Ten Commandments. The breaking of the torah was manifested by the following dead works.


    Galatians5:19-21 19Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



    These are the dead works which are manifested when we act in lawlessness and live contrary to the teachings of God. These are conclusions and manifestations of what was spelled out in detail in the
    first covenant torah.
    Before there became problems in the churches and Paul had to addess those problems, this is what he said he taught.

    Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

    Paul was concerned with those things regarding Jesus.

    Firstfruits

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobunaga View Post
    I really dont know buddy, i found it hard to follow the opening post with all the mention of Torah, as i've said the word has different meanings in different contexts, i'm not trying to pick holes i just find it hard to follow.

    Are you meaning Torah = Law as in commands ?

    If you do, i agree Paul reiterated some commands to the gentiles that were not familiar with the God of Israel on how to live. You mentioned the commands Paul gave to the gentiles and these were aparently needed as they were no doubt practicing them until Paul shed the light of the Gospel and instructed them.
    Why all the suspicion. I mean teachings. I am amazed at the manner of how we treat each others as competitors. I do not mean you any harm. I was thinking maybe by the amount of post you have that you possible ran into me. My bad for assuming such.

    I was just trying to be humorous and failed miserably. But all is well. I meant teachings and instructions as it is actually translated as such in the Tanakh. It is translated as teachings and laws together. I mean whenever the torah is mentioned in the Tanakh, both words are used at the same time in the same sentence.
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

    www.woc-church.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by ACCM View Post
    No, you have a different meaning to Torah as others have,,,,, as I have noticed in another thread, therefor you are asked to give a definition of what you understand under :Torah..

    And yes, Paul did teach Torah, BUT he also taught freedom from Do's and Dont's
    BINGO! And it causes many to resist the message. Paul did not teach "torah". Paul taught the spiritual law of God which was part of the torah but not the whole torah. Very good ACCM. He certainly didn't teach to abstain from pigs. When he spoke of not eating meat offered to idols he spoke not of the letter, but of loving your neighbor and not causing them to fall.

    The torah was partial and shadow. It was not the complete word of God. God's word is far larger than the torah though the torah is included in the word of God.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    BINGO! And it causes many to resist the message. Paul did not teach "torah". Paul taught the spiritual law of God which was part of the torah but not the whole torah. Very good ACCM. He certainly didn't teach to abstain from pigs. When he spoke of not eating meat offered to idols he spoke not of the letter, but of loving your neighbor and not causing them to fall.

    The torah was partial and shadow. It was not the complete word of God. God's word is far larger than the torah though the torah is included in the word of God.
    So you do respect elements of Spiritual Torah. I think I am greatly misunderstood. I respect certain elements as well. Some of it only applies to me in a spiritual sense and others are literal.

    Ex. I am suppose to not charge my brother interest on a loan, because of brother love and kindness. And if he cannot pay me back, then I count the money as lost in the spirit of forgiveness and grace. I do not suppose to even loan anything in the spirit of expectation. If I laon something, then I am usually thinking it is money that I can do without.

    Ex. I am not suppose to commit physically adultery , moreover I am not even suppose to have an adulterous attitude and mindset.

    I could go on and on. I have researched and continue to go one by one.

    AND no I have not gotten to pig yet.
    Edify the brethren, love the brethren, and forgive the brethren until I have nothing left.

    www.woc-church.org

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by manichunter View Post
    So you do respect elements of Spiritual Torah. I think I am greatly misunderstood. I respect certain elements as well. Some of it only applies to me in a spiritual sense and others are literal.
    Right. But almost everyone thinks first 5 books of the bible when they read torah. And they would be correct with that definition. It is not God. It is simply his teachings in shadow form of something much, much greater. Some of torah has just secular law. Some is only shadow. Some of it is his law that existed from the beginning. Some of it has faded away. Some of it is incorporated into the new covenant. This is why we rightly divided the word of God.

    Ex. I am suppose to not charge my brother interest on a loan, because of brother love and kindness. And if he cannot pay me back, then I count the money as lost in the spirit of forgiveness and grace. I do not suppose to even loan anything in the spirit of expectation. If I laon something, then I am usually thinking it is money that I can do without.
    Sure. We are to love our brother.

    Ex. I am not suppose to commit physically adultery , moreover I am not even suppose to have an adulterous attitude and mindset.
    Sure. It keeps with not coveting.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Did Paul teach the Torah ?

    No he did not, but will have my own post to show why not. But in the mean time , turn to Roms 13:8-10. Here paul is saying

    1) v8, owe no man anything

    2) love one another and fulfill the Law of Moses

    3) v9 Paul says , don't commit adultery

    4) don't kill

    5) don't steal

    6) don't cover

    7) love thy neigbour

    8) so fulfill the Law of Moses

    In Mark 12: 30, they asked Jesus what is the first commandment , , Hear O Isreal , The Lord our God is one Lord,v30 and you should love Him with all thy soul, and with all of your mind, and with all of your strength.


    The reason I believe that Paul did not have to mention this is because WE ARE IN CHRIST.

  15. #15
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    Acts 21

    19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
    20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
    21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
    22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
    23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
    24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
    25As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
    26Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
    my question is this:
    If The law (spritual or ceremonial) was in any way diminished, why did James and the elders admonish Paul to continue on the sacrificial system, and why did Paul submit to their authority?

    Side Note: read further and it was the Pharisees who had a problem with Paul continuing in the "ceremonial" law.

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