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Thread: The White Horse

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    I agree, they are symbols to illustrate to us what God is doing. And Jesus is opening the scroll as He is the only one worthy, the only one worthy to determine and deliver judgments. To me, all four horses are symbols of that judgment, the context is the One who is worthy opening the seals on the scroll of end times judgments that will befall those upon the earth who have rejected Him.

    The white horse and its rider reflect the false one that the peoples of the earth will follow, just as is stated elsewhere in scripture, they refused the Truth and are now accepting the Lie.
    QD,
    I have studied prophetic scriptures for a long time. I know that in order to proclaim that a certain passage means something other than what it says, there has to be enough evidence to collaborate with the assertation. In regard to the rider and the white horse, there isn't any collaboration that would cause anyone who has analyzed scripture to agree with the dispensational view that a holy, righteous, strong symbolic horse that goes forth conquering and seeking conquest is anything other than something connected to God himself. None of the classic signs of evil are found in this passage.

    No horns.
    No color of darkness (pale-green, red, black, etc).
    No connection to the evil one. (The white horse and rider were in heaven, especially when he was given a crown, nothing evil is given authority from heaven while in heaven).

    There is nothing here to suggest that the white horse is anything evil. I'm sorry, but there truly isn't.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    like David Taylor said, the four horsemen are not literal, but symbols. Therefore, the symbols themselves are by what we are to just these four.
    This sentence doesn't make sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    For instance, what does the bow represent? IN antiquity, the bow held the very same meaning as the horn.
    It represented strength. The meaning of the bow is that the rider of the white horse was strong. Likened to the Gospel, which is strong enough to overcome an and all obsticles, both physical and spiritual.
    Where is this in the bible?


    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    This is very important. Usually, the good guys are described as having bows, which David has been described as in the OT. The bad guys are described as having horns. Notice that Jesus is not described at all with horns, nor are the saints. Rather, the Beast, the Dragon, and the false prophet are all described with horns, representing evil power.
    I didn't say Jesus had horns.


    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    What the bow is used for is irrelevant in determining the meaning of symbols in prophetic literature, as is the main usage of horns.
    Then why did you give me the antiquity meaning?


    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    WHere was the horseman when he was given a crown? Was he not in heaven?
    You've injected something into passage by assuming that the rider is in heaven. Pretty sure it doesn't mention where this coronation happens. John is in heaven, but the horses are on the earth. Are you suggesting that the all the other horses and their riders are riding along in heaven with the white horse? Secondly, for your interpretation to make sense, the Gospel has to be on the earth. Thirdly, John saw and wrote Revelation after Pentecost, so what would be the purpose of having digressive revelation of a past event?

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    If this is so, then only the King of Heaven can give a crown, and no one else.
    Amen.

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    Therefore, the crown, or authority that the white horse is given represents the power of the kingdom of Heaven, which the Gospel gives all of those who believe in it.
    So the Lord doesn't give authority to people who misuse it?


    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    What happened at Penticost? Did the Gospel go out conquering and seeking to conquer more?
    You seem to think that it did, but that doesn't convince me of anything. Is there another verse that describes this conquering Gospel riding forth?

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    Now, this is a text-book definition of using scripture to prove other scripture does not work. What color was the beast in verse 1? Was he white? Did He have a bow, or did he have horns? Did e come conquering from the outset?
    And this is text book of the same tactic - What color is the Word? Was it white? Did it have a bow, or horns?

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    Was the beast given a crown?
    Yes he was given authority over the entire planet, I'd say it's not a far stretch to say he had a crown on. Was the Gospel given a crown?


    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    Who gave him that authority, and was he in heaven when he did it?
    God did; the passage doesn't mention where the rider was in relation to heaven and earth, but God was defintely in heaven when He raised up this king.

    [quote=third hero;1781118]While there may be some similarities between what Satan does to the beast and the descriptions of the white horse, there are some VAST differences that separate the two.

    In my opinion, there are just as many VAST differences in interpreting this as the gospel, i.e. there no other passages that describe the Word with the same attributes as the white rider, only inferences.

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    1. The event of Revelation 13 happens on earth, not in heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    WHere was the horseman when he was given a crown? Was he not in heaven?
    Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be come contradiction with these 2 statements.


    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    2. The Beast is not described as having a bow. Instead, he has horns, ten of them.
    Indeed neither does the Gospel.


    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    3. He does not come conquering and seeking to conquer, for he is first mentioned in chapter 11, BEFORE his advent.
    Ah, we come the truth of the matter. Revelation 11 and 13 are both parenthetical sections, not chronological.

    Revelation 11 is giving an overview of the ministry of the 2 witnesses during the Great Tribulation (1260 days). Then the witness are killed and resurrected before the Second Advent which is Rev. 11:15 and on.

    Revelation 13 is an overview of the ministry (or activities) of Antichrist and the False Prophet during the previously mentioned (yet same time frame) 1260 days.

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    Last, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Beast, which you call the AnitChrist, is not described with the color white.
    And neither is the Gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    Therefore, there is no evidence that shows that the white horse is anything other than the Gospel, and the personnification of all who have, hold, and spread it.
    I wholeheartedly disagree
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by gophgetter View Post
    These are some great post. Very informative. I personally believe that the rider of the white horse in Rev. 6:2 is Jesus Christ. The reason He is riding the white horse is because the white horse represents the early church which He held the reins of. The question was asked "Did Jesus open the first seal and reveal Himself?". You will notice that the seals began to opened after the Lamb was slain. It seems plain to me that these seals began to be opened immediately after Jesus died, resurrected and ascended, not 2,000 years later. The book that was sealed was the plan of salvation. Jesus was the one who was able to open that book and look thereon. Even the Old Testament prophets that prophesied of the plan of salvation that was in the Old Covenant did not understand what they were prophesying of.

    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

    1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    Jesus unloosed the 1st seal and the 1st beast that says "come and see" has the face of a Lion. This Lion is none other than the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus Christ. As the 1st seal is looosed, we see the early church going forth victoriously with Jesus holding the reins as the head of the church. But then we see the color of the horse change in the 2nd seal to red. Red is the color of man. The name Adam means "red earth". This is why John said "I beheld another horse". As the spirit of man began to be more prevalent than the Spirit of God, the gospel began to be perverted. Notice what Paul says about false prophets entering in and trying to change the gospel in 2 Cor. 11.

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    The beast that introduces the 2nd seal has the face of a calf which is a picture of sacrifice. As men began to creep into the early church, the Apostles and saints began to be martyred and persecuted. As the Apostles began to be killed, men began to become bolder about perverting the truth of the gospel and drawing away the disciples after themselves. Thus began the falling away of the church.
    Re 6:1 ¶ And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
    2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    The Lamb is a symbol of Jesus Christ (John 1:29). The seals show the conditions, under which salvation were offered in each age. By studying them it will help our vision in seeing clearly what is required of us in our day.

    The first symbol to study is thunder. Thunder is an echo or a report of a flash of lightning that has already occurred. So we understand it is pointing back to events of the past, in the case to Pentecost, when the church went forth conquering and to conqueror.

    John in his vision saw a white horse going forth in battle. The horse is a symbol of warfare and a spirit, i.e. the militant spirit, which is taken from the Romans’ military and civil life. Zech 5:1-5; Jer. 6:23; 8:6.

    White is a symbol of purity (holiness). It takes a pure, holy people to fight against wrong and conqueror. So we see the church is depicted by a white horse and its rider, a militant conquering spirit, or influence for God (Christ).

    The bow is a offensive weapon, shooting forth arrows of truth. Jer. 50:14, 15. We are not to sympathize with Babylon or sin, but blow the trumpet and shoot arrows of fiery truth at anything that isn’t holiness unto the Lord.

    The crown represents victory. Victory must first be won before a crown is given. The church has victory over sin, and opposition.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    You guys know I just have to put my two cents in, but I believe, though the horses are symbolic, they describe a real reality. Thus, the first horse represents the AC, a wolf in sheep clothing. The color white, nor the horse, are the context, they are the prophectic symbols of a reality to come/be. They do not give the context and the context of all four horses is the wrath of the Lamb and what will be taking place on the earth because of His wrath upon those who reject Him.
    You can't define the context of this one verse all by itself.

    The entirety of the Revelation says that "white" is "righteousness." Strike one for the white horse being the bad guy.

    The entirety of the Revelation depicts evil for what it actually is: beasts, beasts, beasts, and a prostitute. Evil is depicted as evil. Even when people are deceived by the beast of the sea, he is still described as a beast. He is not described as a fake-good guy. He is described as a tyrannical bad guy that everyone fears and follows - i.e., he doesn't hide his wickedness behind a cloak of 'white.' Strike two for the white horse being the bad guy.

    The white horse symbol is explicitly used in connection with Christ later on in the Revelation. You accept that the "beast" symbol is used consistently to explain evil. You accept that "the sun and moon and stars" are used consistently to explain catastrophe. So, consistently, the best explanation for the white horse in chapter 6 is the use of it later in chapter 19, where it is directly connected to Christ. Strike three for the white horse being the bad guy.

    In the context of the entire Revelation, the white horse only fits as personifying righteousness of some sort, whether it be the gospel spreading outward, the Holy Spirit going outward, etc. Whether the white horse represents something in judgment or something in love or whatever, the interpretation that stands strongest in the light of the entire Revelation (and not a mere three or four verses) is that the white horse somehow represents something righteous and not evil.

    We know from other passages in the NT that those who refused the truth will accept the lie.
    AKA, "if you refuse to believe that this is the bad guy, then you will follow his lies when he shows up." That's essentially what you're getting at here.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    QD,
    I have studied prophetic scriptures for a long time. I know that in order to proclaim that a certain passage means something other than what it says, there has to be enough evidence to collaborate with the assertation. In regard to the rider and the white horse, there isn't any collaboration that would cause anyone who has analyzed scripture to agree with the dispensational view that a holy, righteous, strong symbolic horse that goes forth conquering and seeking conquest is anything other than something connected to God himself. None of the classic signs of evil are found in this passage.

    No horns.
    No color of darkness (pale-green, red, black, etc).
    No connection to the evil one. (The white horse and rider were in heaven, especially when he was given a crown, nothing evil is given authority from heaven while in heaven).

    There is nothing here to suggest that the white horse is anything evil. I'm sorry, but there truly isn't.
    Sit down before reading this 3H, but I have been studying it all for a long time also- just for the record.

    And we are clearly warned about wolves in sheep's clothing,
    And we are clearly told, not to mention can see it all around us, that men will get what they want. Their refusal of Light will get them darkness, and that darkness comes in a bright shiny white suite many times.

    So again, white, and horse, and lack of horns, are not the context in these verses. I agree, the white horse goes out to conquer and seeking conquest, but again, that is what he does, and does not change the context of the passages that Christ is opening the seals of judgment.




  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    You can't define the context of this one verse all by itself.

    The entirety of the Revelation says that "white" is "righteousness." Strike one for the white horse being the bad guy.

    The entirety of the Revelation depicts evil for what it actually is: beasts, beasts, beasts, and a prostitute. Evil is depicted as evil. Even when people are deceived by the beast of the sea, he is still described as a beast. He is not described as a fake-good guy. He is described as a tyrannical bad guy that everyone fears and follows - i.e., he doesn't hide his wickedness behind a cloak of 'white.' Strike two for the white horse being the bad guy.

    The white horse symbol is explicitly used in connection with Christ later on in the Revelation. You accept that the "beast" symbol is used consistently to explain evil. You accept that "the sun and moon and stars" are used consistently to explain catastrophe. So, consistently, the best explanation for the white horse in chapter 6 is the use of it later in chapter 19, where it is directly connected to Christ. Strike three for the white horse being the bad guy.

    In the context of the entire Revelation, the white horse only fits as personifying righteousness of some sort, whether it be the gospel spreading outward, the Holy Spirit going outward, etc. Whether the white horse represents something in judgment or something in love or whatever, the interpretation that stands strongest in the light of the entire Revelation (and not a mere three or four verses) is that the white horse somehow represents something righteous and not evil.

    AKA, "if you refuse to believe that this is the bad guy, then you will follow his lies when he shows up." That's essentially what you're getting at here.

    Bold language, no verses to support the ideas.
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    You can't define the context of this one verse all by itself.

    The entirety of the Revelation says that "white" is "righteousness." Strike one for the white horse being the bad guy.
    If we are considering the entire context of Revelation and how it effects the white horse, again, the context is judgment. The false teachings of those who corrupt the Light do not come dressed as monsters, but sheep.

    The entirety of the Revelation depicts evil for what it actually is: beasts, beasts, beasts, and a prostitute. Evil is depicted as evil. Even when people are deceived by the beast of the sea, he is still described as a beast. He is not described as a fake-good guy. He is described as a tyrannical bad guy that everyone fears and follows - i.e., he doesn't hide his wickedness behind a cloak of 'white.' Strike two for the white horse being the bad guy.
    The monster is what is underneath the fake sheep's outside. There are fake good guys everywhere teaching things and telling men things, under the guise of Christianity, that do nothing but lead the men away from faith in Christ and the Gospel of salvation through only Him. And not a one of them tends to look like a monster.

    The white horse symbol is explicitly used in connection with Christ later on in the Revelation. You accept that the "beast" symbol is used consistently to explain evil. You accept that "the sun and moon and stars" are used consistently to explain catastrophe. So, consistently, the best explanation for the white horse in chapter 6 is the use of it later in chapter 19, where it is directly connected to Christ. Strike three for the white horse being the bad guy.
    No strike three either. The description of this horse is included with a description of Christ righteousness, the rest of those passages describing Christ are far more important that the white horse.

    Rev 19:11
    Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


    There is no comparison in the descriptions of the rider of the white horse in Rev6 and here in Rev 19


    Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; ...... 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

    A crown, a bow? No sword. And the opening of the seal - judgment has begun.
    The color of the horse is not the determining factor in all that we are told. It's color tells us this one will look to be good, but the context tells us it will be a false good.

    In the context of the entire Revelation, the white horse only fits as personifying righteousness of some sort, whether it be the gospel spreading outward, the Holy Spirit going outward, etc. Whether the white horse represents something in judgment or something in love or whatever, the interpretation that stands strongest in the light of the entire Revelation (and not a mere three or four verses) is that the white horse somehow represents something righteous and not evil.
    The mere three or four verses would be included in the seals of judgment being openend and are within the Book in the Bible that deals primarily with God's judgment on the Christ rejecting world.
    AKA, "if you refuse to believe that this is the bad guy, then you will follow his lies when he shows up." That's essentially what you're getting at here.
    No, what I am saying is this is one that those who refuse the Truth, and the Light, Jesus Christ will follow. I never said anything about His sheep believing this false one. His sheep are capable of discerning those who teach a false Gospel, are they not doing that everyday now, so why would this future one be any different, they would discern his lies also. Your the one making the "AKA" implication, not me.




  8. #38
    As an aside, I'm sure we have all noticed that Hollywood doesn't even bother dressing up the good guys in white hats anymore. That stopped some time in the 80's. For example, the first two Star Wars: Luke Skywalker was dressed in white. Then in "Return of the Jedi", Luke Skywalker was dressed in black. And he looked good, too.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPet2_9 View Post
    As an aside, I'm sure we have all noticed that Hollywood doesn't even bother dressing up the good guys in white hats anymore. That stopped some time in the 80's. For example, the first two Star Wars: Luke Skywalker was dressed in white. Then in "Return of the Jedi", Luke Skywalker was dressed in black. And he looked good, too.
    The problem is, we are not talking about Hollywood or Star Wars, we are talking about those who distort Mercy and Grace into something that no longer is Salvation. And their good at it, because the leader of the lie is quite clever.




  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfulparousia View Post
    Bold language, no verses to support the ideas.

    the whole of revelation is used to support ideas.
    it is a constant theme in revelation that the beasts represent evil.
    when the AC gets adressed the language clearly says that e.g lamblike beast Rev13:11

    the living creatures in Rev4 is not evil, hence they are not called beasts.
    The white horse is not evil, hence it is not called a beast.

    bennie

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfulparousia View Post
    Bold language, no verses to support the ideas.
    Okay...

    Point 1 - The Use of the Color White in the Revelation
    Aside from the fact that multiple people already posted this, you seem to think there's "no verses to support the ideas." Since you apparently missed this mentioned (at least) twice on the first page of this thread... Here is a listing of every verse (other than the one in question) that mentions the word "white."

    Revelation 1:14
    His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

    Revelation 2:17
    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

    Revelation 3:4
    Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

    Revelation 3:5
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

    Revelation 3:18
    I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

    Revelation 4:4
    Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

    Revelation 6:11
    Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

    Revelation 7:9
    After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

    Revelation 7:13
    Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

    Revelation 7:14
    And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Revelation 14:14
    I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

    Revelation 15:6
    And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

    Revelation 19:8
    And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    Revelation 19:11
    I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

    Revelation 19:14
    The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Revelation 20:11
    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

    Every verse aside from 6:1-2 uses the color "white" in a righteous context. The Son of Man has white hair. The saints are clothed in white. The Son of Man is on a white cloud. God sits on a white throne. Christ rides on a white horse. A white stone is given to the saints. Every verse other than 6:2 uses "white" to denote righteousness or holiness or goodness. That's hardly "no verses to support."

    The tremendous consistency throughout the rest of the Revelation for its use of "white" practically demands that the white horse of 6:2 be interpreted as something righteous in some sense or another.

    Point 2 - Evil is Depicted as Evil in the Revelation
    In the instances where evil is explicitly mentioned, or terrible things are explicitly seen, it is always described with imagery that is negative by connotations.

    The Dragon of Revelation 12: In all of history, "dragons" have been seen as terrible and vile monsters. The dragon is not presented as trying to hide its wickedness - it flaunts it by trying to destroy "the woman" and her Child and the rest of her offspring.

    The Beast of the Sea of Revelation 13: The beast is described as a twisted amalgamation of a bear, a lion and a leopard - animals that are distinctly known to be violent. Aside from this, the dragon "lends" its power to the beast of the sea. This beast is described as having a "blasphemous" name, as uttering "blasphemies" and "proud words." He directly blasphemes God, and "slanders" the saints. He even makes war upon the saints. He is directly and openly described as being vicious and vile.

    The Beast of the Earth of Revelation 13: He is described as speaking as a dragon (again, an instantly negative connotation). He openly kills people who refuse to worship the first beast (the one that is openly vicious and vile).

    The Three Unclean Spirits of Revelation 16: They are described as frogs (not very attractive creatures, what with the slime and warts), and they came from the dragon (described in evil terms), and the two beasts (each also described in evil terms).

    The Prostitute Babylon of Revelation 17: She is described as committing adultery (a sin), drunkenness (a sin), and murder of the saints and prophets (a sin). She is called "The Mother of ... the Abominations of the Earth."

    The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17: The beast is described in the same manner as the Beast of the Earth. He is seen openly warring against the Lamb.

    Gog and Magog of Revelation 20: Described as marching to war against God's beloved people.

    The monster is what is underneath the fake sheep's outside. There are fake good guys everywhere teaching things and telling men things, under the guise of Christianity, that do nothing but lead the men away from faith in Christ and the Gospel of salvation through only Him. And not a one of them tends to look like a monster.
    Of all of the above, yes, the Dragon and the Beast of the Earth (the false prophet) do deceive people. But they are never described with the word "white," and nor are we described how they will appear to the people they deceive. They are all consistently depicted as they appear to God - evil, vile, wicked, sinful, vicious, and terrible. Beasts, dragons, prostitutes. They are all consistently described in relation to their true spiritual selves, and they are never described in relation to how good they may appear to the people they are tricking.

    Point 3 - Recognizing John's Consistency
    Not only would using the term "white" to describe even one of these evil things (even in their "masquerade") break the consistency of "white = righteousness" as presented in Point 1, it would also break the consistency that "evil is depicted as evil" as shown above in Point 2.

    Sure, there will be deceivers. But the Revelation always shows them for what they really are, not for what they pretend to be. Interpreting 6:2 as such only breaks the consistency of "white equals good" and "evil is described as evil".

    If John had actually said something or was told something to the extent that "the white horse is actually bad," then that might hold some ground. But he was never told such a thing, he never says such a thing, so one must interpret the passage in consistency with the rest of the book, which results in entirely the opposite notion of "the white horse is a bad guy pretending to be good," since we never see "white" used in relation to bad, and we never see "evil" described in terms of good throughout the whole of the book.

  12. #42
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    When the first 4 seals are opened the four horsemen are summoned and given authority, but it looks to me like they do not actually get unleashed to do anything until the 6th trumpet in Chapter 9:13-17. Are these four bound angels the same as the four horsemen?
    In Christ,

    -- Rev

    “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

  13. #43
    There's nothing strong to connect the four horsemen to the four angels anymore than connecting the four angels to the four living creatures. Other than their "fourness," there's nothing really similar about them.

  14. #44
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    More horses from the OT

    Is there a connection between the 4 horsemen in Revelation 6, and the horses seen by Zechariah in chapters 1 and 6?

    In Chapter 1 Zechariah sees a man on a red horse, and behind him riders on red, white and speckled horses. They seem to be doing reconnaissance for the Lord. In Chapter 6 Zechariah sees four teams of horses harnessed to chariots. The horses are black, white, red, and spotted. They are given permission to scatter and walk the earth, but don’t really do much. The black and white teams go to the North country and bring peace.
    In Christ,

    -- Rev

    “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Okay...

    Point 1 - The Use of the Color White in the Revelation
    Aside from the fact that multiple people already posted this, you seem to think there's "no verses to support the ideas." Since you apparently missed this mentioned (at least) twice on the first page of this thread... Here is a listing of every verse (other than the one in question) that mentions the word "white."

    Revelation 1:14
    His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

    Revelation 2:17
    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

    Revelation 3:4
    Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

    Revelation 3:5
    He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

    Revelation 3:18
    I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

    Revelation 4:4
    Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

    Revelation 6:11
    Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

    Revelation 7:9
    After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

    Revelation 7:13
    Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

    Revelation 7:14
    And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Revelation 14:14
    I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

    Revelation 15:6
    And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

    Revelation 19:8
    And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    Revelation 19:11
    I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.

    Revelation 19:14
    The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Revelation 20:11
    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

    Every verse aside from 6:1-2 uses the color "white" in a righteous context. The Son of Man has white hair. The saints are clothed in white. The Son of Man is on a white cloud. God sits on a white throne. Christ rides on a white horse. A white stone is given to the saints. Every verse other than 6:2 uses "white" to denote righteousness or holiness or goodness. That's hardly "no verses to support."

    The tremendous consistency throughout the rest of the Revelation for its use of "white" practically demands that the white horse of 6:2 be interpreted as something righteous in some sense or another.

    Point 2 - Evil is Depicted as Evil in the Revelation
    In the instances where evil is explicitly mentioned, or terrible things are explicitly seen, it is always described with imagery that is negative by connotations.

    The Dragon of Revelation 12: In all of history, "dragons" have been seen as terrible and vile monsters. The dragon is not presented as trying to hide its wickedness - it flaunts it by trying to destroy "the woman" and her Child and the rest of her offspring.

    The Beast of the Sea of Revelation 13: The beast is described as a twisted amalgamation of a bear, a lion and a leopard - animals that are distinctly known to be violent. Aside from this, the dragon "lends" its power to the beast of the sea. This beast is described as having a "blasphemous" name, as uttering "blasphemies" and "proud words." He directly blasphemes God, and "slanders" the saints. He even makes war upon the saints. He is directly and openly described as being vicious and vile.

    The Beast of the Earth of Revelation 13: He is described as speaking as a dragon (again, an instantly negative connotation). He openly kills people who refuse to worship the first beast (the one that is openly vicious and vile).

    The Three Unclean Spirits of Revelation 16: They are described as frogs (not very attractive creatures, what with the slime and warts), and they came from the dragon (described in evil terms), and the two beasts (each also described in evil terms).

    The Prostitute Babylon of Revelation 17: She is described as committing adultery (a sin), drunkenness (a sin), and murder of the saints and prophets (a sin). She is called "The Mother of ... the Abominations of the Earth."

    The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17: The beast is described in the same manner as the Beast of the Earth. He is seen openly warring against the Lamb.

    Gog and Magog of Revelation 20: Described as marching to war against God's beloved people.



    Of all of the above, yes, the Dragon and the Beast of the Earth (the false prophet) do deceive people. But they are never described with the word "white," and nor are we described how they will appear to the people they deceive. They are all consistently depicted as they appear to God - evil, vile, wicked, sinful, vicious, and terrible. Beasts, dragons, prostitutes. They are all consistently described in relation to their true spiritual selves, and they are never described in relation to how good they may appear to the people they are tricking.

    Point 3 - Recognizing John's Consistency
    Not only would using the term "white" to describe even one of these evil things (even in their "masquerade") break the consistency of "white = righteousness" as presented in Point 1, it would also break the consistency that "evil is depicted as evil" as shown above in Point 2.

    Sure, there will be deceivers. But the Revelation always shows them for what they really are, not for what they pretend to be. Interpreting 6:2 as such only breaks the consistency of "white equals good" and "evil is described as evil".

    If John had actually said something or was told something to the extent that "the white horse is actually bad," then that might hold some ground. But he was never told such a thing, he never says such a thing, so one must interpret the passage in consistency with the rest of the book, which results in entirely the opposite notion of "the white horse is a bad guy pretending to be good," since we never see "white" used in relation to bad, and we never see "evil" described in terms of good throughout the whole of the book.
    Thank you for the plethora of passages. Yet none of these are being contrasted with passages that depict the identity of the rider. These passages that "prove" that the rider is the Gospel are not about the Gospel but about your interpretation of the meaning of white - and it's explicit meaning of goodness.

    Revelation 6:2 doesn't mention the color of the rider, only the color of the horse he is on. If it were the Gospel, that would mean that the first seal was already opened. Why would the Lord show John something that had already happened by the time he saw the visions of Revelation?

    I.e. Pentecost had long gone when John saw Revelation on the island of Patmos.

    Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door having been opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after these things.

    The voice that calls John into heaven to receive the 6:2 vision of the white horse and rider says that these things will be future events.

    Why can't it be the Antichrist? Why does this offend your eschatological views?
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

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