Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 116

Thread: The White Horse

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    Is there a connection between the 4 horsemen in Revelation 6, and the horses seen by Zechariah in chapters 1 and 6?

    In Chapter 1 Zechariah sees a man on a red horse, and behind him riders on red, white and speckled horses. They seem to be doing reconnaissance for the Lord. In Chapter 6 Zechariah sees four teams of horses harnessed to chariots. The horses are black, white, red, and spotted. They are given permission to scatter and walk the earth, but don’t really do much. The black and white teams go to the North country and bring peace.
    Let the mountains of brass be showing us to place this prophecy in the latter days of the Greek Empire area. Daniel too saw that the Greek kingdom would not be finished till the end days.
    Let the horses of Zechariah show us the four spirits of the heavens.
    use the KJV

    these are the four spirts of the heavens

    What does that mean?
    Well, look at Isaiah 11:1-2. Why? Because Jesus will rule on the planet from His throne- and to do that will take - spirits.

    Compare that spirits part to Proverbs 8 as to what all rulers of the earth need.

    wisdom
    understanding

    counsel
    strength (might)

    knowledge

    fear of the LORD

    Zechariah chapter 5 ended by showing us that a kindom - a house / palace is to arise again in the land of Shinar at that appointed time.
    Shinar - would where be ancient Babylon was.
    /today Iraq

    So Iraq was to rise. It would be established - a kingdom - build it a house.
    To do this project - wiil take the spirits of rulers.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    south of the northern boarder
    Posts
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by bennie View Post
    the whole of revelation is used to support ideas.
    it is a constant theme in revelation that the beasts represent evil.
    when the AC gets adressed the language clearly says that e.g lamblike beast Rev13:11

    the living creatures in Rev4 is not evil, hence they are not called beasts.
    The white horse is not evil, hence it is not called a beast.

    bennie
    In the KJV the Rev 4 creatures are called beasts.
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Harrisburg, PA
    Posts
    1,314
    Blog Entries
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfulparousia View Post
    This sentence doesn't make sense to me.
    The sentence was suppose to say that we are to judge the horsemen as symbols, meaning in order to determine what they meant, we have to disect their meaning by disecting the symbols that are a part of them.

    Where is this in the bible?
    Have you read any of the OT? The Bow is symbolized in many passages along the Old Testament. The Meaning of the bow was the same as the meaning of the horn, and you can go to any dictionary or encyclopedia to read that for yourself. I do not have to find definitions of symbols in the Bible in order to recognize that those symbols are indeed symbols.

    This question makes absolutely no sense to me. Is the bow not a symbol because the Bible does not define it as so, even though it uses the Bow as a symbol more than any other book that we have today?


    I didn't say Jesus had horns.
    joyful.....
    If you do not understand the content, please feel free to ask me or look up the meaning of what I write to you using either a dictionary, an encyclopedia, or any other reference book that may aid you in understanding what I am saying.

    I'll say it again. Notice that in the entire book of Revelation, Jesus is not described with horns. Notice also that the white horse and rider do not have horns. However, the Beast, who you call the Antichrist, when described, have horns. The dragon has horns. Even the false prophet is described with horns on it's head. The horns in all of these cases represent strength, but it is used to describe evil strength. This is why every comic book writer, when drawing a devil, always have horns on their heads. This is also why Hellboy, who was born a demon, has his horn broken, symbolizing that the evil that was his is broken from him, and his evil power is gone. Again, the horn itself is a symbol, like the bow, and in Revelation, both are used. One to describe the strength of something Holy, (bow), and the other to describe the strength of something evil, (horn).

    My point? Whether or not a bow is used to shoot arrows does not play any role in determining whether the bow written in Revelation 6 is literal or symbolic. Therefore, one can not determine that the white horse is the Antichrist because he has a weapon. Remember, Jesus has a two-edged sword in His mouth when He returns. Does that make Him evil?


    Then why did you give me the antiquity meaning?
    You seem to think that because the rider of the white horse has a weapon, it automatically causes him to be something evil, which is completely incorrect. A bow shoots arrows, but that has nothing to do with why the bow was written there, or whether it can be used to determine whether this symbol is that of the Gospel, or that of the AntiChrist. The proper use of a symbolic word will convey the true meaning of a passage, and thus is the reason why I told you what the bow symbolized in antiquity.


    You've injected something into passage by assuming that the rider is in heaven. Pretty sure it doesn't mention where this coronation happens. John is in heaven, but the horses are on the earth. Are you suggesting that the all the other horses and their riders are riding along in heaven with the white horse? Secondly, for your interpretation to make sense, the Gospel has to be on the earth. Thirdly, John saw and wrote Revelation after Pentecost, so what would be the purpose of having digressive revelation of a past event?
    Again, this shows a misunderstanding of what the passage is and what it means by you. Where is Jesus when this seal is broken? IN heaven. Where was the horse? In heaven. There was no mentioning of it being anywhere else but in the place where Lord Jesus opened the first seal. This, again, is a symbol, with no literal meaning to it other than what the horse represents. I assumed nothing. It is my opinion that you injected something that clearly is not there. Like I have stated, Jesus, the scroll, and all of the seals were in heaven, where the horse popped out of. The scenery did not change simply because the seal had been broken.

    NOw understand this. The horses, the horsemen, and all of the seaqls of Revelation 6-7 are all symbols of what God is doing to bring about the end. It is appropriate for me to say that the first horseman is indeed representative of the overwhelming power, authority and might of the Gospel. The Gospel was not "unleashed" when the Lord opened the first seal. The only thing revealed by the opening of the first seal is that the Lord wanted all of us to know that before anything else can happen, the Gospel must be spread, and thus the rider of the white horse. The White horse represents the power and the spreading of the Gospel to all mankind, destroying Satanic strongholds and gaining strength by the minute. It represent's God's unyielding determination to gain as many of us humans into His kingdom as are willing, and thus sent the Gospel forth, conquering and bent on conquest.

    Whether or not the unleashing of the Gospel happened before John wrote this book or not, the point of the white horse was easily received back then. Before any of the other seals are broken, before any of the other signs of the end were to happen, the church must conquer and be bent on conquest. The church wasn't born when the seal was broken, the church's purpose was exalted before the Lord then, when the seal was broken.

    So the Lord doesn't give authority to people who misuse it?
    So you are continuing to say that the Beast was admitted into heaven? By Lord Jesus? Are you sure you want to say that?


    You seem to think that it did, but that doesn't convince me of anything. Is there another verse that describes this conquering Gospel riding forth?
    Acts 1:8. You might want to read it.

    And this is text book of the same tactic - What color is the Word? Was it white? Did it have a bow, or horns?
    Well, the Lord was described three times in Revelation. In all three of them, He was described with the color white. Hair white as snow, riding on a white horse, just to name a couple. In any of these cases, was Jesus viewed in any other light other than holy? In Revelation 15, those beheaded were given white robes. Where they agents of deception? Great White Throne of Judgment in Revelation 20, was that viewed as being Satan's throne room? Consistency is the key to understanding the symbolic definition of the colors in Revelation. John consistantly described holy people and righteous people as beingt people clothed in white. Jesus has a white horse. Is suddenly an agent of deception given the color white, when in every other mentioning of him, the color was not used? (Revelation chapters 13, 16, 17, & 19).

    Yes he was given authority over the entire planet, I'd say it's not a far stretch to say he had a crown on. Was the Gospel given a crown?
    What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?


    God did; the passage doesn't mention where the rider was in relation to heaven and earth, but God was defintely in heaven when He raised up this king.

    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Revelation 13:2

    Are you sure God gave the beast that authority and crown? Looks to me asa though Satan did it, and therefore, since at the point of the Beast's advent, Satan was cast out of heaven, the beast had gained no authority or crown from heaven. Again, this is one of the VAST diffferences that I was talking about earlier.

    Unless I'm mistaken, there seems to be come contradiction with these 2 statements.
    Actually, there is no contradiction in any of the statements that I have given to you. I asked questions for a reason, and that reason is to have you, the one I am questioning, read the book of Revelation and foind that answer.

    Joyful, it appears to me that you want ot change my mind concerning the White horse, based on what someone else told you. I mean, you say that God gave the Beast a crown when Revelation 13:2 clearly says that Satan did? I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that you have not read Revelation for yourself yet, and with that in mind, I humbly ask you to take the time to read this delightful book. I am not trying to be combative, or antagonistic. I am only saying that in order for you to debate this issue, you have to have read the book, and the answer you have given me tells me that you have not. So please, do read Revelation.

  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyfulparousia View Post
    Thank you for the plethora of passages. Yet none of these are being contrasted with passages that depict the identity of the rider. These passages that "prove" that the rider is the Gospel are not about the Gospel but about your interpretation of the meaning of white - and it's explicit meaning of goodness.

    Revelation 6:2 doesn't mention the color of the rider, only the color of the horse he is on.
    The color of the horse, the rider, it makes little difference. The important thing is that the color "white" is being used, and it is explicitly used throughout the whole book to singularly identify righteousness. I didn't say it was specifically the Gospel, but I did say that it must be interpreted in the same sense the "white stone" is interpreted or the "white robes" are interpreted, being that the "white horse" of chapter 6 represents something righteous and good, whatever it may be.

    If it were the Gospel, that would mean that the first seal was already opened. Why would the Lord show John something that had already happened by the time he saw the visions of Revelation?
    You should read chapter 12. The first chunk is a prophecy about events that had already happened.

    Why can't it be the Antichrist? Why does this offend your eschatological views?
    I didn't say it "offends" me. Please don't make assumptions about my attitude. I never said or suggested that it "offended" me. All I said was that, in the scope of the entire book of Revelation and John's consistent use of "white" as a symbol for righteousness only (and not evil pretenders) and his consistent descriptions of evil as evil (and never describing them as what they will pretend to be), it simply doesn't fit.

    In the KJV the Rev 4 creatures are called beasts.
    In the Greek, a completely different word is used for the "four living creatures" than the word used for the evil beasts.

    The word used for the four beings is the Greek word zoon. The word is rooted in the Greek word zao, which means "living" or "breathing." This word is only used in the Revelation to refer to the four beings who surround God's throne, and never the evil beasts.

    The word used for the evil beasts is the Greek word therion. It comes from the Greek word thera, literally meaning "a wild animal" or denoting something ferocious and wild.

    So the best translation for the four beings is "the four living creatures" or something similar, while the evil ones are directly called "beasts."

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,052
    Blog Entries
    1

    Further proof that Horse # 1 is evil

    These four horses in chapter 6 work together for the kingdom of Satan. The key is understanding that these "four" are the same as the four beasts. These four are seen rising up together upon the earth in Rev 13. These are the same four in Dan. 7.

    Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

    Now we know in Rev 13 and Dan 7 that all four are together and that they are in one accord with thier purpose. Likewise these four horses are the same. Again it does not make sense for another group of four to be a combination good/evil. A closer look into the following phrase will shed light onto thier prupose as we see each wil rule over 1/4 of the land at the time when this kingdom is upon the earth.

    Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    So the first horse has power over 1/4 the second 1/4 the third 1/4 and the fourth 1/4.

    1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 + 1/4 = 1


    Da 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.



    Mark

  6. #51
    The four kings that arise out of the earth in Dan. 7:17 are not working together but are four kingdoms that in succession one after the other. The Medio-Persian kingdom destroyed the Babylonian kingdom as did the Grecian kingdom replace the Medio-Persian and so on. The reason the beast in Rev. 13 had all the characteristics of these four kingdoms is because it was the culmination of these earthly kngdoms.

    The number 4 in scripture is symbolic of time or the completion of a cycle. The sun and the moon were created on the fourth day and they were given for times and seasons. The fourth commandment had to do with the Sabbath day which was the end of the week. There are four watches in the night. There are 4 seasons. When winter is over, spring comes and we start the cycle all over again. There are 4 phases of the moon. This is why there are 4 living creatures (or beasts) in Rev. 4 and also why there are 4 horses. Notice that one of the four creatures introduces the opening of the 1st 4 seals. The lion- the white horse, the calf- the red horse, the man- the black horse, and the eagle- the pale horse. There is a reason for this. The lion introduces the opening of the 1st seal. Jesus is called the lion of the tribe of Judah in Rev. 5. As has been said more than once, the color white in Revelation is exclusively used to picture Jesus Christ (or righteousness).

    The calf introduces the next horse which is called "another horse". The color red symbolizes man or the spirit of man. The name Adam means "red earth". This is the beginning of the decline or falling away of the church from the truth that it was established on by Jesus Christ himself. The reason that it is a calf that introduces this seal is because a calf is a picture of sacrifice. It was during this time period that the Apostles began to be put to death and the saints began to be persecuted.

    The man introduces the next horse and the picture of this horse is black. The color black is used to picture darkness that had began to set in the church. The pair of balances in the hand of the rider with a measure of wheat for a penny and three measures of barley for a penny pictured the measure of truth compared to the measure of false doctrine that was present in this time period. Barley is a substitute for wheat. As the spirit of man began to be more prevalent than the Spirit of God, then men began to bring in damnable heresies and pervert the truth of the Word of God. Even though this was taking place, God still watched over the church because He said "see that you hurt not the oil or the wine". The oil representing understanding and the wine representing the Spirit.

    The next beast that introduces the 4th seal is the eagle and the color of this horse is pale which represents death. In fact, the rider of this horse is called death and hell followed after it. This time period coincides with Rev. 12 where it said that unto the woman (the church) were given two wings of a great eagle, where she might fly into the wilderness where she had a place prepared for her that they might feed her for 1,260 days which is the 1,260 years of the dark ages( a day for a year).

    When we get to the fifth seal, we are not talking about horses anymore and the four living creatures have stopped introducing the seals. Ever wonder why? Because the cycle is complete. The church has fallen to it's lowest point and now it is beginning to rise up again or be restored. This is why in Rev. chapters 2 & 3, when we look at the seven churches of Asia and we get to the fourth church, which is Thyatira, where Jezebel (the Harlot) sits as a prophetess and causes God's servants to commit fornication (spiritually speaking), the order of the phrases "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church" and "To him that overcometh" change in order and remain that way until the 7th church.

    The four horses are not something that is coming out here in the future, but are representing the falling away of the one true church which was the white horse.

    Goph

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    the great southwest
    Posts
    61
    Can't say as I have anything more to add that might clarify the identity of the first rider. I did arrive at this discussion with the opinion (but not certainty) that this rider is the AC, and felt the color of the horse only represented the purpose of the rider (in this case to deceive men of his righteousness). I just want to let folks know that I now feel more certain he is the AC, thanks to the evidence and reasoning cited.

    One thing I always felt sure of though (before and after this thread)... the description given of the first rider feels almost casual, certainly not worthy of any description of our Lord that I've read anywhere else. And certainly unlike John would describe Him.... where's the excitement, love, and great respect John always shows? Maybe it's just my imagination, but I usually feel the connection.

    Anyways, just want to thank everyone who's contributed thus far. Good thread

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    south of the northern boarder
    Posts
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    The sentence was suppose to say that we are to judge the horsemen as symbols, meaning in order to determine what they meant, we have to disect their meaning by disecting the symbols that are a part of them.



    Have you read any of the OT? The Bow is symbolized in many passages along the Old Testament. The Meaning of the bow was the same as the meaning of the horn, and you can go to any dictionary or encyclopedia to read that for yourself. I do not have to find definitions of symbols in the Bible in order to recognize that those symbols are indeed symbols.

    This question makes absolutely no sense to me. Is the bow not a symbol because the Bible does not define it as so, even though it uses the Bow as a symbol more than any other book that we have today?




    joyful.....
    If you do not understand the content, please feel free to ask me or look up the meaning of what I write to you using either a dictionary, an encyclopedia, or any other reference book that may aid you in understanding what I am saying.

    I'll say it again. Notice that in the entire book of Revelation, Jesus is not described with horns. Notice also that the white horse and rider do not have horns. However, the Beast, who you call the Antichrist, when described, have horns. The dragon has horns. Even the false prophet is described with horns on it's head. The horns in all of these cases represent strength, but it is used to describe evil strength. This is why every comic book writer, when drawing a devil, always have horns on their heads. This is also why Hellboy, who was born a demon, has his horn broken, symbolizing that the evil that was his is broken from him, and his evil power is gone. Again, the horn itself is a symbol, like the bow, and in Revelation, both are used. One to describe the strength of something Holy, (bow), and the other to describe the strength of something evil, (horn).

    My point? Whether or not a bow is used to shoot arrows does not play any role in determining whether the bow written in Revelation 6 is literal or symbolic. Therefore, one can not determine that the white horse is the Antichrist because he has a weapon. Remember, Jesus has a two-edged sword in His mouth when He returns. Does that make Him evil?




    You seem to think that because the rider of the white horse has a weapon, it automatically causes him to be something evil, which is completely incorrect. A bow shoots arrows, but that has nothing to do with why the bow was written there, or whether it can be used to determine whether this symbol is that of the Gospel, or that of the AntiChrist. The proper use of a symbolic word will convey the true meaning of a passage, and thus is the reason why I told you what the bow symbolized in antiquity.




    Again, this shows a misunderstanding of what the passage is and what it means by you. Where is Jesus when this seal is broken? IN heaven. Where was the horse? In heaven. There was no mentioning of it being anywhere else but in the place where Lord Jesus opened the first seal. This, again, is a symbol, with no literal meaning to it other than what the horse represents. I assumed nothing. It is my opinion that you injected something that clearly is not there. Like I have stated, Jesus, the scroll, and all of the seals were in heaven, where the horse popped out of. The scenery did not change simply because the seal had been broken.

    NOw understand this. The horses, the horsemen, and all of the seaqls of Revelation 6-7 are all symbols of what God is doing to bring about the end. It is appropriate for me to say that the first horseman is indeed representative of the overwhelming power, authority and might of the Gospel. The Gospel was not "unleashed" when the Lord opened the first seal. The only thing revealed by the opening of the first seal is that the Lord wanted all of us to know that before anything else can happen, the Gospel must be spread, and thus the rider of the white horse. The White horse represents the power and the spreading of the Gospel to all mankind, destroying Satanic strongholds and gaining strength by the minute. It represent's God's unyielding determination to gain as many of us humans into His kingdom as are willing, and thus sent the Gospel forth, conquering and bent on conquest.

    Whether or not the unleashing of the Gospel happened before John wrote this book or not, the point of the white horse was easily received back then. Before any of the other seals are broken, before any of the other signs of the end were to happen, the church must conquer and be bent on conquest. The church wasn't born when the seal was broken, the church's purpose was exalted before the Lord then, when the seal was broken.



    So you are continuing to say that the Beast was admitted into heaven? By Lord Jesus? Are you sure you want to say that?




    Acts 1:8. You might want to read it.



    Well, the Lord was described three times in Revelation. In all three of them, He was described with the color white. Hair white as snow, riding on a white horse, just to name a couple. In any of these cases, was Jesus viewed in any other light other than holy? In Revelation 15, those beheaded were given white robes. Where they agents of deception? Great White Throne of Judgment in Revelation 20, was that viewed as being Satan's throne room? Consistency is the key to understanding the symbolic definition of the colors in Revelation. John consistantly described holy people and righteous people as beingt people clothed in white. Jesus has a white horse. Is suddenly an agent of deception given the color white, when in every other mentioning of him, the color was not used? (Revelation chapters 13, 16, 17, & 19).



    What does Matthew 28:19-20 say?





    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Revelation 13:2

    Are you sure God gave the beast that authority and crown? Looks to me asa though Satan did it, and therefore, since at the point of the Beast's advent, Satan was cast out of heaven, the beast had gained no authority or crown from heaven. Again, this is one of the VAST diffferences that I was talking about earlier.



    Actually, there is no contradiction in any of the statements that I have given to you. I asked questions for a reason, and that reason is to have you, the one I am questioning, read the book of Revelation and foind that answer.

    Joyful, it appears to me that you want ot change my mind concerning the White horse, based on what someone else told you. I mean, you say that God gave the Beast a crown when Revelation 13:2 clearly says that Satan did? I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that you have not read Revelation for yourself yet, and with that in mind, I humbly ask you to take the time to read this delightful book. I am not trying to be combative, or antagonistic. I am only saying that in order for you to debate this issue, you have to have read the book, and the answer you have given me tells me that you have not. So please, do read Revelation.
    Thanks, this was insightful.

    I wasn't seeking to change your mind, only to present my rendered interpretation of the text. Someone asked what the white horse meant and I think it fair for all to present to those who may not know the main views of interpretation and some helpful insights (which I believe has been done).

    Blessings,

    Joyful
    Last edited by Joyfulparousia; Sep 11th 2008 at 01:19 PM.
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    south of the northern boarder
    Posts
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    In the Greek, a completely different word is used for the "four living creatures" than the word used for the evil beasts.

    The word used for the four beings is the Greek word zoon. The word is rooted in the Greek word zao, which means "living" or "breathing." This word is only used in the Revelation to refer to the four beings who surround God's throne, and never the evil beasts.

    The word used for the evil beasts is the Greek word therion. It comes from the Greek word thera, literally meaning "a wild animal" or denoting something ferocious and wild.

    So the best translation for the four beings is "the four living creatures" or something similar, while the evil ones are directly called "beasts."
    I knew you'd catch that one
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,052
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by gophgetter View Post
    The four kings that arise out of the earth in Dan. 7:17 are not working together but are four kingdoms that in succession one after the other.
    It does not say they are in succession rather it implies the opposite. Your thinking is dereived from the notion that these four are the same four kingdoms noted in chapter 2. This is a most common error. Actually these four beasts are a description of the four which come out of the third kingdom in chapter 2.

    Da 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

    The Medio-Persian kingdom destroyed the Babylonian kingdom as did the Grecian kingdom replace the Medio-Persian and so on. The reason the beast in Rev. 13 had all the characteristics of these four kingdoms is because it was the culmination of these earthly kngdoms.
    So what kingdom are we living? We have yet seen this fourth beast thus this would mean we are still in the third kingdom of Grecia.........

    Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    What I am saying is that we have yet seen the third kingdom broken into four parts in which all these beasts arise together however the fourth beast in time overcomes the others and becomes the fourth kingdom.

    1 Babylon
    2 Media Persia
    3 Grecia

    4 Lion
    Bear
    Leopard
    Beast


    This is why there are 4 living creatures (or beasts) in Rev. 4
    Yes. They are all seen together and not one after another. As in God's kingdom there are four beasts likewise so will Satan's kingdom.

    Notice that one of the four creatures introduces the opening of the 1st 4 seals.
    Exactly my point. The four beasts around the throne which are all good are introducing another four beasts which of course are not them but another. These beasts are all evil.

    The first four seals is the kingdom of Satan taking hold on the earth. The first seal we see that he will promote the gospel and claim the fulfillment thereof. The second we see those on earth delivering those to death which choose not to serve and receive the mark. The third we see the power and control and riches which is for those whom receive him. This will be at no cost for them ie penny and thus they will worship him as seen in the instruments of the oil and wine. The fourth is this king seeking all those which are opposed to him and do not receive his mark.

    If you look at he above this is pretty much what happens when Christ also appears on the earth.


    When we get to the fifth seal, we are not talking about horses anymore and the four living creatures have stopped introducing the seals. Ever wonder why? Because the cycle is complete. The church has fallen to it's lowest point and now it is beginning to rise up again or be restored. This is why in Rev. chapters 2 & 3, when we look at the seven churches of Asia and we get to the fourth church, which is Thyatira, where Jezebel (the Harlot) sits as a prophetess and causes God's servants to commit fornication (spiritually speaking), the order of the phrases "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church" and "To him that overcometh" change in order and remain that way until the 7th church.
    The 5th seal represents the reign of the little horn and as he goes to destroy those against him.

    The four horses are not something that is coming out here in the future, but are representing the falling away of the one true church which was the white horse.
    Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    No. We have not yet seen this rider........


    Mark

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    south of the northern boarder
    Posts
    188
    Quote Originally Posted by gophgetter View Post
    The four kings that arise out of the earth in Dan. 7:17 are not working together but are four kingdoms that in succession one after the other. The Medio-Persian kingdom destroyed the Babylonian kingdom as did the Grecian kingdom replace the Medio-Persian and so on. The reason the beast in Rev. 13 had all the characteristics of these four kingdoms is because it was the culmination of these earthly kngdoms.

    The number 4 in scripture is symbolic of time or the completion of a cycle. The sun and the moon were created on the fourth day and they were given for times and seasons. The fourth commandment had to do with the Sabbath day which was the end of the week. There are four watches in the night. There are 4 seasons. When winter is over, spring comes and we start the cycle all over again. There are 4 phases of the moon. This is why there are 4 living creatures (or beasts) in Rev. 4 and also why there are 4 horses. Notice that one of the four creatures introduces the opening of the 1st 4 seals. The lion- the white horse, the calf- the red horse, the man- the black horse, and the eagle- the pale horse. There is a reason for this. The lion introduces the opening of the 1st seal. Jesus is called the lion of the tribe of Judah in Rev. 5. As has been said more than once, the color white in Revelation is exclusively used to picture Jesus Christ (or righteousness).

    The calf introduces the next horse which is called "another horse". The color red symbolizes man or the spirit of man. The name Adam means "red earth". This is the beginning of the decline or falling away of the church from the truth that it was established on by Jesus Christ himself. The reason that it is a calf that introduces this seal is because a calf is a picture of sacrifice. It was during this time period that the Apostles began to be put to death and the saints began to be persecuted.

    The man introduces the next horse and the picture of this horse is black. The color black is used to picture darkness that had began to set in the church. The pair of balances in the hand of the rider with a measure of wheat for a penny and three measures of barley for a penny pictured the measure of truth compared to the measure of false doctrine that was present in this time period. Barley is a substitute for wheat. As the spirit of man began to be more prevalent than the Spirit of God, then men began to bring in damnable heresies and pervert the truth of the Word of God. Even though this was taking place, God still watched over the church because He said "see that you hurt not the oil or the wine". The oil representing understanding and the wine representing the Spirit.

    The next beast that introduces the 4th seal is the eagle and the color of this horse is pale which represents death. In fact, the rider of this horse is called death and hell followed after it. This time period coincides with Rev. 12 where it said that unto the woman (the church) were given two wings of a great eagle, where she might fly into the wilderness where she had a place prepared for her that they might feed her for 1,260 days which is the 1,260 years of the dark ages( a day for a year).

    When we get to the fifth seal, we are not talking about horses anymore and the four living creatures have stopped introducing the seals. Ever wonder why? Because the cycle is complete. The church has fallen to it's lowest point and now it is beginning to rise up again or be restored. This is why in Rev. chapters 2 & 3, when we look at the seven churches of Asia and we get to the fourth church, which is Thyatira, where Jezebel (the Harlot) sits as a prophetess and causes God's servants to commit fornication (spiritually speaking), the order of the phrases "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church" and "To him that overcometh" change in order and remain that way until the 7th church.

    The four horses are not something that is coming out here in the future, but are representing the falling away of the one true church which was the white horse.

    Goph
    I can't see anything that really links the 4 beasts and the 4 horses together except some general application. Things like: "they're bad", or "there are 4".
    From Azubah to Hephzibah.

  12. #57
    Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

    6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

    6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    It does not say they are in succession rather it implies the opposite. Your thinking is dereived from the notion that these four are the same four kingdoms noted in chapter 2. This is a most common error. Actually these four beasts are a description of the four which come out of the third kingdom in chapter 2.

    Da 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.



    So what kingdom are we living? We have yet seen this fourth beast thus this would mean we are still in the third kingdom of Grecia.........

    Da 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    What I am saying is that we have yet seen the third kingdom broken into four parts in which all these beasts arise together however the fourth beast in time overcomes the others and becomes the fourth kingdom.

    1 Babylon
    2 Media Persia
    3 Grecia

    4 Lion
    Bear
    Leopard
    Beast




    Yes. They are all seen together and not one after another. As in God's kingdom there are four beasts likewise so will Satan's kingdom.



    Exactly my point. The four beasts around the throne which are all good are introducing another four beasts which of course are not them but another. These beasts are all evil.

    The first four seals is the kingdom of Satan taking hold on the earth. The first seal we see that he will promote the gospel and claim the fulfillment thereof. The second we see those on earth delivering those to death which choose not to serve and receive the mark. The third we see the power and control and riches which is for those whom receive him. This will be at no cost for them ie penny and thus they will worship him as seen in the instruments of the oil and wine. The fourth is this king seeking all those which are opposed to him and do not receive his mark.

    If you look at he above this is pretty much what happens when Christ also appears on the earth.




    The 5th seal represents the reign of the little horn and as he goes to destroy those against him.



    Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    No. We have not yet seen this rider........


    Mark
    The 4 beasts in Daniel 7 are the 4 kingdoms from Babylon to Rome. You jumped to the 8th chapter to try to support your interpretation when the answer is in the context of the same chapter.

    Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    You also said, forgive me, I do not know how to do multiquotes, that the four living creatures are good beasts that introduce evil beasts. This is not supported by the scriptures. John does not call the riders nor the horses that are introduced by the living creatures beasts. Let's keep everything in context, shall we.

    Peace, Goph

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    5,052
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by gophgetter View Post
    The 4 beasts in Daniel 7 are the 4 kingdoms from Babylon to Rome.
    First there is a reason why the fourth kingdom is unnamed.....it is never called Rome is it? This is yours and many other asumptions (though for a time I too believe it was Rome). The fourth kingdom is the kingdom of Satan upon the earth and it has no name.

    Second, who are these four which come out of the THIRD kingdom whereby a fierce king will stand but be destroy without hand?

    Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.


    You jumped to the 8th chapter to try to support your interpretation when the answer is in the context of the same chapter.
    I know you understand that as in Rev there is much overlaps in Daniel.


    that the four living creatures are good beasts that introduce evil beasts. This is not supported by the scriptures. John does not call the riders nor the horses that are introduced by the living creatures beasts. Let's keep everything in context, shall we.

    Peace, Goph
    Actually those riding the horses are the beasts. The four beasts are each riding a horse. In turn these four beasts are in reallity kings.

    Mark

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    iowa usa/ bredasdorp south africa
    Posts
    463
    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    First there is a reason why the fourth kingdom is unnamed.....it is never called Rome is it? This is yours and many other asumptions (though for a time I too believe it was Rome). The fourth kingdom is the kingdom of Satan upon the earth and it has no name.

    Second, who are these four which come out of the THIRD kingdom whereby a fierce king will stand but be destroy without hand?

    Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.




    I know you understand that as in Rev there is much overlaps in Daniel.




    Actually those riding the horses are the beasts. The four beasts are each riding a horse. In turn these four beasts are in reallity kings.

    Mark

    mark,

    you can not merge chapter 8 with chapter 7. it is two seperate and destint prophecys. if you merge them, change the order that dan 7 was given in, then every body can chop and change as they wish. God gave them in the order they are for a reason. If we can not Trust His authority to tell us in what order stuff goes, who on this rock that we call earth can we trust to tell us.
    Now i do believe that the horn power in daniel 8 is not antiochus epiphanes. I do believe that is Satan himself.

    bennie

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •