Page 1 of 28 123456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 413

Thread: True Israel or Natural Israel?

  1. #1

    True Israel or Natural Israel?

    Paul explains in Galatians 4:22-33: “it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.”

    Romans 8:1-9 highlights the futility and impotence of seeing any merit in “the flesh,” and contrasts it to the blessing and destiny of “the Spirit.” He compares this by picking out two of Abraham’s Hebrewic progeny. Paul, in this reading is basically comparing between the spiritual and the natural, the real and the unreal, freedom and bondage. The saved are seen to be “the children of promise” and are expressly “born of the Spirit” and therefore “free.” The unsaved are merely natural and carnal and are simply “born after the flesh.”

    Philippians 3:3 sums up what a true believer is, saying, they have no confidence in the flesh.” They have basically given up any hope of making heaven of their own volition, abilty, race or efforts. Their confidence is in God and His provision for lost sinners – the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Those that are merely born of natural Israeli pedigree hold no special favour with God. The only thing that brings that is the new birth. Those that rely upon anything other that the blood of Jesus are of their father the devil and under the wrath of God. Such people are not born of the Spirit are therefore outside of Christ, outside of the only vehicle God has ordained for salvation in this Gospel age – His body – the Church, and outside of hope. Jesus said in John 3:6-7 “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

    Paul continually differentiates between the Israelite according to “the flesh” and Israelite according to “the Spirit.” He frequently qualifies his use of the Israeli or Jewish label, showing that there is both a natural and a spiritual understanding in these designations. 1 Corinthians 10:18 says, Israel after the flesh.” In Romans 9:3 he describes the natural Jew as my kinsmen according to the flesh and in Romans 9:5 describes them as Israelites as concerning the flesh.” Romans 4:1 also declares: “What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?”

    God uses the terms “Israel,” “circumcision,” “Jew[s],” and “children of the Abraham” in both a natural and a spiritual sense in Scripture. When He uses them in a natural sense He is talking specifically about the natural Hebrewic descendants; when He uses them in a spiritual context He is referring exclusively of the elect of God – God’s true people, those that have entered into salvation by simple faith. The redeemed of God are all those that are found “in Christ” since the beginning of time. The lost are all those that are found “in Adam” from the beginning. The elect have two natures – being born from above, the wicked have only one – their old Adamic nature. Scripture makes clear, natural birthright means nothing in salvation. It is rather a broken and a contrite heart.

    Men today from all nations are either viewed as walking “after the Spirit” or “after the flesh,” or, after their natural state or have risen above that to walk after God in newness of life.

    Paul makes it clear in his writings that there is another Israel apart from Israel after the flesh.Paul especially develops this thought in Romans 9:6-8, which says, confirms this, saying, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham (through the flesh), are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Here we see two Israels in view – one according to the flesh and one according to the Spirit. These are significantly identified in Romans 9:8 as “the children of God” or “the children of the promise.” The chosen seed obviously does not include all natural Israelis – as most, even in the Old Testament, seemed to rebel against God’s holy demands. Moreover, one could never call such “the children of the promise” unless they were of the family of faith.

    True Israel was never simply the natural descendents of Abraham but the spriritual ones. Even after Jacob changed his name, there were always two Israels – one natural one redeemed. Whilst the redeemed group consisted of mainly natural Israelites in the old economy, natural Israeli pedigree was never the grounds for belonging to this favoured group – faith was. When Christ came and widened out the Gospel opportunity to all nations He removed the natural ethnic bias of the Gospel that strongly inclined towards natural Israelites and drew countless millions of Gentiles into that special chosen company.

    Clearly, when Scripture indicates that salvation is found “in Isaac” (Romans 9:7) it has nothing to do with physical descent. If it did, then the promise would be restricted to Hebrews stock alone – namely all of the blood-descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There would be absolutely no hope for the Gentile. Of course that is not what Scripture is saying or what salvation is. Paul makes this clear when introducing this truth in Romans 9:6, saying, “for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children.” What he is demonstrating is that salvation is not through the flesh. Romans 9:8 confirms this, indicating, “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

    Some are constantly preoccupied with fleshly Israel that is outside of Christ, instead of spiritual Israel that is the true covenant seed of Abraham. They are always lauding the flesh, when God only works through a spiritual people. They elevate Israel as if physical circumcision carries some special preference. Jewish birthright commands no special favour from God when it comes to salvation. The only thing that carries merit with God is a penitent heart towards Christ. Sadly, the overwhelmingly majority of modern-day Israelis heart is hardened towards God – and His only provision for sin – the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage confirms that Christ-rejecting Israelis – “they which are the children of the flesh” – “are not the children of God.” Nothing could be clearer.
    Last edited by the rookie; Sep 12th 2008 at 05:20 AM. Reason: inappropriate name for dispensationalists
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    storydweller
    Posts
    3,233
    Quote Originally Posted by wpm View Post
    Those that are merely born of natural Israeli pedigree hold no special favour with God. The only thing that brings that is the new birth. ... [Some Christians] elevate Israel as if physical circumcision carries some special preference. Jewish birthright commands no special favour from God when it comes to salvation. The only thing that carries merit with God is a penitent heart towards Christ.
    Up until Nimrod's tower, all the people of the earth were one family. Eber the Sethite lived during this time, and "Eber" is where the term "Hebrew" comes from. Eber begot Peleg, who lived when the earth was divided by the confusion of the one language into many. From this, the people were spread out, and the one family made into many families.

    The promised seed prophesied of in Gen. 3:15 had to come through one family, and God called Abram out from among his fellow Gentiles, promising him that if he would 1) go to the land that was already prepared for him (where Eden once was), and 2) be a blessing to others, then God would bless Abram and his descendants (the concern was specifically for a king); those who then blessed this Hebrew would in turn be blessed by God with the same blessing as He blessed Abram with.

    After 1) going to the land, and 2) being a blessing to others (Lot and the kings), Melchizedek, the king of the future city of David and priest of the Most High God, "Possessor of heaven and earth", comes and blesses Abram as a faithful representative of God (not as a Christophany). It is then in that place that God makes covenant with Abram because of his faith, causing Abram to be unable to pass in between the sacrificed pieces, and God alone passes through, signifying that this covenant will remain forever, as it was not based on Abram's (or his seeds') faithfulness, but God's alone (cp. Gen. 50:24-26; Deut. 4:25-31; 1 Ch. 16:15-18; Luke 1:68-75; Acts 3:19-26; Heb. 6:13-18).

    Later, after the covenant is ratified so that nothing to it can be added, God tells Abraham that the sign of this everlasting covenant is the circumcision of his and his seeds' flesh. Those who were not circumcised were not a part of this one family through whom would come the promised Seed. Circumcision was not about salvation, for all who blessed Abraham would receive the same blessing as God gave Abraham, and circumcision came after faith, however, it was about being in that family and inheriting the physical land promised him (ownership of the land was and is still unconditional, but possession of the land has always been conditional).

    Now that Christ has come, who was circumcised according to the covenant, and has sprinkled our hearts after His death and resurrection at His ascension, ratifying the renewed covenant with natural Israel, the witness family is no longer known by circumcision of the flesh, but by the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13; 4:30). Note though that the story is still focused on Jews (a word which comes from exiled Judah), and that the door to salvation has not yet been understood to have been opened to the Gentiles. The question is not "How do Jews fit in?", but "How do Gentiles fit in?"

    Salvation, or justification, has always been by grace through faith, and now by the inter-indwelling Holy Spirit, we can say that circumcision and uncircumcision are nothing when concerning that person's salvation, but only the Spirit. Circumcision is by the taking off of the old creation, and the Spirit within cries, "Abba, Father."

    So has God cast off His people Israel? No, of course not, and that's not what you're saying - but are they still called in a distinct way that Gentiles are not? Well, to them alone was promised unconditionally forever a faithful remnant (Gen. 17:7; Deut. 29:10-15; 30:5); never does God promise this to Gentiles. What is the importance of this nation, that they not only remain, but remain distinct and separate throughout all generations?

    Paul tells us that by their fall, the way was made for the Gentiles to be grafted in among them (it's their tree, their root, their fatness, their forefathers' promises); how much better then will it be at their acceptance and fullness?! Life from the dead for all creation! Why them specifically and not any other nation/family? It's because they are beloved for the sake of the patriarchs!

    God made unconditional everlasting promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and to their natural descendants - they will never cease to be a people, a promise that must continue up until the Great White Throne Judgment. Their ethnic distinction is not important for their salvation, but for their preservation, unto the salvation of all other nations through their witness (Eze. 36:23)!

    So is Israel any better than Gentiles? No, and neither are Gentiles better than Israel. Israel is the hardest nation to save, not the easiest; they alone as a corporate people have a veil over their hearts. God chose Israel for that very purpose: to prove His faithfulness, not theirs. And by that all nations are saved: not for the sake of Israel's faithfulness, but for the sake of God's faithfulness despite their faithlessness.

    So do not seek to lower your brethrens' vision of the people of God, nor to hinder them from provoking Israel to jealousy, the very means of which they must be saved. If God is unfaithful to Israel, then what hope have we, for we are in their covenantal promises. Judging by Rom. 9:3, our view of them is not high enough...

    - Lk.11
    Last edited by Nihil Obstat; Sep 12th 2008 at 01:49 PM. Reason: added to quote box
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    storydweller
    Posts
    3,233
    The old, or rather, the "first" covenant (Heb. 8:13), is made obsolete by the new, or more precisely, the renewed covenant with natural Israel. But the old covenant is not the Abrahamic covenant (Gen. 12:1-3; etc.), nor the Land covenant (Deut. 30:1-10), nor the Davidic covenant (2 Sam. 7:12-16), but is the Mosaic covenant, or better known as the Law (Ex. 20; etc.). Only the Mosaic covenant is done away with in the new, and this is because Jesus, a Man born under the law, fulfilled the law, that those under the law would be redeemed from the curse of the law. The law was added to make dormant sin manifest in men, that they would see their inability to walk in covenantal obedience.

    The law could not save a man, but could only condemn a man. Those who longed to have a right relationship with God and man loved the law for revealing the hidden sin in them (Ps. 119), and the law provided a means for their atonement. This atonement truly washed them of their sins (read carefully and understand Heb. 8:4 and 9:13), but these sacrifices could never take away from them their propensity to sin (Heb. 10:4); to make them perfect (Heb. 10:1). Perfection - becoming a new creation - can only come by fulfilling the law, something only the last Adam was able to do, for He was from heaven. Those in Him by the blood of the renewed covenant are born again, a new creation, from a heavenly city. The Mosaic covenant is now obsolete; it is the law written on our hearts which we are now to continually fulfill, and are enabled to by the inter-indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    When we say that Jesus fulfilled the law, we mean that the transaction has been made complete between God and man; there is no longer a need to make exchange, for it has already been made. To desire to attempt to fulfill the law will often, but not always (as I'll get to soon), reveal a person's refusal or ignorance of the fact that Jesus fulfilled it. It could be somewhat likened to going to buy a car from a dealer for a $1000; once the transaction has been made, it makes no sense for another to feel burdened to pay the $1000 - it's been made complete! In this way, the old covenant has been fulfilled by Jesus. At His ascension, He ratified a renewed covenant with His family according to the flesh (Jer. 31:31), and we Gentiles who share Abraham's faith are grafted in among Abraham's natural descendants. They are still His chosen people.

    The natural branches cut off in Rom. 11 then are those who do not embrace the renewed covenant God made with them after the old was finished. The wild branches grafted in are Gentiles, Gentiles who partake of the Jews' forefather's promises. Because the law has been made obsolete, these Gentiles do not need to observe the law. Neither do the Jews who remain of the cultivated olive tree, and yet we see in Acts that Paul acknowledged and observed feast days (Acts 20:16; etc.), made Nazirite vows according to the law (which involved sacrifices; Acts 18:18; 21:17-26), and even circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:1-5). Why did he do this, all after the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), knowing even that Galatians was written before the council in Jerusalem?

    I think the answer is that Paul the Jew was simply that: a Jew. He maintained his ethnicity, not for the sake of salvation, but that by his Jewishness, all would be provoked to holiness. To "keep the law" (Acts 21:24) for him was simply a matter of keeping his ethnicity, and not of meriting or guarding his adoption into the family of God. His ethnicity was important to him, and he expressed his ethnic distinctions for a purpose greater than his own, as I put forth in my previous post (found in bold).

    What gets tricky, then, is when we remember that Jesus Himself was an ethnic Jew (Rom. 1:3; 9:5), is still a Jewish Man in a resurrected body, and will return again as a Jew. There are many Scriptures that speak of the Hebraic expressions to His future, earthly kingdom (for whether you believe in a future millennium or not, heaven is coming to earth). Jesus is a Jew, now and forever. Salvation - the renewed covenant - is of the Jews (John 4:22). The feast days are the Lord's feast days, the throne of David is the Lord's throne, and the temple was a shadow of the Lord's temple seen in heaven; the law brings us to Christ, sacrifices pointed to Christ, and all their covenants are fully realized in Christ.

    We must come back to our Jewish roots, for it is only in that place that we can partake of the fatness of the cultivated olive tree both without hindrance and far removed from the danger of boasting against the natural branches who were cut off, which can only result in ourselves being cut off.

    - Lk.11
    Last edited by quiet dove; Sep 12th 2008 at 09:42 PM. Reason: salvation line
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  4. #4
    i pet 2:9 but you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to god, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
    .
    .
    .
    Last edited by quiet dove; Sep 12th 2008 at 09:43 PM. Reason: quoted material

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    When we say that Jesus fulfilled the law, we mean that the transaction has been made complete between God and man; there is no longer a need to make exchange, for it has already been made. To desire to attempt to fulfill the law will often, but not always (as I'll get to soon), reveal a person's refusal or ignorance of the fact that Jesus fulfilled it. It could be somewhat likened to going to buy a car from a dealer for a $1000; once the transaction has been made, it makes no sense for another to feel burdened to pay the $1000 - it's been made complete! In this way, the old covenant has been fulfilled by Jesus. At His ascension, He ratified a renewed covenant with His family according to the flesh (Jer. 31:31), and we Gentiles who share Abraham's faith are grafted in among Abraham's natural descendants. They are still His chosen people,.
    Those that reject Christ are not His chosen people, only those that are saved. The rest, like all unsaved, are of their father the devil.

    Jesus said to the Christ-rejecting Jews, in John 8:42-47, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
    Last edited by quiet dove; Sep 12th 2008 at 09:43 PM. Reason: quoted material
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    storydweller
    Posts
    3,233

    allow an explanation...

    My point is that the renewed covenant was made to natural Israel, who were again chosen, that through them all might be blessed. We Gentiles are grafted into their tree, and partake of their root and their fatness. To say this, one must necessarily acknowledge that the Jews are again the chosen family, that all the other families of the earth (Gentiles) might receive the same blessings. There is an unconditional promise that natural Israel would always have a faithful remnant, that should any Gentiles have faith in the God of Abraham, these Gentiles might be grafted in among them. The Jews are chosen for our benefit, and the benefit of all creation. Yes, some of them deny Jesus and the renewed covenant, but they as a family are still chosen, for salvation is of the Jews.

    By my statement in bold, this is exactly what I mean. If the Jews are not God's chosen family, then by your own logic you must deny that the renewed covenant was made to them (Jer. 31:31), that you are brought into their promises (Rom. 11:17), that God would keep His unconditional promise to them (Heb. 6:13-18), and so in effect deny the new covenant is also for you, deny its promises are also for you, and deny any reliability in God's faithfulness to you. One cannot have salvation or God's eternal blessings apart from the fact that natural Israel is His chosen family, whom He made the new covenant with, by which we freely receive the Holy Spirit; hence, we need to acknowledge this fact. It's their family we're grafted into, for theirs is, not was, the adoption.

    Not to say that if you believe that Israel is no longer specifically chosen you have in effect lost your salvation, but that your argument is self-defeating, for when carried to it's natural conclusion, it denies your own salvation. How else are we to understand Rom. 11's olive trees? Whose tree are we grafted into? The Jews' tree. That we might share in whose blessings? The Jews' blessings. How can you say they are no longer chosen, when it's their tree and their blessings, without laying the ax to your own branch?

    - Lk.11
    Last edited by Nihil Obstat; Sep 13th 2008 at 05:04 AM. Reason: corrected and clarified a sentence
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  7. #7
    Col 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience
    Whether the Jews were once chosen and now they're not, or if they never were and it's always been God's faithful who are chosen....

    However you arrive at it, the New Testament says on multiple occasion that Christians are God's chosen people.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    storydweller
    Posts
    3,233
    Yes, and you're proving my point. We're only chosen - chosen to be God's representatives - because we are grafted in among Israel, who are God's chosen ethnic family and who God renewed His covenant with (Jer. 31:31). If Israel were no longer "His people" (Rom. 11:1), then we cannot receive salvation, for salvation is of the Jews, nor should we expect to receive it from this God who was "unfaithful" to His unconditional promise made to Abraham.

    When we have saving faith in Christ, He sprinkles our hearts with His blood, binding us to the renewed covenant, and we receive His Holy Spirit, which is the sign that we are in this covenant with God (Eph. 1:13). This new covenant was made with the Jews (Jer. 31:31), and we are grafted in among the Jews (Rom. 11:17), for it is their covenant, and not ours. It becomes ours by faith and Jesus' blood (Eph. 2:13), but it could never become our covenant if it wasn't first the Jews' covenant. God made an unconditional covenant with Abraham's natural, not spiritual, descendants, that there would in every generation be a faithful remnant of Israelites (Gen. 12:1-3; etc.), the purpose being this: God blesses Abraham's descendants, who are commanded to be a blessing to others; those who bless them in return will receive the exact same blessing from God that He gives Abraham's descendants. It is in this way that salvation is of the Jews. This is also why I say that to claim that God's chosen family is no longer Israel, will when carried to it's logical conclusion deny you your own salvation. Logically, this argument is self-defeating.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  9. #9
    Emanate Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by IPet2_9 View Post
    Whether the Jews were once chosen and now they're not, or if they never were and it's always been God's faithful who are chosen....

    However you arrive at it, the New Testament says on multiple occasion that Christians are God's chosen people.

    can you name a place that says "Christians" are god's chosen people?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    storydweller
    Posts
    3,233
    His screen name, 1 Pet. 2:9, and the quote he shared, Col. 3:12, are two examples of Gentiles being referred to as God's chosen, or elect, people. (By "Christian" he undoubtedly meant it as it is used today, pertaining almost strictly to Gentiles in Christ, though in Acts 11:26 at its inception it was almost strictly used for the Hellenist, or Greek speaking, Jews in Christ; see v.20.)
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  11. #11
    Col 3:11-12 isn't referring to Gentile Christians--it very specifically refers to just "Christians". 'There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ...therefore as God's chosen people...'. As far as I'm concerned, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians don't exist. No such thing.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    storydweller
    Posts
    3,233
    Quote Originally Posted by IPet2_9 View Post
    Col 3:11-12 isn't referring to Gentile Christians--it very specifically refers to just "Christians". 'There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ...therefore as God's chosen people...'. As far as I'm concerned, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians don't exist. No such thing.
    Are there then such things as male Christians and female Christians... (Gal. 3:28)?
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  13. #13
    Are there then such things as male Christians and female Christians... (Gal. 3:28)?
    In Christ, no. Male or female has nothing to do with your salvation.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Emanate View Post
    can you name a place that says "Christians" are god's chosen people?
    1 Peter 2:9-10 declares, "ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

    Jesus explicitly states in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.”

    Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved … In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”

    II Thessalonians 2:13-14 says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    Titus 1:1-2 says, “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.”

    2 Timothy 1:9 says that God Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”

    Jesus said in John 15:26-27, “when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”

    Romans 9:10-21 says, “when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the *****ure saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

    And continues, “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.”
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Yes, and you're proving my point. We're only chosen - chosen to be God's representatives - because we are grafted in among Israel, who are God's chosen ethnic family and who God renewed His covenant with (Jer. 31:31). If Israel were no longer "His people" (Rom. 11:1), then we cannot receive salvation, for salvation is of the Jews, nor should we expect to receive it from this God who was "unfaithful" to His unconditional promise made to Abraham.
    Salvation is a Christ-thing. We cannot attribute this exalted blessing to an ethnic race of largely Christ-rejecting Jews.

    With your argument, are you saying we are now ethnic Jews?
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. natural Israel
    By Nihil Obstat in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: Sep 23rd 2008, 04:37 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •