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Thread: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

  1. #31
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    For the benefit of everyone in this forum, I will only say but a few brief words.

    I believe that the Great Tribulation will happen within the next 25 years. (More accurately, within the next 10-20 years).

    I believe that the Lord will return in this generation's lifetime. (Although if what I have dreamed is true, it will not come during my lifetime, for I may end up with no head by the time it is all said and done).

    That said, I also believe that it is very possible that the Great Tribulation may not happen within this generation's lifetime. (This generation meaning the Gen X generation, from those born after 1960-onward).

    In short, Hope for the best, be prepared fro the worst. You can ot go wrong when you hold to this piece of advice.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe King View Post
    With the world financial markets in disarray, I'd say we are closer than we think. Last year, I thought we were 80-100 years away but the signs are more prevalent with each passing day.
    I wonder though if they were saying this same thing during the Great Depression? It wasn't just American's economy that suffered then either...other major world's stock markets were also badly affected and Hitler was forcing a mark on certain people...actually more things were in place then, then they are now! Check this out

    1929- 1941 Great depression..food shortages...extreme drought causing dust bowls. The depression had devastating effects both in the developed and developing world. International trade was deeply affected, as were personal incomes, tax revenues, prices, and profits. Cities all around the world were hit hard, especially those dependent on heavy industry. List of other nations affected:

    * 4.1 Australia
    * 4.2 Canada
    * 4.3 East Asia
    * 4.4 France
    * 4.5 Germany
    * 4.6 Latin America
    * 4.7 Netherlands
    * 4.8 South Africa
    * 4.9 Soviet Union
    * 4.10 United Kingdom

    1933-1945 Hitler

    1939-1945 world world 2 ...nearly every nation in the world was involved in this war. Probably why they called it WORLD war..
    The war involved the mobilization of over 100 million military personnel, making it the most widespread war in history....Over 70 million people, the majority of them civilians, were killed...

    Three years later in 1948 Israel becomes a nation...and the day after they did they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries..

    It would seems as if a Great Tribulation was certainly going on then Israel becoming a nation again...I would bet alot of Christians probably expected the return of Christ at that point in time...


    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  3. #33
    Just something I'd like to mention here,

    Even though many of us believe Christ's return is near...even should He tarry another 1000 years we all need to live in the expectation of the imminent return of Our Lord.

    I feel that if we all lived as if He were coming back in our lifetimes...there would be a lot less lukewarm churches, and a lot more work in the harvest He has set before us.

    JMO
    Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



    ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


    A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post
    Just something I'd like to mention here,

    Even though many of us believe Christ's return is near...even should He tarry another 1000 years we all need to live in the expectation of the imminent return of Our Lord.

    I feel that if we all lived as if He were coming back in our lifetimes...there would be a lot less lukewarm churches, and a lot more work in the harvest He has set before us.

    JMO
    I will certainly agree that we should all be prepared to meet the Lord at any moment, because our lives are but a puff of wind, but immanency is a myth that has no Scriptural foundation.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    I will certainly agree that we should all be prepared to meet the Lord at any moment, because our lives are but a puff of wind, but immanency is a myth that has no Scriptural foundation.
    I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

    Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing".

    Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent".
    Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



    ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


    A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post
    I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...
    They were obviously mistaken, weren't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post
    Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing".

    Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent".
    Jesus gave us a very specific list of signs of His return to watch for. After those signs are fulfilled, then the Rapture is imminent.

    Let's try this: Show me one Scripture that proves immanency.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

  7. #37
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    I think you have a very valid point Moonglow, but I believe you are pushing what the Lord has laid upon your heart unto others. I believe the uses each of us in a different capacity and there is a separate calling for each of us. Apparently, the Lord has laid upon you to not be concerned with the things that are happening or at least has given you a different perspective on them. That does not mean the what the Lord has laid upon someone else’s heart is wrong or unjustified. Maybe there callings to do just as they are doing and yours is to do just as you are doing.

    Do I believe that Chris will return fo his Church? Without a doubt. Is Christ's return, the End Of Days, or the 7 year Tribulation near? I have no clue, but I do believe that things are pointing in that direction. I also believe that things are getting worse and the times in the near future are going to get tough and people will suffer. There are some that say that things have been worse in the past and that the speed at which information travels is the reason it seems worse. I would have to disagree with that, I believe things are worse than they were 10, 25 or 50 years ago. We have just become desensitized to them and the news of 230,000 people being killed in a far off country, or a another homicide or the rape and murder of a child does not affect or comfort zone. So we just pass it off as nothing. You, yourself Moonglow brought up in another post about the ruler of Rome marring a slave boy, having his mother killed and then kicking his wife to death and said there was nothing in current times that would compare to that. Have you ever read or heard the stories of Sodom Hussein’s sons and the pain and death he inflicted? Check it out, it may surprise you. That is just the things you can find without digging very deep. Then you can move on down into the horn of Arica where the number that starve to death on a monthly basis number in the hundreds of thousands. Or one from the personal files, a young boy in Israel who picked up a gift from his front porch only to have it blow up in his face, nearly killing him. Why? Because he believes that Christ is the Son of God.

    Your argument has some merit, I won’t argue that point, as think there are some who truly believe they are in God’s will, but they are serving a different master. I also believe there are some that would have the focus taken off of our Lord and onto the times at hand, but if you are true to your faith and you are prepared for the return of the Son of Man, then I think these things cannot and will not distract you from God’s ultimate plan for your life.

    I say to everyone, PRAY FERVENTLY that God reveal Himself to you and that you live your life according to God’s will. If you do that and you are not afraid of where the Lord might lead you, then you have nothing o fear of the coming times.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post
    I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

    Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing".

    Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent".
    I don't think they did actually ..I think what they were expecting was judgment to come and it did. The verses on that get lumped together with the return of Christ and they are actually two seperate things at two seperate times.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by cavscout View Post
    I think you have a very valid point Moonglow, but I believe you are pushing what the Lord has laid upon your heart unto others. I believe the uses each of us in a different capacity and there is a separate calling for each of us. Apparently, the Lord has laid upon you to not be concerned with the things that are happening or at least has given you a different perspective on them. That does not mean the what the Lord has laid upon someone elseís heart is wrong or unjustified. Maybe there callings to do just as they are doing and yours is to do just as you are doing.

    Do I believe that Chris will return fo his Church? Without a doubt. Is Christ's return, the End Of Days, or the 7 year Tribulation near? I have no clue, but I do believe that things are pointing in that direction. I also believe that things are getting worse and the times in the near future are going to get tough and people will suffer. There are some that say that things have been worse in the past and that the speed at which information travels is the reason it seems worse. I would have to disagree with that, I believe things are worse than they were 10, 25 or 50 years ago. We have just become desensitized to them and the news of 230,000 people being killed in a far off country, or a another homicide or the rape and murder of a child does not affect or comfort zone. So we just pass it off as nothing. You, yourself Moonglow brought up in another post about the ruler of Rome marring a slave boy, having his mother killed and then kicking his wife to death and said there was nothing in current times that would compare to that. Have you ever read or heard the stories of Sodom Husseinís sons and the pain and death he inflicted? Check it out, it may surprise you. That is just the things you can find without digging very deep. Then you can move on down into the horn of Arica where the number that starve to death on a monthly basis number in the hundreds of thousands. Or one from the personal files, a young boy in Israel who picked up a gift from his front porch only to have it blow up in his face, nearly killing him. Why? Because he believes that Christ is the Son of God.

    Your argument has some merit, I wonít argue that point, as think there are some who truly believe they are in Godís will, but they are serving a different master. I also believe there are some that would have the focus taken off of our Lord and onto the times at hand, but if you are true to your faith and you are prepared for the return of the Son of Man, then I think these things cannot and will not distract you from Godís ultimate plan for your life.

    I say to everyone, PRAY FERVENTLY that God reveal Himself to you and that you live your life according to Godís will. If you do that and you are not afraid of where the Lord might lead you, then you have nothing o fear of the coming times.
    You are right..I am pushing people to keep their focus on Christ!

    I truly am concerned many aren't...they are keeping their focus on the antichrist instead! With Christ taking second place. So yea I am going to keep pushing that... I don't think you will find any verse in the bible showing I or anyone shouldn't be doing that.

    I agree everyone is called to do different things...different works in the kingdom but no one is called to ever, ever put the antichrist first...ever.

    As far as my example of Nero is concerned, I guess I didn't make myself clear. Because of him and the rulers before and after him...sexual immorally, idol worshiping, human sacrifice and many other terrible sins were socially acceptable among the common people. It wasn't just one ruler doing terrible things. I have read the news stories on Sodom Husseinís sons and some of the horrors they committed..we could both list horrible rulers and their children over time in history...but with many like his son's, the common people were not allowed to do the things they did. They didn't say as Nero did...do like me! In fact things were even tighter on the common people to strictly follow their Islamic ways...they didn't get any slack (except for the ones enforcing these under Hussein). Men boy sexual relationships were common and acceptable then! Now in many places its against the law. Prostitution and temple prostitutes were the norm also.

    We see Paul in his letters to certain churches addressing how these things are NOT acceptable for Christians to do. Why would he have to point these out and press the issue over and over again? Because these new Christians grew up with those things being common and acceptable being under Roman rule. They thought they were ok to do...they weren't and still aren't.

    I heard testimonies of people that lived during Husseinís time ruling and if anyone even spoke against Hussein they would disappear and the next day their head would be on a pole in their yard as a warning to everyone to not speak against him. Of course you couldn't speak against Nero either or it meant death. But Nero allowed people to do many terrible things as I said..it was considered acceptable and even expected! While most of these dictators throughout history lived one way they expected the common people to live another...

    There are those who are watchmen I agree too with that, that keep an eye on the signs of the times but I see them keeping Christ in the forefront and they don't overly focus on the tribulation or AC. I have no problems with them. They take the time to pray for others on the board and in their churches and neighborhoods, to continue their studies on the bible besides just the end times stuff and are much more well rounded in this. My concern is those that have zeroed in on the trib and AC and see nothing else!

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post

    Just something I'd like to mention here,

    Even though many of us believe Christ's return is near...even should He tarry another 1000 years we all need to live in the expectation of the imminent return of Our Lord.

    I feel that if we all lived as if He were coming back in our lifetimes...there would be a lot less lukewarm churches, and a lot more work in the harvest He has set before us.
    I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

    Perhaps imminent should be defined in this case as "the sure and certain expectation that Christ will return in God's timing".

    Imminent as in: "Intel has reported a build up of troops in this area...we are expecting that an attack is imminent".
    Imminency is probably better understood by what the sign indicates. IOW, if I see dark clouds gathering then I know rain is imminent and I ought to get my umbrella. To try and define imminency without such clear signs is meaningless. The Lord made a clear distinction between the general signs which indicated the age they were in and the specific sign that would indicate His coming was near. We cannot live in certain expectation according to the general non-distinct signs that are found in every age.

    Which is why the writer of Hebrews in ch 6 points out what the anchor of our hope in Christ is founded upon. And it is His never ending priesthood. It is a true anchor because we know that He has risen and has entered into the heavenlies thru the torn veil and intercedes on our behalf. An anchor for hope and faith is found in what has already been done not in speculations about things we don't know because we have no sure sign given to us yet - that we might then know by it the thing that we cannot see.

    The future 2nd coming of Christ is not the anchor for our hope in resurrection. Rather it is Christ's own resurrection upon which we base our hope in eternal life. There is no imminency in effect unless a specific sign is manifested to us. And speculation is not a firm basis for hope. Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him. That is the record we have been given, that we might know the hope that we have - because He is risen - we know we will too and will be like Him when we see Him!

    And if we understand those things then we are less likely to think that either Jesus or the apostles were false prophets who told us things that never did happen as they said they would. Which IMO is why the churches today seem so weak in their faith.
    Robin

    Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
    And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
    Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
    Those who compromise with Christís enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mograce2U View Post
    Imminency is probably better understood by what the sign indicates. IOW, if I see dark clouds gathering then I know rain is imminent and I ought to get my umbrella. To try and define imminency without such clear signs is meaningless. The Lord made a clear distinction between the general signs which indicated the age they were in and the specific sign that would indicate His coming was near. We cannot live in certain expectation according to the general non-distinct signs that are found in every age.

    Which is why the writer of Hebrews in ch 6 points out what the anchor of our hope in Christ is founded upon. And it is His never ending priesthood. It is a true anchor because we know that He has risen and has entered into the heavenlies thru the torn veil and intercedes on our behalf. An anchor for hope and faith is found in what has already been done not in speculations about things we don't know because we have no sure sign given to us yet - that we might then know by it the thing that we cannot see.

    The future 2nd coming of Christ is not the anchor for our hope in resurrection. Rather it is Christ's own resurrection upon which we base our hope in eternal life. There is no imminency in effect unless a specific sign is manifested to us. And speculation is not a firm basis for hope. Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him. That is the record we have been given, that we might know the hope that we have - because He is risen - we know we will too and will be like Him when we see Him!

    And if we understand those things then we are less likely to think that either Jesus or the apostles were false prophets who told us things that never did happen as they said they would. Which IMO is why the churches today seem so weak in their faith.
    Amen and amen. I don't think people realize what they are saying when they say the disciples thought Jesus was going to return in their time either. They are calling the false prophets! Or at the very least casting doubt on scripture in those areas...very dangerous thing indeed! Its us that are reading those verses in the wrong light...not them saying something untrue or in ignorance. So its then 'us' that need to re-examine how we are understanding those verses.

    But the main point of your post and the most important:
    Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him.
    Yes our hope is in what He did already!! That is forgotten far too much on the end times form for sure..

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  12. #42
    Partaker of Christ Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mograce2U View Post
    Imminency is probably better understood by what the sign indicates. IOW, if I see dark clouds gathering then I know rain is imminent and I ought to get my umbrella. To try and define imminency without such clear signs is meaningless. The Lord made a clear distinction between the general signs which indicated the age they were in and the specific sign that would indicate His coming was near. We cannot live in certain expectation according to the general non-distinct signs that are found in every age.

    Which is why the writer of Hebrews in ch 6 points out what the anchor of our hope in Christ is founded upon. And it is His never ending priesthood. It is a true anchor because we know that He has risen and has entered into the heavenlies thru the torn veil and intercedes on our behalf. An anchor for hope and faith is found in what has already been done not in speculations about things we don't know because we have no sure sign given to us yet - that we might then know by it the thing that we cannot see.

    The future 2nd coming of Christ is not the anchor for our hope in resurrection. Rather it is Christ's own resurrection upon which we base our hope in eternal life. There is no imminency in effect unless a specific sign is manifested to us. And speculation is not a firm basis for hope. Our hope is secured by the things that Jesus did in His first coming: His birth, ministry, death, resurrection AND the judgment He wrought thru the signs He predicted and fulfilled. When we know and understand all these things, we have a firm foundation for faith in our knowledge of Him. That is the record we have been given, that we might know the hope that we have - because He is risen - we know we will too and will be like Him when we see Him!

    And if we understand those things then we are less likely to think that either Jesus or the apostles were false prophets who told us things that never did happen as they said they would. Which IMO is why the churches today seem so weak in their faith.
    I have many times seen dark clouds gather, and it has not rained. I have heard thunder, and seen lightning in the sky, and it has not rained.

    There has been many false dawns, but you no what?
    During these false dawns, a number of folk have come to Christ, and a number of Christians have woken out of there slumber. I even know someone very close to me, who was invited to a 'left behind' showing, and they then got to come to many other meetings, because of that movie. They then gave their life to Christ.
    Because that person gave their life to Christ, others also afterwards came to know Him via that person.

    Does a watchman discontinue checking every possible sign, because of all the previous false alarms?

    The second coming is not the anchor for our hope, but it is the end of our faith.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    I wonder though if they were saying this same thing during the Great Depression? It wasn't just American's economy that suffered then either...other major world's stock markets were also badly affected and Hitler was forcing a mark on certain people...actually more things were in place then, then they are now! Check this out

    1929- 1941 Great depression..food shortages...extreme drought causing dust bowls. The depression had devastating effects both in the developed and developing world. International trade was deeply affected, as were personal incomes, tax revenues, prices, and profits. Cities all around the world were hit hard, especially those dependent on heavy industry. List of other nations affected:

    * 4.1 Australia
    * 4.2 Canada
    * 4.3 East Asia
    * 4.4 France
    * 4.5 Germany
    * 4.6 Latin America
    * 4.7 Netherlands
    * 4.8 South Africa
    * 4.9 Soviet Union
    * 4.10 United Kingdom

    1933-1945 Hitler

    1939-1945 world world 2 ...nearly every nation in the world was involved in this war. Probably why they called it WORLD war..
    The war involved the mobilization of over 100 million military personnel, making it the most widespread war in history....Over 70 million people, the majority of them civilians, were killed...

    Three years later in 1948 Israel becomes a nation...and the day after they did they were attacked by surrounding Arab countries..

    It would seems as if a Great Tribulation was certainly going on then Israel becoming a nation again...I would bet alot of Christians probably expected the return of Christ at that point in time...


    God bless
    People have always been looking for Jesus and hoping for his return, so that is not surprising. Even in the year 1000 they were awaiting Christ's return.

    The consolidation of the world markets is definitely something to be watched out for. If someone comes and stabalizes the economies, then he is the one to watch out for.

  14. #44
    Partaker of Christ Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Amen and amen. I don't think people realize what they are saying when they say the disciples thought Jesus was going to return in their time either. They are calling the false prophets! Or at the very least casting doubt on scripture in those areas...very dangerous thing indeed! Its us that are reading those verses in the wrong light...not them saying something untrue or in ignorance. So its then 'us' that need to re-examine how we are understanding those verses.

    But the main point of your post and the most important:


    Yes our hope is in what He did already!! That is forgotten far too much on the end times form for sure..

    God bless
    He is the Alpha and the Omega.
    What He has already done is the Alpha of our faith. When He comes again, we will have the Omega of our faith.

  15. #45
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    I'm not sure why it is assumed that folks in ETC here forget Jesus accomplished work on the cross when all this study of judgment, persecution and wrath would terrify those who don't know or "forgot". Most ETCers march in bravely to any discussion without fear because they understand and have faith in what Christ accomplished and what our promises are.




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