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Thread: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

  1. #46
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    The return of fallen Babylon to rule over the world occurs in steps shown in the seals of Rev.ch 6.

    The first seal shows the process using religious means, many. (humanism is also a religious endeavour as is spiritualism)

    The second seal shows it breaking down to military means.

    The third seal shows the economic means

    and the fourth seal shows the chaos resulting from all of these failed means.

    The fourth seal describes the rule of cruel tyrants over the masses and we should all know about this because of past history and the kinds of things happening in Zimbabwa where the old regimes were kicked out and then blamed for all of the present woes.

    It is nothing more than the rise of cruel rulerships who have no regard for God and will think of themselves as being god.

    This is all bought about by the spiritual falling away of past institutions of government of both church and state and the proliforation of sin among the populace which actually began when things were relatively peaceful.

    When the tyrants finish with punishing the former rulers (of church and of state) then they will seek to go too far . Isaiah ch 10.

    We must keep in mind that such tyranical rule does not have to come from somewhere else to where we live.

    In fact the great miltary power of the major nations rules that out before the return of Christ because the Bible speaks so often of the combining of those powerful nations into the one unified purpose.

    The Bible rules out that Russia will invade America in a surprise attack ( we shall judge angels--a lying spirit has spoken to many people, men like Brugerman, Hagee, Branham, Hinn.)

    (an aside- the falling down phenomoma as by Hinn is actually the sign of the presence of the lying spirit of a false prophet and false Christ)

    and Islam is no threat of overcoming the west either.

    The greatest dangers are all within every country, but all false prophets warn of danger from outside. Christ Himself never did that.

    Christ taught submission to God and that God would make even their enemies to be at peace with them, though it all took the shedding of blood to do it, (Their own, not other people's.)


    Merton.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merton View Post
    Islam is no threat of overcoming the west.
    The naivete in this statement is astounding.
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    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    The naivete in this statement is astounding.

    You can think that, but every false prophet in the country has advised the military conquest of Islam as solving the problem of Islam, without giving attention to the reasons why they have become a problem in the first place. (which intervention is not as mankind so often supposes it will be)

    False prophets advise the people to fight by carnal means, and do not identify the sins of the people that they might repent, in order that God would intervene on their behalf.

    False prophets are experts on indentifying the sins of their enemies in order to justify their destroying them by carnal means, and thus avoid repenting of their own sins, which is and will destroy themselves.

    Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Hag 2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of the kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the nations. And I will overthrow the chariots and their riders. And the horses and their riders shall come down, each one by the sword of his brother.

    Merton

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merton View Post
    You can think that, but every false prophet in the country has advised the military conquest of Islam as solving the problem of Islam, without giving attention to the reasons why they have become a problem in the first place. (which intervention is not as mankind so often supposes it will be)
    I do not support military action against Islam. My Bible makes it clear that, at least for seven years, Islam is going to rule the world. There's nothing we can do to stop it. Our only hope is to raise awareness to keep individuals from getting caught in its snare of lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Merton View Post
    False prophets advise the people to fight by carnal means, and do not identify the sins of the people that they might repent, in order that God would intervene on their behalf.
    I do not advise any fighting against Islam on a worldly level. At best, that would only be a temporary solution. What we really need is for so-called Christians to wake up and realize what's going on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Merton View Post
    False prophets are experts on indentifying the sins of their enemies in order to justify their destroying them by carnal means, and thus avoid repenting of their own sins, which is and will destroy themselves.
    I would point the finger straight at the so-called church for being so fleshly in our modern society and burying our head in the sand to the real problems going on around us, of which Islam is only among the most severe. There are many more, however.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    I'm not sure why it is assumed that folks in ETC here forget Jesus accomplished work on the cross when all this study of judgment, persecution and wrath would terrify those who don't know or "forgot". Most ETCers march in bravely to any discussion without fear because they understand and have faith in what Christ accomplished and what our promises are.
    I know for me its because I see no mention of Christ in far too many of those types of posts of how brave someone will be during a time of persecution. I freely admit I would be a total coward! Any courage I have will have to come from Christ if such a thing were to happen. My concern, as others have said it also their concern, is those that talk very bravely but don't mention Christ or God or even the Holy Spirit getting them through. They talk about how 'they' will survive and the plans 'they' have. Some do say simply they will have to reply totally on the Holy Spirit in times like this and don't say anything else about themselves in how 'they' will handle it. See what I mean? The focus is "I" in these posts and not "God". Its very easy to say how brave we will be while sitting in the comfort our own homes safe and sound (other have mentioned this same thing...easy to say when we are safe and only imaging the worse).

    I don't know that I could be brave simply being mugged or going through a break in actually! Those type of things are actually more likely to happen to any of us at any time too...

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  6. #51
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    I think Islam is indeed a huge threat to a great part of the world actually. They are over taking Europe...have converted many in some parts of Africa..some by force. I am hearing about more and more conversions in places I was truly surprised to hear about such as even in Hindu nations. I don't know about China, Russia or Japan though. I do know they really push their literature in prisons...something that appeals especially to some of the more violent inmates those that have a grudge.

    In the middle east they teach their children to hate us and the Jews and the Christians everywhere and teach them to kill...even killing themselves in the process. CNN is constantly having news articles about the things going on more indepth with especially the women there. They had something on there the other day about wives setting themselves on fire just to avoid being abused by their husbands...truly ghastly things going on with them.

    I will admit the idea of having to deal with these extremist terrifies me. I was very foolish a few years ago when they were doing their horrible beheadings and hunted down the video of that one man they beheaded. I don't think I will ever forget his screams. While I couldn't see much, I do know his neck was sawed off. People think being beheaded it quick and nearly painless..not the way they go about it! you would think they were just cutting up a deer or something..but these are human beings!

    And I saw a video of them having a young boy..maybe my son's age, behead a man. I simply cannot image...don't want to image this stuff! Its truly frightening. I think they bear watching for sure. Their numbers are increasing quite rapidly...many through their high birth rate...but also through conversation..willing or not...

    In some parts of Africa they are kidnapping families...crucifying the men, raping and beating the women...forcing the women and children to take Islamic names and pray to Allah....

    On youtube for instance, they have video's all over the place attacking and denouncing our faith and Jesus. They make it so comments have to be approved before they appear...so any rebuttals from Christians aren't allowed...believe me I tried. They have a video using barbie dolls to make fun of David Pearls beheading...

    Whether they play a part in the end time events I don't know...I don't see how they couldn't though as this is such a large group of people...

    I also realize not all Muslims live or believe as these do in the middle east and elsewhere and do get along peacefully with others. Especially in the US...but consider this. I try to teach my son to get along with and be respectful to everyone, regardless of their race, or religion .. he tried visiting with a muslim student a couple of years ago during lunch time at school and this boy told him, he hated all Christians. My son was just in the fourth grade then. It starts early. We teach our children the way of the Lord..to train them up in the way of the Lord...which means to love your neighbor and God of course....they are also teaching their children early too and its quite the opposite of what we are teaching ours...they god they serve seems to have little to do with love.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    ...they are also teaching their children early too and its quite the opposite of what we are teaching ours...they god they serve seems to have little to do with love.
    God bless
    This is really sad

    my God; in Him I will trust (Psa 91:2).

    If you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior, NOW is the time.

    Persevere, pray and be ready for the Return of Christ.

  8. #53
    Hey LL, I'd have gotten back yesterday...but I had oral surgery in the afternoon...Bear with me this a.m....I feel like I've been worked over with a rifle butt...

    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    They were obviously mistaken, weren't they?
    A moot point, my friend.

    My point was that the early church lived as if Christ would return in their lifetimes, and this ingrained within them an urgency to both live for, and serve Him wholeheartedly.

    Jesus gave us a very specific list of signs of His return to watch for. After those signs are fulfilled, then the Rapture is imminent.

    Let's try this: Show me one Scripture that proves immanency.
    Why? As your mind is already made up...would not any scripture or exegesis thereof simply be reinterpreted in accordance with your own bias?

    (I don't mean that in an insulting way...and if it came out wrong...sorry...but it is a legitimate question)
    Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



    ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


    A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    My reasoning behind that is because the Antichrist is going to be Islamic, Babylon is going to have to rise again to become a world-class city, plus the Antichrist is going to be from the region around Turkey. Babylon and Turkey will both have to rise for the Tribulation to get underway.
    Explain to me your reasoning behind Babylon rising as a great city again...when the Lord said it would never be rebuilt? Who knows...ya may larn me sumpin'

    Isaiah 13:18-22

    Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces, And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb; Their eye will not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It will never be inhabited, Nor will it be settled from generation to generation; Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there, Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches will dwell there, And wild goats will caper there. 22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels, And jackals in their pleasant palaces. Her time is near to come, And her days will not be prolonged.”


    Isaiah 14:22-23


    For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts, And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant, And offspring and posterity,” says the LORD. 23 “ I will also make it a possession for the porcupine, And marshes of muddy water; I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the LORD of hosts.


    Now, it could be argued that these speak of future events...except the prophecy (and that in Jer 51) has already been fulfilled.


    I don't know if you've ever been to the area, or even seen pictures of the area...but the site of Babylon (which was so fertile and green that the historian Herodotus refused to write publicly about it lest people think he was insane) is now nothing more than a trackless waste of desert. The only thing that give any evidence that a great city once stood are the heaps of ruins and rubbish that litter the site.


    Therefore, for Babylon to be (literally) rebuilt as a city, God must recant His promise; is that not correct?


    Also is the problem with Revelation 18:17-18:


    For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’


    Babylon is located well inland...in fact is land-locked...so how could sailors on the sea see the smoke of her burning?



    What is your explanation?
    Ιησούς Χριστός ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου



    ****When the Lord opens a door, don't walk through it....run full speed; if it's the wrong one He'll let ya know...sometimes He just wants to see if you'll move at all!****


    A Minister of God Ministry - Support and understanding for a Christian serving in the military

  10. #55

    To: MOONGLOW

    Our hearts are only desperately wicked until we are born again, at that moment we are given a new heart that we are to guard at all cost(Proverbs 4:23). If you are are in Christ your wicked heart has passed away and behold all things are new.

  11. #56
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    Hi Mcgyver,
    You didn't ask me but I have an opinion! The key I think lies in the sybolizing of using Bablyon, Sodom and Egypt - even Gog & Magog to refer to earthly Jerusalem. Israel was warned by the judgments meted out to their ancient enemies, that if she followed them in suit - those things would also come upon her. See Deut 32 as one example.
    Robin

    Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
    And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
    Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
    Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

  12. #57
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    Literalist-Luke,
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mcgyver
    I beg to differ...the Thessalonians and Paul himself expected Christ to return in their life times...

    Literalist-Luke: They were obviously mistaken, weren't they?
    Are you really prepared to call the apostles of the Lord false prophets? Christ Himself said that generation which witnessed His FIRST coming would see all these things come to pass. So apparently Christ is in question too in your mind? Somehow I doubt that is the position you want to hold.
    Robin

    Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
    And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
    Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
    Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    The naivete in this statement is astounding.
    We know what the intentions are.

    But, we also know what'll happen if the watchmen are doing their job.

    Since I'm keeping you company in the pit, join me in the gap, eh?


  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mograce2U View Post
    Are you really prepared to call the apostles of the Lord false prophets? Christ Himself said that generation which witnessed His FIRST coming would see all these things come to pass. So apparently Christ is in question too in your mind? Somehow I doubt that is the position you want to hold.
    Calm down, you're not even aware of my understanding of the Olivet Discourse.

    Paul and the apostles never once said anywhere in the Bible that Jesus would be back within their lifetime. That would be the only thing that would have made them false prophets, for such a statement to have made it into the Scriptures. If they expressed that opinion on their own to people who they were acquainted with, that does not constitute false prophecy. It only constitutes a plain, simple mistake. It's nothing to get in a huff over.

    When Jesus said that generation would not pass away, He was referring to the events of 70 AD. You have to take the entire Olivet Discourse into consideration. It's spread out over Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Without all three together, you're not getting the full picture. Then, you have to join the common connecting points, starting with the disciples' questions at the beginning of Matthew 24, and assemble it into a comprehensive whole with the questions being answered in order. Jesus did not attempt to make it mysterious or confusing. It's a very straight forward answer to the disciples three questions. The reason so many people find it confusing is because they usually only read one account of the Olivet Discourse and consequently only get a partial answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post
    As your mind is already made up...would not any scripture or exegesis thereof simply be reinterpreted in accordance with your own bias?

    (I don't mean that in an insulting way...and if it came out wrong...sorry...but it is a legitimate question)
    No problem, it's a good question. You probably aren't aware that I used to be a Pre-Tribber. In fact, I was one of the most stubborn, die-hard Pre-Tribbers you could ever meet. I was on a mission to show all those Post-Tribbers, Mid-Tribbers, and Pre-Wrathers just how horribly wrong they were and get them to correct the errors of their ways.

    But, even more important than that was for me to remain absolutely faithful to the Word of God. I mean, if my position regarding the Rapture was wrong, wouldn't it behoove me to correct it instead of going around stubbornly clinging to a lie? But I thought Pre-Trib was the Truth (with a capital "T"), so I was blissfully happy. Then one day, a post-tribber asked me to provide one verse that proved immanency. I rubbed my hands in glee, rolled up my sleeves and prepared to provide an avalanche of verses that would blow him away.

    When I started going to the verses that I was familiar with, it occurred to me that, while there could be an interpretation of immanency taken from them, they wouldn't really prove it to the satisfaction of somebody with an alternative point of view. No problem, I'll just research it on the internet and find some more verses, I thought. The more I looked, the more I found that, sure, we're supposed to be watching for the Return of Christ. But nowhere could I find anything that specifically said the Rapture is the next item on the agenda.

    That threw me off, and I decided I needed to reconsider the whole issue, if for no other reason than to simply shore up my position on Pre-Trib. The more I looked, the more I started finding where a number of "proofs" for Pre-Trib are actually no proof at all, and in fact, some of the pet arguments put forth are blatantly unBiblical.

    But I refused to accept classical Post-Trib or the other traditional positions because I had already proved them wrong in my mind, so it occurred to me next that, "Maybe it's something that nobody's gotten right." So I started digging through prophecy passages all over the Bible. This was around March of 2007. I spent a whole year honestly not knowing in my mind when the Rapture would be, because every position I came up with, including the traditional four, had at least one problem with it that eliminated it as a candidate. I was a real pro at shooting down everybody else's position, but I couldn't even decide on my own.

    By spring of this year, I was leaning toward Post-Trib and terrified at the possibility it might be true. But the one thing that kept me from adopting was the old argument, "Who re-populates the Millennium?" Since I was not aware of a satisfactory answer that Post-Trib could provide, I continued rejecting Post-Trib. Then I made a discovery that changed everything.

    It was these verses right here:

    Isaiah 2:2-4 – “In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

    Who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Most Pre-tribbers would quickly argue (as I once did) that this is talking about unbelievers who are born later on during the already-established Kingdom. But then, where did the “swords” and “spears” come from? If all weapons are banned during the Millennial Kingdom, why are these people having to “beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks”? They have apparently entered the Kingdom with this equipment and are now having to destroy it.

    Isaiah 14:1-2 – “The Lord will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors.

    Again, who is the bolded part speaking of if not unbelievers who have entered the Millennial Kingdom? Do pre-tribbers wish to suggest that gentile believers will be Israel’s slaves during the Millennium? I didn’t think so.

    One more:

    Zechariah 14:16 – “Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.

    Who are these survivors? We know that Jesus is going to destroy the ones with the Mark at the 2nd Coming, so who are these people?

    So the answer to the problem with Post-Trib and repopulating the Millennium is that the Millennium will be repopulated with the descendants of lost survivors of the Day of the Lord.

    When I discovered that, I realized that Post-Trib has to be true.

    I have to tell you something else, and I really, really pray this doesn't sound arrogant, because I really don't want to seem proud or boastful here. I mean, it took me over a year to figure this out, so what right do I have to be arrogant about this?

    But after I realized the Rapture is Post-Trib and started re-examining prophecy passages from that point of view, whole sections of the Bible that had previously not made complete sense suddenly because as clear as reading today's newspaper. Even the history of salvation started becoming clear in a new way that had never been there before. It was like getting that one piece of the puzzle in the right place made the whole puzzle suddenly just come together.

    The reason I'm boring you with all this is simply because I want you to understand that if you can show me a passage that really does prove immanency, I'm certainly willing to consider it. It's just that I've been in your exact same spot and tried to take on the challenge. I wasn't able to do it. So see if you can succeed where I failed. But before you accuse me of having my mind made up, make sure you're not guilty of the same thing. Try to consider it with an open mind yourself. I spent a whole year doing that very thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver View Post
    Explain to me your reasoning behind Babylon rising as a great city again...when the Lord said it would never be rebuilt? Who knows...ya may larn me sumpin'

    Isaiah 13:18-22

    Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces, And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb; Their eye will not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It will never be inhabited, Nor will it be settled from generation to generation; Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there, Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches will dwell there, And wild goats will caper there. 22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels, And jackals in their pleasant palaces. Her time is near to come, And her days will not be prolonged.”

    Isaiah 14:22-23

    For I will rise up against them,” says the LORD of hosts, And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant, And offspring and posterity,” says the LORD. 23 “ I will also make it a possession for the porcupine, And marshes of muddy water; I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the LORD of hosts.

    Now, it could be argued that these speak of future events...except the prophecy (and that in Jer 51) has already been fulfilled.


    I don't know if you've ever been to the area, or even seen pictures of the area...but the site of Babylon (which was so fertile and green that the historian Herodotus refused to write publicly about it lest people think he was insane) is now nothing more than a trackless waste of desert. The only thing that give any evidence that a great city once stood are the heaps of ruins and rubbish that litter the site.

    Therefore, for Babylon to be (literally) rebuilt as a city, God must recant His promise; is that not correct?

    Also is the problem with Revelation 18:17-18:

    For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’

    Babylon is located well inland...in fact is land-locked...so how could sailors on the sea see the smoke of her burning?

    What is your explanation?
    My explanation is very simple. When the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon the night Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall in Daniel 5, they did it without firing one shot. The only person who died was King Belshazzar. The Medes/Persians snuck in through the water inlets in the city's sewer system and took the entire city by surprise, because of the drunken revelry of the king's party that we read about in Daniel 5.

    The city of Babylon has NEVER been destroyed. It is still there at this very moment. When Saddam Hussein went into Babylon during his regime to start rebuilding it (the idea being that he was going to be the next Nebuchadnezzar), he was able to hire people who were already living there to start the project. The city has never been abandoned in the way the prophetic passages describe. The city has indeed deteriorated over the centuries, but it has never been violently overthrown in the manner described in the Bible passages you bring up. Those thing still have yet to occur. That's why I'm looking for Babylon to rise again. I'm open to the possibility that it might be somewhere else in the area, like maybe Dubai, but I'm pretty leery about that, since the Bible is so emphatic about "Babylon". I mean, God had Isaiah specify the name "Cyrus" as the person who would liberate His people from the Babylonian exile, so couldn't God have also had somebody specify the name "Dubai" if He needed? So I tend to think the actual city of Babylon will rise again.

    And now for the umpteenth time, for those who scoff at the idea of Babylon rising again, people spent centuries laughing at those who insisted that Israel would rise again. Nobody's laughing today.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

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