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Thread: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    My explanation is very simple. When the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon the night Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall in Daniel 5, they did it without firing one shot. The only person who died was King Belshazzar. The Medes/Persians snuck in through the water inlets in the city's sewer system and took the entire city by surprise, because of the drunken revelry of the king's party that we read about in Daniel 5.

    The city of Babylon has NEVER been destroyed. It is still there at this very moment. When Saddam Hussein went into Babylon during his regime to start rebuilding it (the idea being that he was going to be the next Nebuchadnezzar), he was able to hire people who were already living there to start the project. The city has never been abandoned in the way the prophetic passages describe. The city has indeed deteriorated over the centuries, but it has never been violently overthrown in the manner described in the Bible passages you bring up. Those thing still have yet to occur. That's why I'm looking for Babylon to rise again. I'm open to the possibility that it might be somewhere else in the area, like maybe Dubai, but I'm pretty leery about that, since the Bible is so emphatic about "Babylon". I mean, God had Isaiah specify the name "Cyrus" as the person who would liberate His people from the Babylonian exile, so couldn't God have also had somebody specify the name "Dubai" if He needed? So I tend to think the actual city of Babylon will rise again.

    And now for the umpteenth time, for those who scoff at the idea of Babylon rising again, people spent centuries laughing at those who insisted that Israel would rise again. Nobody's laughing today.
    Oh I remember the news stories about this! It was really creepy too what he was doing.

    Here is a photo of King Nebuchadnezzar's Palace in ancient Babylon
    http://architecture.about.com/od/the...r-s-Palace.htm

    Marines approach the ancient city of Babylon
    http://architecture.about.com/od/the...in-Babylon.htm

    Here is the story about Hussein building a new palace to himself there:
    Saddam's Babylonian Palace

    Seems likes something spooked Hussein off though from it but I can't remember what is was that happened...and no not the war. Something happened there that made him run scared....wish I could remember. But yes people still live there.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by wesand24 View Post
    Our hearts are only desperately wicked until we are born again, at that moment we are given a new heart that we are to guard at all cost(Proverbs 4:23). If you are are in Christ your wicked heart has passed away and behold all things are new.
    Proverbs 4:23

    23 Guard your heart above all else,
    for it determines the course of your life.


    Ok..I don't get what you mean with this verse...sorry...


    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  3. #63
    Shinar was to rebuild in the endtimes!

    Iraq exists today!

    so does Israel

    so do the Palestinians

    so does Egypt

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
    Shinar was to rebuild in the endtimes!

    Iraq exists today!

    so does Israel

    so do the Palestinians

    so does Egypt
    Now I am confused, what does Prov. 4:23 have to do with the above posting. Are you claiming that the 'new heart' gives us a prophetic insight that must lead us to agree with you?????
    God happens!
    'I Can Only Imagine'

    Bless the Beasts and the Children:
    http://youtu.be/AhR36gV6vW4

    On cautionary note:
    Quote Originally Posted by ProjectPeter
    When they say something... it is about anyone's guess what it is they really mean... but NEVER ask for clarification of their mysterious language... they are often very happy to give it and that's when the discussion goes FREAKY!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    And now for the umpteenth time, for those who scoff at the idea of Babylon rising again, people spent centuries laughing at those who insisted that Israel would rise again. Nobody's laughing today.
    You might want to take note that apostate Israel is likened to Babylon in scripture, then you might be able to see who Babylon really is in our day - earthly Jerusalem.
    Robin

    Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established that, unless one loves the truth, he cannot know it. - Blaise Pascal
    And Jesus saith unto him [Thomas], I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6
    Discernment is not needed in things that differ, but in things that appear to be the same. - Miles Sanford
    Those who compromise with Christ’s enemies may be reckoned with them. - C.H. Spurgeon

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mograce2U View Post
    You might want to take note that apostate Israel is likened to Babylon in scripture, then you might be able to see who Babylon really is in our day - earthly Jerusalem.
    I've tried arguing with Jerusalem=Babylon people before and wasted my time. No more.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

  7. #67
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    I always leave these threads more confused but thanks for that statement your Grandma had hanging up Moon. I've copied it and plan to print it out as a reminder to myself.
    Peace.
    ***
    My memory is nearly gone;
    but I remember two things;
    That I am a great sinner, and
    that Christ is a great Saviour.
    John Newton (1725-1807)
    English minister and hymn writer

  8. #68

    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    I know everyone wants the Lord to return to the earth soon in association with a tribulation and an Antichrist. But please remember those statements about the Lord coming soon were probably written between AD 40 and 65. That's at least 1,954 year ago and counting. And they were written to ancient people in various Greek and Turkish area Christian churches. Why in the world would those ancient people be told the Lord was coming for them, and soon, when in almost 2 thousand years He hasn't come? I can think of only three possible explanations:
    1. It's a lie.
    2. The apostles were wrong.
    3. We have misunderstood something.
    I tend to go with number three. When the people of the past are talking to the people of the past -- you're not in the conversation.
    And by the way Literalist-Luke, the Babylon referred to in Rev was indeed Jerusalem.

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    I know everyone wants the Lord to return to the earth soon in association with a tribulation and an Antichrist. But please remember those statements about the Lord coming soon were probably written between AD 40 and 65. That's at least 1,954 year ago and counting. And they were written to ancient people in various Greek and Turkish area Christian churches. Why in the world would those ancient people be told the Lord was coming for them, and soon, when in almost 2 thousand years He hasn't come? I can think of only three possible explanations:
    1. It's a lie.
    2. The apostles were wrong.
    3. We have misunderstood something.
    I tend to go with number three. When the people of the past are talking to the people of the past -- you're not in the conversation.
    And by the way Literalist-Luke, the Babylon referred to in Rev was indeed Jerusalem.
    Bingo...………………………………….

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    I recently wrote this elsewhere--I think it relates to what you're describing:

    Postribulation Theology is, in fact, the historical position of the Christian Church. The Apostles and the Early Church may or may not have expected an imminent coming of Christ's Kingdom. However, it was always believed that the Antichrist would be revealed before Christ's 2nd Coming, and that Christ's Coming would, in fact, be for the purpose of defeating the Antichrist.

    This is a major argument for Postribulationism. Pretribulationism believes that Christ will return twice, one time before Antichrist's Reign, and again, at the end of his Reign, to destroy him. The argument for Pretribulationism is predicated on the notion that the Scriptures taught the Church to expect Christ's Return "at any moment."

    This is, I believe, an absurd idea, to expect Christ could come "at any moment," since, in fact, God has in mind a set day for this event--we just don't know what day that is.

    Rather, we are called upon to watch for a surprise Return of Christ not because it can take place at any time, but rather, because there are things about life that can distract us from living for Christ. We are warned to remain vigilant against deceivers, and against the deceitfulness of materialism, which can rob us of our spiritual values.

    Theologically, the evidence for Postribulationism is predicated on a relative few major concepts. One, 2 Thessalonians 2 explicitly teaches that Christ will only come for his Church at the time he comes to destroy the Antichrist. Although this interpretation is assaulted, I don't see how it can be ignored as a "natural interpretation?"

    Secondly, the 2nd Coming in the NT Scriptures is largely based on one major passage in the OT Scriptures, namely Daniel 7. That passage is the exclusive basis for belief in the coming Antichrist in the OT Scriptures. And all that is written about the Antichrist in the book of Revelation is based on Daniel 7.

    So when we look at biblical depictions of Christ's Return in the NT Scriptures we should find that all of the ways this event is described should be comparable and consistent with the way it is described in Daniel 7.

    And we do. In Daniel 7 we read of the Son of Man coming with the clouds in the context of final judgment and in the context of the destruction of the Antichrist. This is all Postribulational. God bless.

  11. #71
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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I recently wrote this elsewhere--I think it relates to what you're describing:

    Postribulation Theology is, in fact, the historical position of the Christian Church. The Apostles and the Early Church may or may not have expected an imminent coming of Christ's Kingdom. However, it was always believed that the Antichrist would be revealed before Christ's 2nd Coming, and that Christ's Coming would, in fact, be for the purpose of defeating the Antichrist.

    This is a major argument for Postribulationism. Pretribulationism believes that Christ will return twice, one time before Antichrist's Reign, and again, at the end of his Reign, to destroy him. The argument for Pretribulationism is predicated on the notion that the Scriptures taught the Church to expect Christ's Return "at any moment."

    This is, I believe, an absurd idea, to expect Christ could come "at any moment," since, in fact, God has in mind a set day for this event--we just don't know what day that is.

    Rather, we are called upon to watch for a surprise Return of Christ not because it can take place at any time, but rather, because there are things about life that can distract us from living for Christ. We are warned to remain vigilant against deceivers, and against the deceitfulness of materialism, which can rob us of our spiritual values.

    Theologically, the evidence for Postribulationism is predicated on a relative few major concepts. One, 2 Thessalonians 2 explicitly teaches that Christ will only come for his Church at the time he comes to destroy the Antichrist. Although this interpretation is assaulted, I don't see how it can be ignored as a "natural interpretation?"

    Secondly, the 2nd Coming in the NT Scriptures is largely based on one major passage in the OT Scriptures, namely Daniel 7. That passage is the exclusive basis for belief in the coming Antichrist in the OT Scriptures. And all that is written about the Antichrist in the book of Revelation is based on Daniel 7.

    So when we look at biblical depictions of Christ's Return in the NT Scriptures we should find that all of the ways this event is described should be comparable and consistent with the way it is described in Daniel 7.

    And we do. In Daniel 7 we read of the Son of Man coming with the clouds in the context of final judgment and in the context of the destruction of the Antichrist. This is all Postribulational. God bless.
    Daniel 7:13-14
    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    This is not the second coming Jesus in coming on the clouds too heaven to sit on the right hand of and in the presence of the Father this matches the time in the verse below right after Jesus was snatch up to God and His throne


    Revelation 12:10

    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
    “Now have come the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Messiah.
    For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.

    Both verses say that the Messiah receives His authority at this time this happened when Jesus ascended back up to heaven in Acts chapter 2.

  12. #72
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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Daniel 7:13-14
    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    This is not the second coming Jesus in coming on the clouds too heaven to sit on the right hand of and in the presence of the Father this matches the time in the verse below right after Jesus was snatch up to God and His throne


    Revelation 12:10

    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
    “Now have come the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Messiah.
    For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.

    Both verses say that the Messiah receives His authority at this time this happened when Jesus ascended back up to heaven in Acts chapter 2.
    I understand that's your argument for your PP position, and that's okay. However, I also have reasons for believing in my eschatological position. Jesus did receive authority when he ascended into heaven. However, he did not establish his Kingdom on earth immediately. That will not happen until the last enemy, death, is defeated as the 2nd Coming. (I'm not really positive about this particular verse, though.)

    I also interpret Rev 12 differently than you do. Yes, Jesus is snatched up to heaven, and then the Kingdom of God is described as coming. However, a lot happens between the 2 events, even thought they are sort of juxtaposed. What we're seeing is a cosmic battle that begins with an attack on Christ and ends with the coming of the Kingdom at the 2nd Coming. I do *not* see the coming of the Kingdom, nor the 2nd Coming, happening in the time immediately following Jesus' ascension.

    We simply have different povs, and that's okay.

  13. #73
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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I understand that's your argument for your PP position, and that's okay. However, I also have reasons for believing in my eschatological position. Jesus did receive authority when he ascended into heaven. However, he did not establish his Kingdom on earth immediately. That will not happen until the last enemy, death, is defeated as the 2nd Coming. (I'm not really positive about this particular verse, though.)

    I also interpret Rev 12 differently than you do. Yes, Jesus is snatched up to heaven, and then the Kingdom of God is described as coming. However, a lot happens between the 2 events, even thought they are sort of juxtaposed. What we're seeing is a cosmic battle that begins with an attack on Christ and ends with the coming of the Kingdom at the 2nd Coming. I do *not* see the coming of the Kingdom, nor the 2nd Coming, happening in the time immediately following Jesus' ascension.

    We simply have different povs, and that's okay.
    Yes it is okay LOL

    How about these verses specially Luke 17:20-21

    Matthew 3:2
    In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
    “A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
    ‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
    make straight paths for him.’”[a]

    4:17
    17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

    Mark 1:15
    15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

    Luke 17:20-21
    20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[c]

    Matthew 6:10
    10your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.

    Daniel 2:35 & 44-45

    35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

    44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
    “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

    Don't you think that these verses show that the kingdom in now on the earth within us?

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes it is okay LOL

    How about these verses specially Luke 17:20-21

    Matthew 3:2
    In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” 3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
    “A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
    ‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
    make straight paths for him.’”[a]

    4:17
    17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

    Mark 1:15
    15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

    Luke 17:20-21
    20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[c]

    Matthew 6:10
    10your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.

    Daniel 2:35 & 44-45

    35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

    44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
    “The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

    Don't you think that these verses show that the kingdom in now on the earth within us?
    There is an element of that, but most of it is saying something else, I feel. Saying "the Kingdom is *near*" is not saying the Kingdom is *here.*

    Saying the Kingdom is "in your midst" is just Jesus saying he was in the midst of his listeners. Again, the Kingdom had a present existence, but was not yet realized.

    The passage in Dan 2 indicates that at the end of the times of the Gentiles God's Kingdom will be set up on earth. The Jews understood this to be the Israeli Hope, the Messianic Age to Come. That age is not yet because the Jews remain dispersed and unfulfilled. They are not yet a Christian nation.

    In case you've not noticed, and I know you have, the Christian nations have fallen on hard times. Christendom is generally in serious decline. The Coming of the Lord must take place to restore the things that have fallen, and, I believe, Israel must also be restored, having fallen as well.

    When Jesus said, "your Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven," he was saying that the Kingdom is still in heaven. Even though there are elements of the Kingdom among us, this is only a spiritual phenomena, and the material Kingdom has not yet taken place.

    In sum, there are indeed many elements of the Kingdom already in effect on earth. The gospel is being preached, the Church exists, and the power of God is moving through His people. However, the actual arrival of the Kingdom requires a major change on earth, and that is not yet.

  15. #75
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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Daniel 7:13-14
    13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

    This is not the second coming Jesus in coming on the clouds too heaven to sit on the right hand of and in the presence of the Father this matches the time in the verse below right after Jesus was snatch up to God and His throne


    Revelation 12:10

    10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
    “Now have come the salvation and the power
    and the kingdom of our God,
    and the authority of his Messiah.
    For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
    who accuses them before our God day and night,
    has been hurled down.

    Both verses say that the Messiah receives His authority at this time this happened when Jesus ascended back up to heaven in Acts chapter 2.
    Neither Dan 7 or Rev 12 that you quote speaks of Jesus ascending into heaven.
    The Accuser was not thrown down when Jesus ascended, for IF he had been then Jesus would not need to intercede for us anymore, for the Accuser would be not be there.
    Further Dan 7:14 states Jesus has all nations and peoples worshipping Him. That was NOT true when Jesus had ascended into heaven. We know that between Jesus ascending and the holy Spirit coming was a delay of 10 days, and that the gospel was not preached during this time, but only AFTERWARDS.
    If ALL nations and peoples worshipped Him at His ascension then there would be no need to wait for the Holy Spirit to come in power for us to be able to witness effectively.

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