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Thread: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

  1. #106
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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    Thank you for helping to keep the flame alive, marty fox.
    Ditto LOL...…...

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Let history prove the truth. On the day of Pentecost the church was a room full of people and within 30 to 40 years Paul states that the gospel was spread all over the known world. Since then multi millions of people have been saved all over the world the rock has already into a huge mountain all over the world

    At the second coming gods kingdom wont be small it will be all the world

    Where in Daniel chapter 2 is the antichrist mentioned?

    Hes not
    No, I agree--Antichrist is not mentioned in Dan 2. The only place he is specifically referred to in the OT Scriptures is Dan 7, the Little Horn.

    However, Dan 2 and Dan 7 appear to be related. Both dreams envision 4 kingdoms rising, culminating in an endtime conflict.

    I believe it is *after this conflict* that the Rock grows into a Mountain. Clearly, the Rock is "cut out" at the initial appearance of Christ. And clearly, the Church does become, in a sense, a "mountain," as you suggest. I just don't think that's what the prophecy is talking about.

    Instead of talking about the growth of the Church, the emphasis, in the OT era, is on Israel. The growth of Christianity into a "mountain," therefore," takes place after the Salvation of Israel, at Christ's 2nd Coming.

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Pergola View Post
    To those who believe there is a hidden conversation in Matt 24 between verse 2 and 3, I would point out the same conversation in Luke 21:5-7. Now I know that we have been told from the cradle that Jesus is yet to come, and it has been made into the framework of modern Christian theology. But with your patience I'll try to make the case clearer.
    The disciples marvel at the buildings on the temple mount. Jesus reveals they will all be totally destroyed. They ask what signs will they see that will warn them of this coming destruction. Jesus then lists the events they will see:
    1. There will be false messiahs who will try to mislead them (mislead them-not you). -- and there were. Two are mentioned in Acts, one being Theudas in 5:36, and the other being the Egyptian in 21:38. And there were several others in the 1st century.
    2. They will hear of wars and insurrections (they will hear-not you), and they undoubtedly did. The great Jewish rebellion against Rome began in Caesarea in AD 66. It spread to Jerusalem, then Galilee. From 66 to 74 there were many wars and insurrections connected to this rebellion.
    3. There will be earthquakes, famines, plagues, and there were. One mentioned in Act 11:28.
    4. There would be great miraculous signs from heaven, and there were. One being Halley's comet over Jerusalem in January AD 66. Just months before the Roman army laid siege.
    5. But before all these things the disciples would be persecuted, brought before kings (like Paul was), dragged into prison (as Peter was).
    6. They would see Jerusalem surrounded by armies (they would see-not you), and they did. The first time was in 66 when the Syrian governor brought his legion to Jerusalem to squelch the fledgling rebellion. He stole treasure from the temple and withdrew, only to suffer a major defeat at the hands of the rebels. The second being the final destruction in 70.
    7. When you see the armies around Jerusalem flee Judea (they should flee Judea- not you).
    8. They will be sent away as captives (they will-not you), and they were. A million died in the rebellion, several hundred thousand were made captive and taken away to many nations. BTW, if this is talking about the kingdom of God established on earth, to whom are they made captive? To what nations are they taken?
    9. There will be strange signs in the sun and moon and stars, And there were. There was a solar eclipse in Palestine in AD 49, and a lunar eclipse on the night the Roman army reached the city. (A dimming of the Sun and moon).
    10. Nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas. As in Rev 17:15, waters and seas are masses of people.
    11 Then everyone would see the Son of Man coming on a cloud with power and great glory. And they did. An army was observed in the clouds over Jerusalem in 66, according to the historian Josephus.
    "I tell you the truth, this generation (the generation he is talking to) will not pass from the scene until all these things have taken place." ALL THESE THINGS. In Rev 19:10, we are told the essence of prophecy is to give clear witness to Jesus. So the prophecy fulfilled gives clear witness to the reality of Jesus as the Son of God.
    I know no one will be persuaded by this information, we believe what we want to believe, and the majority choose to believe a kind of perpetual imminence. The things they were originally told. But scripture is not subject to popularity. It is either true or not true, regardless of who and how many subscribe to it.
    What we originally accepted with no evidence at all, can not be changed without overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
    I agree that the major focus of the Olivet Discourse was on *Jesus' generation,* just as he explicitly said. However, this raised the question in the minds of Jesus' Disciples: If the temple of the Jews was to be destroyed, imminently, then what of the Jewish Hope, the hope of the Age to Come--the Messianic Age? The destruction of the temple would seem to destroy all the hope the Jews had, following their restoration from the Babylonian Captivity!

    And so, Jesus had to questions two answer. One, when would these things take place? What things? Jesus said the temple would indeed fall, along with the city of Jerusalem, and the Jewish People would indeed once more be cast into a long exile--worse than, and longer than, any previous Jewish desolation. But as to the realization of the Jewish Hope, this would still be fulfilled when the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled, at the coming of the Son of Man.

    These things had been outlined in the book of Daniel. Basically, the "times of the Gentiles" was the time that repressed Israel until the time of her fulfillment in God's Kingdom. Before that day, 4 major empires would rise, with the 4th Empire appearing as the 10 nation Antichristian Empire at the end of history. The Son of Man would come and defeat him, allowing Israel's final deliverance in history.

    I'm a futurist, therefore, and agree with some of what P.P.'s believe, that the focus of the Olivet Discourse was on Jesus' time. However, the Hope of Israel was focused, by Jesus, on his 2nd Coming, which takes place at the end of the age, and not before.

  4. #109

    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:


    Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its "SEE-then-FLEE";

    whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".


    The "BoBPs" ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11);

    but the SEQUENCE is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames...


    (one "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events surrounding 70ad; the other "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events occurring in the midst/middle of the [far-future] specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period which time period will START with 2Th2:8a/9a [its BEGINNING ('man of sin be revealed')], continue to unfold until 2Th2:4 [its MIDDLE], and then further onto its 2Th2:8b conclusion [its END]; just like Dan9:27[26] shows BEGINNING, MIDDLE, END; and just like the "Beg-Mid-End" shown in Rev6:2/Rev13:5/Rev19:19,21[<--this 19:19,21 point-in-time, being parallel with Isa24:21-22(23)'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words (@ His 2nd Coming to the earth), followed by a "time-period" when thereafter the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words will be carried out (GWTj)]).

    The 70ad events result in their [that is, Israel] "be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" [to end of trib, Rev11:2]); whereas the Matthew 24 passage shows its "end" to be their being gathered together ['one BY one'] by angels to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM (comp. Matt24:29-31 with Isa27:12-13 [@ "the GREAT trumpet" (not at our Rapture)]).

    Verse 32 of Lk21, where it says, "TILL ALL be fulfilled," necessarily INCLUDES that which v.24 had just said, which was, "and [they] shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled." ['the TIMES of the Gentiles' referring to that which started in 606/605bc, involves Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold," and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" (not "the Church age"; and is DISTINCT from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"]).




    Any viewpoint that disregards timing-clues (-wordings) [Amill-teachings and Preterism do this, big time!] is missing the sense, and coming to entirely different conclusions from what was being conveyed



    [not sure how to see a "preview" of this post, and hoping no EDITING needs to be done to it. (Apart from seeing a preview, I have no way of knowing for sure, I think it's good to go, but we shall see--my eyesight is bad ). My apologies if the post ends up with editing needs that can't be edited! lol]

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:


    Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its "SEE-then-FLEE";

    whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".
    I don't see this. "See-then-flee" seems a little ambiguous, since there are several things that were to be seen. And what is being fled from has to be determined, in relation to the things that just only began.

    I agree that all 3 synoptic versions say the same thing. However, Luke poses the questions as if they can all be answered in Jesus' own generation. He has Jesus being asked when the fall of the temple will take place--not, when will the end of the age take place.

    So for Luke, the beginning signs are the things that precede the fall of the temple. And the end is related to the fall of the temple itself. In that context, the Christians were to flee before the Romans arrived to destroy the temple.

    We do know, from the other two versions, that Jesus also made reference to his 2nd Coming, and to the end of the age. However, Jesus seemed, in all 3 versions, to be using the events of his own generation as sort of a template of expectation for the Church throughout the age. What would happen to Israel in the 1st century can also be looked at with respect to the age as a whole--only, in application to all the nations, and not just Israel.

    Jesus saw how the Disciples viewed the fall of the temple as almost an eschatological event, because they asked about his 2nd Coming and the end of the age in the same breath. However, Jesus indicated the major event in his own generation would be the fall of the temple (70 AD). And this event was what he wanted the Jews of his time to prepare for, by moral corrections and by spiritual alertness to deceivers. The things of the world were highly present in the Israel of Jesus' day, and Jesus wanted his Disciples to be set apart, so that they would not suffer judgment that God designed for rebellious Israel.

    The beginning of birth pains, therefore, was Israel's miscarriage, at a time when they should've become a new-born nation. Instead of turning to Christian spirituality, they turned to legalism, and to inward spiritual corruption. As a result, God sent upon them a new national judgment, when expectations had been that Israel would experience its final eschatological deliverance.

    Those early signs were signs of Israel's corruption, in turning against Jesus' disciples, and in the failure of the world at large to enter into the righteousness Israel had been called to exemplify. Nation would continue to rise against nation. And Rome itself would rise against Israel, after Israel revolted against it.

    What we must not forget is that despite this predicted judgment against Israel, God did *not* revoke the promises He made to Israel. It would take place long after the fall of the temple, and long after the judgment of Jesus' generation. The beginning of a long period of great tribulation would ensure, and lead to, a great exile--worse than any other in Israel's history--far worse than the Babylonian exile of 70 years!

    God will, at the end of this time of exile, restore Israel. And it would take place at the 2nd Coming. The beginning of birth pains precedes the 70 AD event, and only leads to that event. The 70 AD event would lead to the Jewish exile, which in turn would lead to Christ's 2nd Coming.

  6. #111

    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    To make my viewpoint a little more clear (b/c ppl often muddle what they think my viewpoint is)… for the readers...

    I believe only Lk21:12-24 speaks to the 70ad events (with 24b following on from there), and include one set of "see-then-flee"; ...

    "the beginning of birth PANGS" then "START" far-future to the 70ad events, and are not what is taking place now "in this present age [singular]," but will COMMENCE (for Israel [the nations affected also, of course]) FOLLOWING the Rapture of "the Church which is His body" (to/of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains).

    So that, "the beginning of birth PANGS" are the EQUIVALENT of the "SEALS" of Rev6 (with the "INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5]" being the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:8a/9a / Dan9:27a(26), etc]).

  7. #112

    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    NONE of the Olivet Discourse covering "the Church which is His body" nor our Rapture (as its subject material); but all about His Second Coming to the earth, FOR their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (except for those 13 verses in Lk21:12-24a, with pt b following on from there, about the events surrounding 70ad, now past)

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I agree--Antichrist is not mentioned in Dan 2. The only place he is specifically referred to in the OT Scriptures is Dan 7, the Little Horn.

    However, Dan 2 and Dan 7 appear to be related. Both dreams envision 4 kingdoms rising, culminating in an endtime conflict.

    I believe it is *after this conflict* that the Rock grows into a Mountain. Clearly, the Rock is "cut out" at the initial appearance of Christ. And clearly, the Church does become, in a sense, a "mountain," as you suggest. I just don't think that's what the prophecy is talking about.

    Instead of talking about the growth of the Church, the emphasis, in the OT era, is on Israel. The growth of Christianity into a "mountain," therefore," takes place after the Salvation of Israel, at Christ's 2nd Coming.
    But why think that way when it happened with the church as Israel and the Christians are now one fold

    John 10:16
    16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    To make my viewpoint a little more clear (b/c ppl often muddle what they think my viewpoint is) for the readers...

    I believe only Lk21:12-24 speaks to the 70ad events (with 24b following on from there), and include one set of "see-then-flee"; ...

    "the beginning of birth PANGS" then "START" far-future to the 70ad events, and are not what is taking place now "in this present age [singular]," but will COMMENCE (for Israel [the nations affected also, of course]) FOLLOWING the Rapture of "the Church which is His body" (to/of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains).

    So that, "the beginning of birth PANGS" are the EQUIVALENT of the "SEALS" of Rev6 (with the "INITIAL birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5]" being the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" at the START of the 7-yrs [2Th2:8a/9a / Dan9:27a(26), etc]).
    What this tells me is that you have not just one, but two sets of "see-then-flees?" That would pit Matthew and Mark vs. Luke?

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    NONE of the Olivet Discourse covering "the Church which is His body" nor our Rapture (as its subject material); but all about His Second Coming to the earth, FOR their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (except for those 13 verses in Lk21:12-24a, with pt b following on from there, about the events surrounding 70ad, now past)
    Dispensationalism has a problem here, however. This Address of Jesus, focusing on Israel, also includes Messianic Jews, ie Jews who are already following Jesus. This places the focus of Jesus' Discourse on both unbelievers and believers in Israel. Dispensationalists try to divide up the age of the Jews from the age of the Church. But it doesn't work here for me!

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But why think that way when it happened with the church as Israel and the Christians are now one fold

    John 10:16
    16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
    I don't hold to Replacement Theology. The nation of Israel invited the Gentile nations into their new Christian religion. But Israel fell, after years of spiritual decline. New nations picked up the mantle where Israel left off, and we've had hundreds and hundreds of years of successful Christian propagation. In fact, the age of Gentile Christianity now matches the time of Israel's place as God's Chosen People.

    All things equal, we can't expect this Grace to be given to pagan Gentiles, and neglect giving Grace to fallen Jews. In time, I believe Israel will be restored, with a purified Jewish People capable of sustaining their original calling. As well, I think Gentile nations will have to have their Christianity restored, since we've been in decline for many years now.

    As I said, the Rock cut out of a mountain is Christ, who appeared at his 1st Coming. But he does not actually grow into a mountain until he comes a 2nd time. And that's because when Daniel wrote this account down, the emphasis was entirely on Israel. Israel cannot begin to participate in this growth into a mountain until they are restored at the 2nd Coming.

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't hold to Replacement Theology. The nation of Israel invited the Gentile nations into their new Christian religion. But Israel fell, after years of spiritual decline. New nations picked up the mantle where Israel left off, and we've had hundreds and hundreds of years of successful Christian propagation. In fact, the age of Gentile Christianity now matches the time of Israel's place as God's Chosen People.

    All things equal, we can't expect this Grace to be given to pagan Gentiles, and neglect giving Grace to fallen Jews. In time, I believe Israel will be restored, with a purified Jewish People capable of sustaining their original calling. As well, I think Gentile nations will have to have their Christianity restored, since we've been in decline for many years now.

    As I said, the Rock cut out of a mountain is Christ, who appeared at his 1st Coming. But he does not actually grow into a mountain until he comes a 2nd time. And that's because when Daniel wrote this account down, the emphasis was entirely on Israel. Israel cannot begin to participate in this growth into a mountain until they are restored at the 2nd Coming.
    I don't hold to replacement theology either as Jesus said in the verse I quoted the two become one fold not that one replaced the other. Just like the faithful Old Testament gentiles like Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Issiac are apart of this one fold


    If Israel can't participate in the growth of the mountain until the second coming who do you explain the Christian Jews over the last 2 centuries?

    Just trying to understand your line of thought

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I don't hold to replacement theology either as Jesus said in the verse I quoted the two become one fold not that one replaced the other. Just like the faithful Old Testament gentiles like Adam, Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Issiac are apart of this one fold

    One Shephard to rule ( and restore ) them all.

    1Pet 2
    9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    The redeemed from all nations become 1 Holy nation.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    One Shephard to rule ( and restore ) them all.

    1Pet 2
    9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for Gods own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    The redeemed from all nations become 1 Holy nation.
    The perfect verse thanks that says it all

  15. #120

    Re: What if the end isn't near? What if your heart on this is wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Dispensationalism has a problem here, however. This Address of Jesus, focusing on Israel, also includes Messianic Jews, ie Jews who are already following Jesus. This places the focus of Jesus' Discourse on both unbelievers and believers in Israel. Dispensationalists try to divide up the age of the Jews from the age of the Church. But it doesn't work here for me!
    A few things in response to this (no time to elaborate, so just bullet points here ):

    --at the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, He had not yet spoken anything re: our Rapture (this context is all about His Second Coming to the earth FOR their promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, and the time period that will immediately PRECEDE it and LEAD UP [and POINT] TO it)

    --their Q of Him in Matt24:3 was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken with them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (when angels will "REAP"... and the phrase "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" refers to EARTHLY-located thing, of which the EARTHLY MK age is majority part); Note: I do NOT blv as some do that "the pearl of great price" refers to JESUS (that WE/believers "buy"), but rather [to be consistent within the broader context / -interpreting] that Jesus is the "man" who "bought" it (and who also "buyeth" the "field," per two verses prior)

    --at the time of Jesus' resurrection, when "Peter and that other disciple" ran to the sepluchre, it was ONLY said of "that other disciple" (not said of Peter) that "he SAW [the grave-clothes] and BELIEVED" (John 20:9 says, "for AS YET they knew not the scripture, that He must rise again from the dead" [which the LATER 1Cor15:13-17 is saying is NOW a VITAL part of "salvation truth" that we must believe (to have salvation)]; and even after the John 20:9 event/setting, some time later, Jesus "UPBRAIDED the eleven for their UNBELIEF and HARDNESS of heart, because THEY BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen," Mk16:14 [see Lk24:9-11, for example]; etc... So, though they believed Jesus was the Messiah (and "Son of God" etc), they did not yet grasp His death let alone His resurrection (which is a vital aspect of "salvation truth" in this present age)

    --Peter, in Acts 3 (addressing yet-unsaved Jews/men of Israel, v.12, whom he calls "brethren" in v.17) said, in v.21, "...UNTIL the restitution of all things of which God hath spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets of Him from the age"... (referring here to the EARTHLY MK age which will commence to unfold upon the earth upon His "RETURN" there); I believe this is Peter shown to be doing the "[and when thou art converted], STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN" thing, from Lk22:32, which I believe is also a picture of that far-future time period (when "the WISE" of Israel WILL be "strengthened," or come to faith in their Messiah... come into the New Covenant [DURING the trib yrs])]



    For these reasons and more (which I do not have time for, ATM), I disagree with your viewpoint, in this way... IOW, Jesus was using a "proleptic 'you'" (meaning basically, "all those in the future, of the same category"... and that was [in THAT context], those TO WHOM the "promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, was promised).




    [hoping no EDITING was req'd in that ^ ]

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