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Thread: The Death Penalty

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    The Death Penalty

    COST


    Murder is cheaper than life in prison:
    • No. It costs a great deal more.
    • "Elimination of the death penalty [in California] would result in a net savings to the state of at least tens of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of millions of dollars on a statewide basis." (Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California Legislature, 09/9/99)
    • Total cost of death penalty is 38% greater than total cost of life without parole sentences. (Indiana Criminal Law Study Commission, January 10, 2002)
    • Since its return to New York in 1995, $160 million has been spent. The New York Daily News estimates that before the first execution takes place, $238 million will be spent.
    • In addition to the funds required to try death penalty cases, the New York Department of Correctional Services spent $1.3 million to construct New York's 12-inmate death row and pays nearly $300,000 per year to guard the unit. (New York Law Journal, April 30, 2002)
    The Innocent being murdered

    • Over 123 people have been found innocent of the crime they were sentenced to death for.
    • False confessions, mistaken eyewitness accounts, incompetent counsel and jailhouse snitches are often the cause of an innocent person's conviction. While DNA has saved many innocent lives, most crimes do not have DNA that can be tested.
    • New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a Republican, has reiterated his opposition to capital punishment. Bloomberg noted, "The death penalty I've always had a problem with, because too many times in the past you've seen innocent people incarcerated and, tragically, every once in a while they've been executed. And until you can show me that the process never would ever convict somebody that later on we find out was innocent of a crime, murder is murder no matter who does it, and I think we as a society can afford to incarcerate people." (The New York Times, July 31, 2003).
    • In New York, the five men convicted in the Central Park Jogger rape case were found innocent, although they confessed to the crime. At the time of the crime Donald Trump took out a full-page ad to say that he wished New York had the death penalty for these men.



    The Race Factor

    Almost all people accused of death-eligible crimes are impoverished and must rely on court-appointed lawyers to defend them at trial. Minority defendants may be represented by lawyers who are not only incompetent but also openly bigoted. At a minimum, a lack of cultural sensitivity to other ethnic groups may affect their ability to prepare adequately for the case.
    The case of Wilburn Dobbs is one of at least five in Georgia where defense attorneys referred to their own clients during the trial by racial slurs, including "nigger."
    Melvin Wade was sentenced to death in California after being represented by an attorney who used defamatory language against African Americans, including Wade, and who asked that his own client be sentenced to death during the penalty phase of the trial.
    African Americans account for 42 per cent of the USA's current 3,500 death row inmates and about 34 per cent of prisoners executed since 1977. However, the identity of the murder victim that provides the clearest indication that race remains an ingredient of capital sentencing.
    Since 1976, blacks have been six to seven times more likely to be murdered than whites, with the result that blacks and whites are the victims of murder in about equal numbers. Yet, 80 per cent of the more than 1000 people put to death in the USA since 1976 were convicted of crimes involving white victims, compared to the 14 per cent who were convicted of killing blacks.(Death Penalty Information Center.)
    Using data supplied by the New York capital defenders, the Center for Law and Justice reviewed the race of each victim in all first degree murder cases in New York from 1995 to 2001. The center compared the race of the victims in all potentially capital murder cases to the race of the victims in cases where a prosecutor filed a notice of intention to seek the death penalty.
    Although only 32% of first degree murder cases from 1995 to 2001 involved a white victim, 60% of the cases in which a prosecutor sought the death penalty involved a white victim. In contrast, while 43% of the first degree murder cases involved a black victim, only 36% of the cases in which a prosecutor sought the death penalty involved a black victim. And 24% of cases involved a hispanic victim, yet only 14% of the cases where the death penalty was sought involved a hispanic victim.


    The Poor Factor

    How does poverty affect a capital case?

    • Ninety-five percent of defendants charged with capital crimes are indigent and cannot afford their own attorney to represent them. They are forced to use inexperienced, underpaid court-appointed attorneys.
    • US Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg said she has "never seen a death penalty case on appeal before this court in which the defendant was well represented at trial."
    • Some defendants in capital cases have been represented by attorneys who were drunk or sleeping during the trial. George McFarland, sentenced to death in 1992, was represented by an attorney who admitted sleeping during parts of the trial: "I'm 72 years old. I customarily take a short nap in the afternoon." The trial judge commented that: "The Constitution says everyone's entitled to the attorney of their choice. The Constitution does not say the lawyer has to be awake." (Excerpted from Amnesty International)
    Deterrence


    Based on numerous studies, former Attorney General Janet Reno and the American Society of Criminologists agree that the death penalty has no deterrence value.
    Janet Reno stated at a Justice Department news briefing in January 2000 that: "I have inquired for most of my adult life about studies that might show that the death penalty is a deterrent, and I have not seen any research that would substantiate that point
    It takes love to embrace those ones who are weak, and strength to endure the weakness, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

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    Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. (ASV)

    So what we need to know is why does man choose to rebel against God and to disobey Him?

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
    Rom 1:19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
    Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
    Rom 1:25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    (ASV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by th1bill View Post
    Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. (ASV)

    So what we need to know is why does man choose to rebel against God and to disobey Him?

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
    Rom 1:19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
    Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
    Rom 1:25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    (ASV)

    Where in all of that(NT) does it state that Man is to take it into his own hands to pass judgment as in murder ?

    Matt. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    It takes love to embrace those ones who are weak, and strength to endure the weakness, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

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    Quote Originally Posted by always View Post
    Matt. 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

    39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
    This is on an individual level, not a societal level. If we truly could not resist evil, then Hitler would be running the world right now.

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    Remember the guy Michael Fay, who vandalized a car in Singapore, and was severely whiped with a bambo cane as punishment?

    Never heard of him re-committing car-vandalism again in Singapore.

    If the Punishment system fit the crimes, then punishment might be a deterrant.

    Thugs and Hooligans and malicious repeat offenders getting back out on the streets time and time again; with repeat opportunities to continue their crimes against civilized society just shows the horrible failing in the justice system where the criminal gets the pass; and the victims suffer unjustly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by always View Post
    COST


    Murder is cheaper than life in prison:
    • No. It costs a great deal more.
    Governments don't murder; individuals murder.
    Governments execute laws to protect and preserve their societies.

    If the Death Penalty were done correctly and simply; it wouldn't cost very much at all. With all of the stays, and appeals, and extended involvement of the justice system; it costs way more than it should to execute the death penalty upon the guilty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Remember the guy Michael Fay, who vandalized a car in Singapore, and was severely whiped with a bambo cane as punishment?

    Never heard of him re-committing car-vandalism again in Singapore.

    If the Punishment system fit the crimes, then punishment might be a deterrant.

    Thugs and Hooligans and malicious repeat offenders getting back out on the streets time and time again; with repeat opportunities to continue their crimes against civilized society just shows the horrible failing in the justice system where the criminal gets the pass; and the victims suffer unjustly.

    No, if probation and parole were eradicated, and ones knew that if they were sentenced to everyday of 5 years for robbing a store, crime would go down, nothing as heinous as a beating with a bambo cane would be necessary

    serial killers, and killers because of emotional situations or not deterred by the death penalty. They need (serial killers) to be locked up for life.

    Murder is Murder, done by individuals that make of the government, or individuals period.
    It takes love to embrace those ones who are weak, and strength to endure the weakness, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

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    Romans 13 clearly justifies the death penalty Biblicaly. Further, anyone who sufferes the ultimate penalty is permanently deterred from killing again. Also, I'm not buying much of the statistics posted. And for the record, I am personally against the death penalty in that I could never sentence a person to death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenitent View Post
    Romans 13 clearly justifies the death penalty Biblicaly. Further, anyone who sufferes the ultimate penalty is permanently deterred from killing again. Also, I'm not buying much of the statistics posted. And for the record, I am personally against the death penalty in that I could never sentence a person to death.

    You don't have to buy them, that doesn't make them not an accurate asessment.

    Romans 13

    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    keywords "ordained of God"
    It takes love to embrace those ones who are weak, and strength to endure the weakness, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me

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    Quote Originally Posted by always View Post
    You don't have to buy them, that doesn't make them not an accurate asessment.

    Romans 13

    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    keywords "ordained of God"
    Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
    Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
    Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
    Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.
    Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

    Please not the red and particularly the blue highlighted portions. You are of course correct about placing emphases on ordained by God but by the same token you cannot place a popular spin on the Word of God. As for this New Testament, Old Testament argument you appear to be falling into, forget it. There is only one God and that same God wrote both Testaments. The New Testament does not change one single thing and is in fact, largely, a commentary on the Old Testament. It is impossible to understand the New Testament without reading the Old.

    The major change that people incorrectly clamor about is the change from salvation by the Law and salvation by Grace. No one, not one single man has been saved by the Law, not even Abraham. The Law is and always has been the model that we are to pursue and when we find out just how sorry we are then Grace can save us.

    Now, folks have been making foolish arguments in an attempt to abolish the death penalty for much longer than I have been alive and the truth has never changed and will never change no matter how many millions get behind the movement. Truth is the Word of God and all else is relativism and that is, in every form, sin against God.

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    There are crimes so heinous putting a person to death is something I would support.
    I would rather see all the money to jail them and money that goes to appeal after appeal be spent on teaching people to avoid sex and helping those who didn't and who had the child....helping them place it in HOME rather than a utility closet to die...To quote Rev Huckabee "There's a real difference between the process of adjudication, where a person is deemed guilty after a thorough judicial process and is put to death by all of us, as citizens, under a law, as opposed to an individual making a decision to terminate a life that has never been deemed guilty because the life never was given a chance to even exist… That’s the fundamental difference" I think the same principle some use ..you know the one....the child is God's so it will be with God so let abortion be a choice....can be applied to the people who kill and end up on death row...if they are innocent they will be with the Lord ..if they are His they will repent (The Holy Spirit can beat a time set for execution) before they are executed. So render unto Caesar

    I never heard God say he was agaist the death penalty but He did say one should not shed innocent blood....In fact He was innocent and died a death penalty so we could live eternally.....We all die at some point some kill and rape and they get caught.....and are put to death..

    Oh well enough on that I care about innocent blood not all the evil lawless people ..like those serial killers and such..THOUGH I pray they repent
    The story of Job teaches us that the Devil has to be given permission to attack us. So if God is allowing the attack surely He's planning our victory. He would not allow us to be in a battle we could not win.! God looks for hand-picked people He can send into difficult environments, that He might be glorified. He makes all things "work together for good" (Ro 8:28) so don't be intimidated. Just keep your eyes open and see what God is up to!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    This is on an individual level, not a societal level. If we truly could not resist evil, then Hitler would be running the world right now.
    If something is a sin on the individual level, is it not also a sin at a societal level? Can we say that adultery is a sin at the individual level, and yet then say that if Society legalizes adultery it is no longer a sin? What about robbery? It is a sin for an individual to steal, is it no a sin for the government to steal money from the people?

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    It really doesn't matter what the American Society of Criminologists or anyone else has to say about this matter. What's important here is what does God say? Whether the death penalty deters or not doesn't matter - the issue is justice must be done - if I deprive someone of his life, I forfeit my own.

    If a person is put to death for a crime he confesses to, but did not commit - remember what David did to the man who claimed to have killed Saul.
    2Sa 1:15, 16 And David called one of the young men, and said, Go near, and fall upon him. And he smote him that he died.
    And David said unto him, Thy blood be upon thy head; for thy mouth hath testified against thee, saying, I have slain the LORD'S anointed.

  14. #14
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    Ugh, this is what happens when people "google" to research something.....


    Unfortunately, the majority of the information listed in the OP is false or misleading. But that's what happens when go to to websites, particularly ones that are biased against the death penalty. You'll get skewed information.

    The death penalty is a biblical concept. Thus, the "factors" listed in the initial post are irrelevant.

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    It can be solved quite easily, those that are sentenced to death... kill them, immediately. Move on to the next one sentenced to death and the next and the next and before long two things are gonna happen;

    1. All the criminals deserving of death will be dead.

    2. Then there will be a deterrent in our society cause criminals will face the reality that crime kills.... them.

    God has authorized us to kill the evil doer, why be afraid to be obedient to the will of God?

    It's because we are afraid of being obedient to God is why criminals have no fear of us.
    Slug1--out

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