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Thread: Pagan Holiday?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanate View Post
    uh, The angels never celebrated the birth of anyone. They celebrate the arrival of Messiah, not his birth.
    uh,
    Luke 2

    10-But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11-for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
    I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
    - Mahatma Gandhi




  2. #62
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    What is the difference between "arrival" and "birth" when we are talking about Jesus? Is there a difference between his "arrival" and "birth" in a physical sense? I mean, I guess "arrival" could be in utero and "birth" could be birth, but what's the point?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    This is what you posted on there:



    Only problem is you left out that last bit of scripture in verse 31...it went on to say this: for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

    Obviously no one is burning their children alive in celebration of Christmas. The pagans DID sacrifice their babies and children by throwing them alive into the fire...they had wild sexual orgies too when worshiping their pagan gods....no one worships God in this fashion today!

    Back when the Lord gave this warning, He certainly had good reason too as we read on about how the Hebrews were indeed corrupted by the pagan's gods and they did start worshiping these gods and sacrificing their own children to them in fire.

    This obviously has nothing to do with how we celebrate Christmas now.

    God bless
    "For even" is just a mention/example of one of their practices.... it doesn't negate the prior instructions in the verses to not learn the way of the pagans and how they serve their gods and to do the same for Him. He's not saying that burning your children is the only thing you have to abstain from. He mentions "every" abomination so He's obviously refering to more than one thing.
    Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
    -Jeremiah 6:16

    Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

  4. #64
    Emanate Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Vhayes View Post
    uh,
    Luke 2

    10-But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11-for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

    I see no birthday celebration mentioned.

  5. #65
    Emanate Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by RabbiKnife View Post
    What is the difference between "arrival" and "birth" when we are talking about Jesus? Is there a difference between his "arrival" and "birth" in a physical sense? I mean, I guess "arrival" could be in utero and "birth" could be birth, but what's the point?

    The point is there is no birthday celebration in Scripture, ever. Equating "born" to "celebrating a birthday" is quite a stretch.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhayes View Post
    Deut 12



    I think the asnswer is the first and last verses of the same chapter:
    1-"These are the statutes and the judgments which you shall carefully observe in the land which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you to possess as long as you live on the earth.

    32-"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.

    I know you will disagree with my view and that's fine. To me, I have no other God, not a Christmas tree, not Santa Claus, not evergreen branches. They are not bringing honor to pagans, they are bringing remembrance to the birth of the Christ child and with that remembrance, thankfulness and honor.

    The verses you have quoted are specific to the nation Israel - how else can you not add or take away?

    Thanks, DifferentAngle - as I said I know we will disagree here. Just giving you my thoughts on the whole thing.
    V
    Well, you're right, we don't agree but that's okay, I appreciate you're feedback.

    To me, I have no other God, not a Christmas tree, not Santa Claus, not evergreen branches.
    I don't believe the pagans ever thought those things were gods themselves, they were symbols used in the worship of their gods. They were "how" the nations served their gods... "How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise."

    They are not bringing honor to pagans, they are bringing remembrance to the birth of the Christ child and with that remembrance, thankfulness and honor.
    How does a decorated evergreen tree(pagan practice) and santa(a lie told to children) bring honor and remembrance to His birth?

    The verses you have quoted are specific to the nation Israel - how else can you not add or take away?
    I believe that He has one law/instruction for all...

    Num 15:16One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

    1Jo 5:2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
    -Jeremiah 6:16

    Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanate View Post
    The point is there is no birthday celebration in Scripture, ever. Equating "born" to "celebrating a birthday" is quite a stretch.
    I think the only mention of birthday celebrations in Scriptures is those of two pagan kings and then possibly Jobs children who were celebrating "each his own day" right before they were destroyed.
    Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
    -Jeremiah 6:16

    Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

  8. #68
    A vast amount of the things we do in Christianity had its start in pagan things, why do we get so wound up about Christmas being pagan?

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikebr View Post
    A vast amount of the things we do in Christianity had its start in pagan things, why do we get so wound up about Christmas being pagan?
    What do you think of what His Word says?

    Duet 12:29 When YHWH thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

    30
    Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.


    31 Thou shalt not do so unto YHWH thy God: for every abomination to YHWH, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods;
    Thus says YHWH, "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; And you will find rest for your souls.
    -Jeremiah 6:16

    Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. - Matthew 11:29

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by leebee View Post
    Wow, so much information here from both sides of the spectrum. I'm seeing great arguments from each direction and I've been back and forth on what is acctually right or wrong regarding this, "whether to celebrate Christmas" issue since I started reading this thread. ...
    My question is:----- How does one that is relatively young in Christ, who's heart is neck deep in wanting to abide by the Lord's word of truth make the determination here? ------This is where good ol' Ben Stein says: "Anyone, anyone....".... Ok just tryin' to lighten things up a little!

    God bless you all, because all this information is priceless. Thank you.
    Hi leebee.

    I don't mean to complicate matters more, but essentially from a Biblical perspective it often comes down to what one decides about certain passages in the Scriptures regarding worship.

    One of the reforming aspects of the Protestant Reformation that initially strongly influenced Reformed, Presbyterian, Puritan, Baptist, and Calvinistic Methodist Christians, and which somewhat distinguished them from certain other Protestant reformers like the Lutherans and Episcopalians was what is termed the regulative principle of worship (wiki) (see also here (from a Puritan perspective), here, here (a "regulative" condemnation of Christmas), and here (see esp. concluding remarks)). In other words, how much and to what extent should Christian Scripture be determinative in guiding us toward proper worship of God?

    Many Anglicans, Lutherans, and non-Calvinistic Baptists and Methodists, along with much of the rest of Protestantism (except for certain pockets aligned with the Restoration Movement) favour instead what is termed the normative principle of worship (wiki) (see also here, here, here (a Charismatic perspective), here and here).

    To answer your question regarding those young Christians struggling to honour God in a proper determination of how best to worship Him, those Christians appropriately restricting their worship to only what one finds within the pages of Scripture have determined a good thing, but those Christians appropriately finding freedom in Christ to worship God in spirit and in truth through God-inspired creativity also do a good thing. Both groups, as are all Christians, are faced with natural challenges regarding loving the LORD our God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our strength, with all our mind, and our neighbor as ourselves (see Luke 10:27). The latter group, however, are faced with a dilemma of divinely written authorization for their practice. They often are very ardent and sincere in their worship of God, but written authorization of the forms it takes distinct from literal Scripture must be just as creatively formulated as the new forms of their worship. Essentially, they must often adapt Scripture or even what they consider 'new revelation' to fit with extra-Biblical aspects of worship.

    This can be both marvelously inventive and extremely dangerous. For example, it has been used to include such things as the pipe organ and the electric guitar in worship services, or the complex construction of a modern Church calendar that includes Christmas celebration; but it has also been used to develop such things as the Book of Mormon or various cultic practices (like the former Roman Catholic practice of buying indulgences, or Jim Jones' descent from mainline Christianity (Church of Christ (Disciples of Christ)) into mass suicide as a 'directive of God').

  11. #71
    kenrank Guest
    Regardless of what anyone does or doesn't do...there are a few scriptural facts related to Christmas. First, December 25th is not in scripture...this means it comes from tradition, man, and not God. Second, Mizzdy wrote out a good post that shows Messiah was most likely born around the Feast of Sukkot, Tabernacles. Lastly, history and obscure modern culture indicates that the late December holiday season is directly linked to the winter solstice. It is extremely likely, that converted pagans coming into Christianity did not want to part with these important family observances, so they simply re-named them and gave them a different meaning. Again, this then is passed down tradition of man...not a command of God.

    I don't share this to upset anyone's holiday plans...but we shouldn't lie to ourselves either and try to make December 25th something it is not. We are then too, guilty of the same passing of a non-scriptural tradition.

    To those of you who celebrate it...I sincerely hope the holiday is a blessing for you and your family. For the rest of us....just send coal I guess!

    Peace.
    Ken

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by diffangle View Post
    What do you think of what His Word says?

    Duet 12:29 When YHWH thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land;

    30
    Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.


    31 Thou shalt not do so unto YHWH thy God: for every abomination to YHWH, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods;

    Heck, I don't know. Is it saying that we shouldn't do things like the world does them?

  13. #73
    Emanate Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by mikebr View Post
    A vast amount of the things we do in Christianity had its start in pagan things, why do we get so wound up about Christmas being pagan?

    Very interesting observation

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by mikebr View Post
    A vast amount of the things we do in Christianity had its start in pagan things, why do we get so wound up about Christmas being pagan?
    Because some Christians get so wound up when stores wouldnt say Merry Christmas, they say Happy Holidays instead. Some would boycott the stores! Does anyone remember this, I live in the midwest so people were seriously up in arms over this issue a couple years ago.

    Christmas was never Christian in the first place and we have no right claiming the holiday as our own.

    I accept it for what it is, a good time to be around good friends, good family, and good food (no gluttony lol). Nothing more. Its not a religious holiday to me anway.

  15. #75
    kenrank Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by cindylou View Post
    Because some Christians get so wound up when stores wouldnt say Merry Christmas, they say Happy Holidays instead. Some would boycott the stores! Does anyone remember this, I live in the midwest so people were seriously up in arms over this issue a couple years ago.

    Christmas was never Christian in the first place and we have no right claiming the holiday as our own.

    I accept it for what it is, a good time to be around good friends, good family, and good food (no gluttony lol). Nothing more. Its not a religious holiday to me anway.
    You know, it's funny CindyLou (hello, btw)....while I don't look at Christmas as scriptural to any degree, and truly don't care if the local court house puts up a tree or not, I stand against those who stand against it. Not because I support it, but because they stand against it because THEY, while lacking understanding, are against YHWH in taking that stand. Kind of like having "in God we trust" on our currency. I don't care if "God" is on our money...I actually think it to be a conflict of interest of sorts. (Plus, "God" isn't his name anyway) But because those who stand against it generally do so thinking they are standing against OUR God...I stand against them.

    Peace.
    Ken

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