Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 20

Thread: Was Jesus the Jewish Messiah?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Southland
    Posts
    538

    Was Jesus the Jewish Messiah?

    I have no doubt that Jesus was sent by God to save us from our sins (through repentance) - thus he was our Messiah

    However, I was talking with a Jewish friend, and he points out that Jesus did not fulfill the prophesized actions of the Jewish messiah. I did not really have an answer to his assertions since I just started reading the Bible for the first time (in whole). Can you please help me counter his argument?

    He notes the following:
    1.) Jews believe that the coming of the Messiah was to be a one-time event. Jesus, on the other hand, will return (thus, 2 events)

    2.) The Jewish Messiah is to compel the people to follow the Torah. Jesus produces a completely new law (I countered by saying that Jesus was not here to REPLACE the law but to FULFILL it and lead us to follow it in the correct manner)

    3.) The Jewish Messiah is to rebuild the Temple - Jesus did not do this, and it was impossible for him to do this given that the Second Temple was standing during his lifetime

    4.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to reign as King

    5.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews from exile. The Jews were not exiled during Jesus' time. And if he does come back, wouldn't the Israelis (Jews) have to be exiled FIRST for him to come back...thus, they must be exiled from the State of Israel before Jesus can come back and return them from exile???

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    I have no doubt that Jesus was sent by God to save us from our sins (through repentance) - thus he was our Messiah

    However, I was talking with a Jewish friend, and he points out that Jesus did not fulfill the prophesized actions of the Jewish messiah. I did not really have an answer to his assertions since I just started reading the Bible for the first time (in whole). Can you please help me counter his argument?

    He notes the following:
    1.) Jews believe that the coming of the Messiah was to be a one-time event. Jesus, on the other hand, will return (thus, 2 events)

    2.) The Jewish Messiah is to compel the people to follow the Torah. Jesus produces a completely new law (I countered by saying that Jesus was not here to REPLACE the law but to FULFILL it and lead us to follow it in the correct manner)

    3.) The Jewish Messiah is to rebuild the Temple - Jesus did not do this, and it was impossible for him to do this given that the Second Temple was standing during his lifetime

    4.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to reign as King

    5.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews from exile. The Jews were not exiled during Jesus' time. And if he does come back, wouldn't the Israelis (Jews) have to be exiled FIRST for him to come back...thus, they must be exiled from the State of Israel before Jesus can come back and return them from exile???
    Actually, answer99, the jews during the time of Christ knew who he was! Look at John 3:1
    1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    Notice it says "we know". God had blinded these men so that they could not see the truth. Ref Matt 13:10 as to why Christ spoke in parables.

    Yes Christ, magnified the law by keeping it spiritually as well as physically. The prophesied time that Christ was to come
    (1st and 2nd) was misunderstood by the Jews because a veil was set over them and the whole house of Israel. As a result they did not understand the plan of God.

    The Jews could not see by which authority Christ spoke, therefore, rejecting him.

    The old testament clearly shows that Christ, the Messiah would come and be crucified, then come again at an appointed time that even the angels in heaven do not know.

    Hope this helps...Short but might give you some things to look up. j.

  3. #3
    The list of things you have posted was popularized by Maimonides, AKA "Rambam". A Rabbi\scholar of the middle ages. They come from some of his debates with Christians.

    The first thing you need to understand in dealing with anyone following Judaism is that their standard of faith and practice is not The OT directly, it is instead the Talmud, collection of writings of rabbinic Judaism which purports to be the "oral law" handed down from moses along with the written law.

    What it is supposed o be is the commentary on the Torah, explaining what it means.

    So you can point to anything you want to in the OT and claim it means this or that, but their rabbi and the Talmud will tell them it means something different.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    He notes the following:
    1.) Jews believe that the coming of the Messiah was to be a one-time event. Jesus, on the other hand, will return (thus, 2 events)
    Well... most Christians do this... (I, on the other hand, believe it was a single series of events.)

    2.) The Jewish Messiah is to compel the people to follow the Torah. Jesus produces a completely new law (I countered by saying that Jesus was not here to REPLACE the law but to FULFILL it and lead us to follow it in the correct manner)
    Matthew 8:4 "See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them."

    Jesus did command the Jews to follow the Law. In one particular case, He told the people to do as the Pharisees said (i.e., follow the Laws of the Torah), but not as they acted (because the Pharisees were hypocrites). However, He also taught that He would be the Law's ultimate fulfillment, and that mankind was not capable of following the Law, which required Christ to be our sacrifice.

    3.) The Jewish Messiah is to rebuild the Temple - Jesus did not do this, and it was impossible for him to do this given that the Second Temple was standing during his lifetime
    Jesus is our temple, and He opened the way to the heavenly tabernacle, the one that the earthly temples were merely shadows of.

    4.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to reign as King
    Jesus reigns as King, and has been since He ascended to heaven.

    5.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews from exile. The Jews were not exiled during Jesus' time. And if he does come back, wouldn't the Israelis (Jews) have to be exiled FIRST for him to come back...thus, they must be exiled from the State of Israel before Jesus can come back and return them from exile???
    The Book of Daniel declares that the end would coincide with the scattering of the Jewish people (Daniel 12:7), not their recollection. Christ Himself prophesied this (Luke 21:24). And it did indeed happen in the timeframe He said it would (the fulfillment was in 70 AD, well within Christ's "this generation" timeframe; Luke 21:32).

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Posts
    1,584
    You need to realize that anyone who is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit cannot understand the Bible except on the most superficial level.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    2,652
    Blog Entries
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post

    4.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to reign as King
    Maybe this will give you a place to start.

    The Jewish people of Jesus' day were waiting for a King - but a King such as one that would rule physically, on earth. They didn't look for or think of anything else. When Jesus came, He came speaking of things spiritual, and gave us a way to be reborn again spiritually. Nothing physical or political, even according to the ways of the Jews of the time. We hope and wait for the promise that our bodies too will be redeemed, just as God has promised and done through His Son.

    Because the Jewish leaders did not see a need for spiritual redemption but for a physcial and earthly ruler, they didn't see Christ for who He was and still is - the Messiah and redeemer of not only the Jewish people, Israel, but the entire world.
    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
    Not second or third, but first.
    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
    when He is the source of all hope,
    when His love is received and freely given,
    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
    will all other things be added unto to you.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    383
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    I have no doubt that Jesus was sent by God to save us from our sins (through repentance) - thus he was our Messiah

    However, I was talking with a Jewish friend, and he points out that Jesus did not fulfill the prophesized actions of the Jewish messiah. I did not really have an answer to his assertions since I just started reading the Bible for the first time (in whole). Can you please help me counter his argument?

    He notes the following:
    1.) Jews believe that the coming of the Messiah was to be a one-time event. Jesus, on the other hand, will return (thus, 2 events)

    2.) The Jewish Messiah is to compel the people to follow the Torah. Jesus produces a completely new law (I countered by saying that Jesus was not here to REPLACE the law but to FULFILL it and lead us to follow it in the correct manner)

    3.) The Jewish Messiah is to rebuild the Temple - Jesus did not do this, and it was impossible for him to do this given that the Second Temple was standing during his lifetime

    4.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to reign as King

    5.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews from exile. The Jews were not exiled during Jesus' time. And if he does come back, wouldn't the Israelis (Jews) have to be exiled FIRST for him to come back...thus, they must be exiled from the State of Israel before Jesus can come back and return them from exile???
    First, I would ask the person what those particular 5 points are based on.

    One thing that the Gospels say is that they emphasize how the Jews were blinded to the fact that the Messiah must suffer first, and then enter into glory. So I would go through the Scriptures that deal with the Messiah's suffering.

    Psalm 22 is a perfect place to start. It goes through the full spectrum of His suffering and his glorification.

    Psalm 18 is another great passage.

    Isaiah 52-53 emphasizes the suffering of one who would take the punishment for Israel's covenant unfaithfulness; one dying in place of the whole nation.

    The story of Abraham sacrificing his son has many parallels with the story of Christ. I even know of one Jewish family who accepted Christ due to hearing this story explained - Abraham offers up his son; his son carries the wood himself; Abraham goes to sacrifice his son, yet his son lives; the sacrifice is done on top of a hill; etc.

    The book of Hebrews is a wonderful apologetic for Jews. Read that book several times through. It will help you a lot.

    I hope that helps a little.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Posts
    559
    A difficult and complex topic/question.

    Take note of post #3.

    As I understand it, rabbinical interpretation of Messianic verses changed radically as Christianity took root and spread.

    For instance, Isaiah 53, which was considered a Messianic chapter, was later described by the rabbis as referring not to the Messiah, but to Israel...

    This has everything to do with what Paul referred to as the Jews being blinded spiritually for a season.

    But God's graciousness is such that He still sees Jews come to recognize Jesus as Messiah--as He did for me.

    Perhaps you could find an apologetics website that refutes the rabbis for the sake of non-believeing Jews. (If I weren't so lazy, I'd find one for you!)

    Press on.
    Phl 4:11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    The Southland
    Posts
    538
    Great answers so far, guys! Really helped me out and sent me down many paths in search of further answers

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,298
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    1.) Jews believe that the coming of the Messiah was to be a one-time event. Jesus, on the other hand, will return (thus, 2 events)

    4.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to reign as King
    For Israel it will be a one time event. Do they think He has come? No they don't. When He returns as King of Kings as they expect and the disciples repeatedly asked, it will be the first time as such. For Jesus said 'NOW is my kingdom not of this world'. Not my kingdom is not of this world.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    2.) The Jewish Messiah is to compel the people to follow the Torah. Jesus produces a completely new law (I countered by saying that Jesus was not here to REPLACE the law but to FULFILL it and lead us to follow it in the correct manner)
    That's from the Talmud not the OT, as pointed out already. All scripture points to Christ, not a written law.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    3.) The Jewish Messiah is to rebuild the Temple - Jesus did not do this, and it was impossible for him to do this given that the Second Temple was standing during his lifetime
    He rebuilt it (his body - which we are) in 3 days actually. There is also a temple in the 1000 year reign, possible built before. There's debate here. Point is, when He returns for the first time in the eyes of Israel, there will be another temple.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    5.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews from exile. The Jews were not exiled during Jesus' time. And if he does come back, wouldn't the Israelis (Jews) have to be exiled FIRST for him to come back...thus, they must be exiled from the State of Israel before Jesus can come back and return them from exile???
    No. Why would he think this?
    Here I am!....hey, where is everybody???
    The tribes were gathered, but rejected their King. When he returns they will be gathered. No scripture says He returns then gathers. Not that I am aware of. The LORD gathers them for the return of their Lord. Notice the case sensitive LORD and Lord? That's two different Hebrew words. Look up "gather" in the prophets and see it is the LORD that gathers.


    With us, the FATHER gave His Son for us to believe in. It is the Fathers will, plan, and work done through the Son.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    32,546
    Blog Entries
    4
    I would suggest reading and studying about Joseph. Especially what he does with his brethren upon their second return. It's a good 'picture' of Messiah.

    The extent of the grace of God is truely amazing.

  12. #12
    bosco Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Benaiah View Post
    The list of things you have posted was popularized by Maimonides, AKA "Rambam". A Rabbi\scholar of the middle ages. They come from some of his debates with Christians.

    The first thing you need to understand in dealing with anyone following Judaism is that their standard of faith and practice is not The OT directly, it is instead the Talmud, collection of writings of rabbinic Judaism which purports to be the "oral law" handed down from moses along with the written law.

    What it is supposed o be is the commentary on the Torah, explaining what it means.

    So you can point to anything you want to in the OT and claim it means this or that, but their rabbi and the Talmud will tell them it means something different.
    I have read all the answers you have gotten, and this one seems to nail it down the best. Look at it like this, how can you argue/debate/discuss God with a Muslim when his source of understanding is the Koran? You use a bible, he uses the Koran, you will do nothing but argue all day. It is the same with a modern Jew. While they hold Torah up in great respect and with great weight, the Talmud is indeed the source of rabbinic understanding. So to penetrate one of Judah (Jew is the shortened form of Judah) you need to start at the Talmud. Ask if what is written in the Talmud trumps Torah. If they say yes, you have two choices. Show them (many here can help with this) where Torah states not to add ANYTHING to it and see where the chips fall, or move on and keep them in prayer.

    If however they say the Torah (first 5 books of the bible) or the Tanach, (the entire OT) is the final word over Talmud, then there are plenty of Messiah related sources you can use to show that Yahshua is indeed their Messiah just as much as he is yours.

    But I would ask that question first and if he says the Tanach (OT) is God's final authority, come back and we can give you 20-30 verses from the OT that are fullfilled in the NT by Christ.

    Bosco

  13. #13
    bosco Guest
    One more thing, is this Jewish person knowledgeable in the ways of scripture, or more of a Jew by name and living more of a secular life? If the former, ask them to read Revelation. Most knolwedgable Jews look at Revelation, minus the references to Christ, as being a Jewish book we stole. (not steal in a literal sense) Revelation is full of Hebrew idioms and phrases that most Christians don't even catch, but Jews do. Sometimes THEY don't realize how Jewish our faith really is.

    The gospel of John is similar in it's Hebrew idiom usage.

    Bosco

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    Posts
    1,584
    Quote Originally Posted by bosco View Post
    One more thing, is this Jewish person knowledgeable in the ways of scripture, or more of a Jew by name and living more of a secular life? If the former, ask them to read Revelation. Most knolwedgable Jews look at Revelation, minus the references to Christ, as being a Jewish book we stole. (not steal in a literal sense) Revelation is full of Hebrew idioms and phrases that most Christians don't even catch, but Jews do. Sometimes THEY don't realize how Jewish our faith really is.

    The gospel of John is similar in it's Hebrew idiom usage.

    Bosco
    Good point on Revelation. Years of Bible study have convinced me that it takes extensive study of the OT to have even a chance of understanding the book of Revelation.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,818
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnswer99 View Post
    1.) Jews believe that the coming of the Messiah was to be a one-time event. Jesus, on the other hand, will return (thus, 2 events)
    What comes immediately to mind is when Jesus came riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, which Zechariah prophesied. Zechariah 9:9

    2.) The Jewish Messiah is to compel the people to follow the Torah. Jesus produces a completely new law (I countered by saying that Jesus was not here to REPLACE the law but to FULFILL it and lead us to follow it in the correct manner)
    At the time of Jesus, certain sects of Judaism taught that if the nation would obey Torah perfectly for at least one day, the Messiah would come. It is interesting to note that the OT contains various passages which describe a call to repentance to precede the coming of the Messiah.

    When John the Baptist was preaching and baptizing, the Pharisees asked him if he was Elijah, thinking that Elijah had come to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers, as Malachi predicted. The Jews living in Jesus' day were expecting a prophet to come before the Messiah to call the people to repentance in anticipation of the coming of the messiah.

    When Jesus came, he authenticated and validated John's ministry to call the people to repentance, even allowing himself to be baptized, as he says, "to fulfill ALL righteousness."

    During his dialog with the woman at the well, Jesus corrected the woman, telling her that Jerusalem was the proper and designated place of worship, but then went on to say that God is seeking those who will worship him in spirit and in truth. In this way Jesus highlights the fact that the Messiah will not "compel" the Jews to keep Torah, but they will keep Torah freely, in faith, and in hope, worshiping God in spirit and in truth.

    3.) The Jewish Messiah is to rebuild the Temple - Jesus did not do this, and it was impossible for him to do this given that the Second Temple was standing during his lifetime
    The prophets say that the Messiah will come to the Temple and enter through the East Gate, which is to remain locked. Only the true Messiah will be able to enter that way. Ezekiel 44.

    Obviously, this necessitates that the Temple already exist before the coming of Messiah. If the Messiah rebuilds the temple, he will send his workers on ahead of him to accomplish his wishes.

    4.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to reign as King
    Jesus has been anointed as King, he came into Jerusalem as king. But he did not take his position as king because right now he is "taking captivity captive." In the traditions of antiquity, the king would do battle with his enemies and when he returned his men would march the captives through the city in triumph. The Messiah is doing battle right now, though we can't see it. That is, he is winning the hearts and minds of all kinds of people and down through the ages until one day, he will bring his captives into the city in triumph. Whether this takes place on earth or in heaven we can debate. But Jesus will rule over the nation of Israel, physically and personally when he returns.

    5.) The Jewish Messiah is supposed to return the Jews from exile. The Jews were not exiled during Jesus' time. And if he does come back, wouldn't the Israelis (Jews) have to be exiled FIRST for him to come back...thus, they must be exiled from the State of Israel before Jesus can come back and return them from exile???
    The Jews went into exile in the Jewish wars 66-70AD and again in 165?AD after the Bar Kochba revolt. The Jews began the return in the early 20th century which culminated in the war against the Arabs and the establishment of the state of Israel. This was to fulfill what Jesus' predicted that after the Great Tribulation, God would send for his people and bring them back to the land.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Jewish Faith and beliefs on messiah
    By lendtay in forum Apologetics and Evangelism
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Oct 24th 2008, 05:22 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •