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Thread: Why are atheists so stubborn ?

  1. #1
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    Why are atheists so stubborn ?

    I use three analogies to point out how evolution and the Big Bang are very unlikely, but it doesn't work. Is it because atheists don't WANT to believe?

    1. The watch and the watchmaker.

    2. A tornado going through a junk yard and assembling a fully operational 747.

    3. The chance of only eight out of the more than 300 messianic prophecies coming to pass by accident is like covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep and marking one with an "X" and mixing them up and having a blindfolded man walk around and picking out the right silver dollar.

    The fact that none of these analogies work reinforces my view is that people become atheists because they WANT to, not because of "lack of evidence". If I'm wrong please correct me and show why this form of reasoning falls on deaf ears.

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    What part of those arguments denies the 'big bang'?
    "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
    -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

    "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

    Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

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    The first two analogies simply show how improbable it is that the Universe came about without a Creator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherry W View Post
    The first two analogies simply show how improbable it is that the Universe came about without a Creator.
    I think Revinius is implying that God used the Big Bang as his method for getting us started.

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    I can see how that is possible.

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    Well the big bang did happen though...which for me proves a Creator started it all. That the universe had a beginning...people used to believe it always just existed. For anything to have a beginning that says alot actually!

    You are trying to tell them to ignore evidence that is in their face in order to accept God. We really don't have to do that. They don't have to reject one thing in order to accept another thing (God). There are many Christians that believe evolution happened too...and to a degree it did. Micro evolution is small changes in the same thing...such as the flu virus changes every year so they have to make vaccines with the change or the vaccines won't work against it. Its still the flu bug though no matter how many times it 'evolves' though. Marco evolution on the other hand is the belief something changed so much it became something else entirely which is what Darwin taught.

    While I agree that something didn't come from nothing and created itself into something so elaborate...atheist are many times what I call science worshipers...Science is their religion. To them they have the evidence and we have none (from their point of view). I wouldn't even bring up evolution actually...as I said many Christians believe this is how God did it. Make it a non-issue and you might have better luck.

    Oh and you are right...many atheist just don't want to believe.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    You make a good point. The types of atheists who don't want to believe are the ones I get angry at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherry W View Post
    You make a good point. The types of atheists who don't want to believe are the ones I get angry at.
    Well getting angry at them though doesn't make a good witness. The bible tells us God will judge those that aren't believers...so let Him do that. Jesus says to shake the dust off your feet from those that don't want to hear the message.

    Matthew 10
    14 If any household or town refuses to welcome you or listen to your message, shake its dust from your feet as you leave. 15 I tell you the truth, the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah will be better off than such a town on the judgment day


    It also says to not cast your pearl before swines.

    Matthew 7:6
    ďDonít waste what is holy on people who are unholy. Donít throw your pearls to pigs! They will trample the pearls, then turn and attack you.


    So if they don't want to hear it, quit talking to them. Find those that want to hear the gospel.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherry W View Post
    I use three analogies to point out how evolution and the Big Bang are very unlikely, but it doesn't work. Is it because atheists don't WANT to believe?

    1. The watch and the watchmaker.

    2. A tornado going through a junk yard and assembling a fully operational 747.

    3. The chance of only eight out of the more than 300 messianic prophecies coming to pass by accident is like covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep and marking one with an "X" and mixing them up and having a blindfolded man walk around and picking out the right silver dollar.

    The fact that none of these analogies work reinforces my view is that people become atheists because they WANT to, not because of "lack of evidence". If I'm wrong please correct me and show why this form of reasoning falls on deaf ears.
    Yes, Paul the Apostle argues that belief is a matter of the will in Romans the first chapter. He says that atheists suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherry W View Post
    You make a good point. The types of atheists who don't want to believe are the ones I get angry at.
    The only real issue that a Christian can really smash heads with an atheist (one we can all agree is uncompromisable) is whether the processes atheist's claim are the origin of life are down to RANDOM chance with natural selection OR whether such processes are GUIDED by God. It is a philosophical point moreso than an atheistic one. If any scientist tries to say: "evolution disproves God" then he is making a very unscientific claim (and imho opinion should go back to being a 1st year undergrad and be taught what science is).

    In the end, science is a study of process, and anything beyond such a process is merely philosophicial opinion. Anyone is entitled to have one, but it's extremely dishonest to suggest: "i am a scientist, bow before my wisdom on this claim" when a scientist is out of his depth. Evolution as process is observable, evolution as origin is an entirely different kettle of fish (a philosophy).

    In the end, i find it all quite a moot point. The bible doesnt seek to answer the 'how' that most seem to want it to answer. It's not a science text book, and we should never treat it as such. Genesis seeks to answer the topic of 'why' the universe (and us) was created. Science can try and study the process of 'how' as much as they like, but it and the bible are asking different although compatible questions. Why was the universe created? (the bible says God willed it) How was the universe created? (Big bang etc etc) No compatibility issues there.

    The only issue is whether God did it or not, and scientists can't go into metaphysics. From this stalemate perspective on creation it's then beneficial to take the curious atheist into ethics (eg. If there is no God, what is evil?) although that is for another thread and question.
    "Few men are born brave. Many become so through training and force of discipline"
    -Flavius Vegetius Renatus

    "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

    Watch This! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyheJ480LYA - Christian Artist Lecrae

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    i usually go with the 'things don't come from nothing/information doesn't come from non-information' argument. the problem is many people, once examined actually don't know what they believe. those people claiming to be athiests are apathetic and believe a couple random books or internet sites and misinformation. i know of some like this. they'll say words and expect them to be an argument, when in reality, they are spitting rhetoric. its amusing sometimes.

  12. #12
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    Stubbornness isn't exclusive to atheists. There are plenty of Christians who refuse to believe truth in various areas as well.

  13. #13
    We still have christians who claim the sun orbits the earth. I daresay stubbornness isn't exclusively an atheistic trait.
    "The sleep of reason produces monsters" --Francisco Goya

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sherry W View Post
    I use three analogies to point out how evolution and the Big Bang are very unlikely, but it doesn't work. Is it because atheists don't WANT to believe?

    1. The watch and the watchmaker.

    2. A tornado going through a junk yard and assembling a fully operational 747.
    Those are rather "rough" analogies that aren't really comparable to reality.

    How does the probability of just one out of a million possible supernatural explanations being correct stack up against those odds?

    3. The chance of only eight out of the more than 300 messianic prophecies coming to pass by accident is like covering the entire state of Texas with silver dollars two feet deep and marking one with an "X" and mixing them up and having a blindfolded man walk around and picking out the right silver dollar.
    Well, often atheists may point out that a lot of those fulfilled prophecies are somewhat subjective.

    Additionally this analogy is kind of flawed in that it assumes all these fulfilled prophecies are purely accidental instead of intentional, and when you're dealing with human beings intentionality is always a factor.

    Finally, there's always the fact that even really improbable things happen alot - people win the lottery, are struck by lightning, ect. Given enough time someone will eventually win a long bet.
    "The sleep of reason produces monsters" --Francisco Goya

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itinerant Lurker View Post
    Those are rather "rough" analogies that aren't really comparable to reality.
    What part of reality would that be? I think one would have to work extremely hard to ignore the simple truth, and implications of the fact that the existence of a watch implies a watchmaker. But men do work that hard, even as Pilate asked Jesus "what is truth?", the godless reprobate of mind continue to ask "what is design?", not that the question is inappropriate but that the question is never allowed to be answered.

    How many people do you know, between bouts of drunken stupor, will wake up and freely acknowledge the reality of cause and effect?

    The tornado/junkyard analogy speaks to the untenable, indefensible notion that time and chance can account for everything that exists. The point of the analogy is to say that no matter if the tornado kept blowing for a million years, it wouldn't produce such a sophisticated machine as a commercial jet airliner, let alone a runway long enough to get it off the ground.

    Well, often atheists may point out that a lot of those fulfilled prophecies are somewhat subjective.
    Only the ignorant among their kind would suggest that the fulfillment of a prophecy is subjective. The others would rightly point out that the fact of their fulfillment is a separate issue from belief in the truth claims they make. What Sherry may be learning and what many of us have already learned is that unbelief is a matter of the will. A man will refuse to believe the factual truth if he doesn't want to believe it.

    Additionally this analogy is kind of flawed in that it assumes all these fulfilled prophecies are purely accidental instead of intentional, and when you're dealing with human beings intentionality is always a factor.
    I believe the analogy speaks to the atheist claim that fulfilled prophecies are due to random chance. The analogy is not suggesting that the prophecies were chance events, but that the only explanation for them falls outside of random chance.

    The Biblical view, as I understand it, shows that God is able to broadcast his intentions in advance and bring about that intent at some future time. His predictions are specific enough to rule out random, chance events.

    Finally, there's always the fact that even really improbable things happen alot - people win the lottery, are struck by lightning, ect. Given enough time someone will eventually win a long bet.
    This is true, but now you seem to be getting at a set of criteria by which to analyze whether a predicted event has been fulfilled.

    Discerning the difference between a legitimate prediction/event and a bogus claim takes skill and practice. The Biblical presentation of this idea records God's instructions on how to tell the difference between a true prophet and a false prophet, how to know whether a prophecy came from the Lord or another source, and what do with that information. Prophets were taught how to recognize the voice of the Lord (refer to Samuel) and the people were taught how to recognize real prophecy from the fake. (refer to Elijah).

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