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Thread: When is the great tribulation?

  1. #1

    When is the great tribulation?

    Did you know it happens in Rev. 7?

    Look for yourself!
    v 14 "....great tribulation..."


    Do you know that Rev. 7 is a chapter that didn't happen as a sealed book part?


    John saw seals 1-6 get opened.....then the 6th seal ends....and John gets the information of Rev. 7.

    It doesn't belong in the 7th seal part either - for that seal had yet to be opened.

    1-6 seals - have been opened
    that part ended
    Rev. 7 - shows John info as to what leads up to "great tribulation".
    It begins at the time of "four corners", so that means John is getting something that would slide into just about the time of the opening of the 4th seal rider.

    7:1
    "And after these things..."
    So - not part of the 6th seal.

    "...four angels standing on the four corners..."
    Why? {Answer} Because the 4th seal rider will scatter Israel to the four corners of the earth.

  2. #2
    In Rev. 7 - you need to place some other chapters of Rev. that talk about the events of the 4th seal to the start of the 7th seal.


    Rev. 7 - four corners time
    - so time to send the rider with many weapon types
    =4th seal rider - with several ways to kill people

    Also - time to seal some of Israel so they will survive to be there for the 1000 years that will begin later.

    Ask yourself - Don't the two witnesses get slain during the Rev. 7 great tribulation time?

  3. #3
    Consider something?

    Is the middle of Revelation mixed up as to its overall order as to how John heard and saw things?
    Yes! It can be poven in several ways.

    1. Look at where the great tribulation time comes.
    (before the 7th seal)
    (the two witnesses must get slain and get into the temple in heaven before the 7th seal can be opened)
    (the two witnesses have to be part of the "great multitude" of Rev. 7 that come out of great tribulation)

    So what then - with chapter 8 - another great tribulation time starts?
    No - for we would need another wicked ruler - another time of four angels standing on the four corners - and another time of angels sent out to seal the tribes of Israel.

    What you want to think about is - with the 7th trumpet - the "mystery of God" is finished.
    But with chapters 16-22, we find - 22:10<><
    "...Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand."
    What if this book is only the part from where John ate a little book in chapter 10, because he was to prophesy again?
    Chapters 16-22 will join link by link - verse by verse to show they smoothly come as one big section. Only problem is - before Rev. 16 can get her vials going, we would need what happens at the very end of chapter 11.
    Chapter 11 is where the trumpet story is winding up. But look at the end of chapter 15 - what story must go there?

    "till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled"

    Why does it seem that John heard the trumpets at the end of chapter 15?
    Because he did!

    We have to look carefully at chapters 7-15. "the mystery of God" But the last part of Revelation was not sealed, due to the time was at hand.
    Rev. 17 - shows that one king is
    -as in John was alive during the time of the 6th king of blasphemy

    None of the seals or trumpets were for John's day.

    Just take a look at how Rev. 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. Doesn't it seem that something is out of place?

    Rev. 11 ends with mentioning
    "great hail"

    then chapter 12
    "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven..."
    v3
    "And there appeared another wonder in heaven..."

    Akkk - what happened to the great hail part - how did it get finished?

  4. #4
    Another thing to work on!

    Look at how salvation is said - by the great multitude in Rev. 7.

    Okay, now - go read Hebrews 9:28.

    So did Jesus appear before the part of Rev. 8 as to the 7th seal is opened?

  5. #5
    Consider this too|

    In the 6th seal we get the signs that the tribulation is over - so wouldn't that mean Rev. 7 has already been going before that?

  6. #6
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    The scribal chapter/verse numbering system that was placed ontop of the scriptures is a little funky here; and creates some confusion.

    Seal 1 = Rev 6:1-2
    Seal 2 = Rev 6:3-4
    Seal 3 = Rev 6:5-6
    Seal 4 = Rev 6:7-8
    Seal 5 = Rev 6:9-11
    Seal 6 = Rev 6:12-17
    Seal 7 = Rev 8:1

    Chapter 7 is a parenthetical insert into the presentation of the Seals; showing the resulting climax of the gospel with everyone from all ages gathered together around the Throne on the Day of the Lord.

    Chapter 7 shows the result of the gospel going to the Jews first, then the resulting spread of the gospel to all the Gentiles and the complete salvation of the entire family of God.

    Chapter 8 verse 2 begins the vision of the Trumpets, and doesn't mention the Seals vision which ended in verse 8:1; but goes back and recapitulates more details and attributes of events leading up to the Return of Christ.

    Revelation shows the Return of Christ through many different visions, spanning many chapters. It doesn't show 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 different returns of Christ from Heaven...it only shows one...but it shows that climactic return from several perspectives, angles, and effects.

  7. #7
    This recap framework of John's visions is something most people are completely unaware of, even though a number of things should make it obvious. (For instance, Revelation 11 states that the time had come for the judgment, yet this is seen again in Revelation 20. It doesn't happen twice, and there isn't any Scriptural support for two separate judgments, so the only reasonable conclusion is that John sees the same event from two different perspectives.)

    The best example to give that supports this idea that John's visions are recapitulations of each other is to bring up the prophecies in Daniel. Daniel 2 parallels Daniel 7; they're the same thing, just seen from different perspectives. Daniel 8 parallels parts of both 2 and 7 (though not entirely), and Daniel 11 parallels Daniel 8. It's not a strict sequence of events; they recap each other and complement each other. It's the same thing in the Revelation.

  8. #8
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    Here are a view examples of Revelation presenting recap visions that compliment one another, discussing a single subject (as opposed to multiple re-occurances of that event as if it were a chronological read).


    The 2nd Coming of Christ
    01) Rev 1:7
    02) Rev 3:3
    03) Rev 6:12-17
    04) Rev 11:15-18
    05) Rev 14:14-20
    06) Rev 16:15-21
    07) Rev 17:14
    08) Rev 19:7-16
    09) Rev 20:9-15
    10) Rev 21:3
    11) Rev 22:7

    Now Revelation isn't describing 11 different Returns of Christ from Heaven. Just one, but in many different ways, visions, and passages (Even if you don't agree with all of them, you can realize that at least many of them are describing the Return of Christ from Heaven...not multiple returns)


    The Judgment of the Wicked
    01) Rev 6:12-17
    02) Rev 11:18
    03) Rev 14:8-20
    04) Rev 16:14-21
    05) Rev 19:11
    06) Rev 20:12-15

    Not 6 different judgments of the Wicked by God, just one; told from 6 different perspectives over 6 different visions.


    The Winepress of the wrath of God
    01) Rev 14:19-20
    02) Rev 19:16
    03) Rev 19:15

    Not three different outpourings of His cup of the wine of His Wrath, just one shown from three different perspectives and visions.


    The Earthquake, Islands and Mountains being moved from their places
    01) Rev 6:12-14
    02) Rev 8:5
    03) Rev 11:19
    04) Rev 16:18-20

    Not 4 different earthquakes with different Island and Mountain destructions...but again, parallel recapitulations of Christ's return and what happens when He returns in Glory, Power, and Judgment.

  9. #9
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    Tribulation: Spring 67 A.D. (Most likely End of February) thru
    August 30, 70 A.D. (Destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem)

    Time Period: 42 months or 3 1/2 years.

    Matthew 24

    15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    December 66 A.D. Jerusalem surrounded by Titus and the armies of Rome "Abomination"-See Luke 21 as well "Jerusalem surrounded by armies".

    This was a local event, not worldwide. If it was why was the warning only given to Judea? It was because the tribulation was to occur in Jerusalem only, not the world. Was not the temple that was to be destroyed mentioned in the beginning of the "Olivet Discourse" by Christ the very standing temple (Herodian) in Jerusalem? When Jesus spoke that "one stone would not be left upon another" wasn't this the only statement Jesus spoke of that would occur? Everyone that followed had to be about the temple's destruction and nothing more.

    17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Those who saw the armies of Rome surround Jerusalem, and then mysteriously leave left Jerusalem and fled to the mountains of Pella. This was the last time anyone had to escape the coming destruction.

    February 67 A.D. Titus returned and began the 42 month/3 1/2 year siege of Jerusalem, ending in it's destruction on August 30, 70 A.D. In regards to Jerusalem only, there was not an event like this that had occurred earlier, and would not occur later as in the destruction of the temple and the city a generation after Jesus spoke the prophecy. 1 Million people were killed and the rest exiled.

    The city of Jerusalem would never have to face anything like this ever again. And it hasn't.

    Just another viewpoint.

    God Bless!

  10. #10
    All right, now that is what I like to see! I didn't want to come back on here as I'm so disappointed as to how people won't even read my posts. I was a street preachette, and God called me to the net to have the church go deeper into the book of Revelation.
    (deeper into how prophecies of the OT tie to the NT)
    I keep telling God that people are not interested on here. They like the mumbo jumbo that is popular today.

    What happened is John saw seals 1-6 opened - then we need to set that part aside.

    for next he tells us

    Rev. 7:1
    "And after these things I saw..."
    |John is not watching the seals being opened now. John left that seals opened section for a brief stray into visions.

    Rev. 7:1
    "And after that I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth..."
    |This is not part of the 6th seal story.|

    Okay, please look at something else - what angels have just been introduced into the story?
    |"four angels"|

    "I saw four angels"
    |This is worded in such a way showing us what?|
    It reveals to us that John has not seen these angels forming this group in the past.

    four angels

    How would John write it if he had seen them earlier?

    "the four angels"
    /as in the already placed in the book of Revelation angel set******

    Who cares?
    Well, everybody that wants to understand Revelation - as to getting off on the right start!
    Why?
    Because how many times do preachers, authors today go around telling people that the 7 trumpets come out of the 7th seal?
    First, it was that simple dimple to understand, then why do they need to put out a book by themselves, when all people need to do is read chapter 8 of Rev.?

    But what if this is not so simple - what if the church is over-looking some major key to putting the book in the proper order?

    Just for a moment - Rev. 8:2
    and Rev. 15:1

    Is something looking out of a place to you?
    Where did John first place that 7 member angel group in the overall book of Rev.?

    4 member angel group
    Rev. 7:1
    "...I saw four angels..."
    (place of John first sees them together)
    forever after that they now become<>>
    "...to the four angels....'
    (the four angels)

    So now how would a 7 member angel group have to be written as to introduce it into the book of Rev.?

    as in Rev. 8:2a
    or as in Rev. 15:1
    ?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The scribal chapter/verse numbering system that was placed ontop of the scriptures is a little funky here; and creates some confusion.

    Seal 1 = Rev 6:1-2
    Seal 2 = Rev 6:3-4
    Seal 3 = Rev 6:5-6
    Seal 4 = Rev 6:7-8
    Seal 5 = Rev 6:9-11
    Seal 6 = Rev 6:12-17
    Seal 7 = Rev 8:1
    Okay, great job on that! So we can see that Rev. 7 is where John has entered into a period of seeing things that were not a direct link to the end of the 6th seal.
    We find an entire chapter given to us that was not part of the seals being revealed.
    |Rev. 7 is an "after" message.|
    After seals 1-6 were opened John was shown some new information by giving him the message parts in Rev. 7.


    Chapter 7 is a parenthetical insert into the presentation of the Seals; showing the resulting climax of the gospel with everyone from all ages gathered together around the Throne on the Day of the Lord.
    I like that "a parenthetical insert"...it took us to the day of the LORD. Okay, we found these 4 angels holding back the four winds. They stood on the four corners of the earth.
    Here's what the church needs to understand> we can use the OT to show us this message in Rev. 7 has been inserted to give us finer details - needed understanding of what happened from seal 4 to the start of the 7th.


    "Seal 1 = Rev 6:1-2
    Seal 2 = Rev 6:3-4
    Seal 3 = Rev 6:5-6
    Seal 4 = Rev 6:7-8
    Seal 5 = Rev 6:9-11
    Seal 6 = Rev 6:12-17
    Seal 7 = Rev 8:1"

    Was the first seal the most important to understand? How about the second seal rider? no - But get to the 4th seal - and this rider is named - and we find the use of many weapons and "over the fourth part of the earth"

    Come to Rev. 7 and we find four angels - on the four corners of the earth.

    So how can we make sense out of this? How can we know that the wind time about to blow on the earth will be caused by the 4th seal rider? We need to go look at what took place in Ezekiel 7 and 9. The time of four corners - the day of trouble - the time when the wickedst of the heathen (Nebuchadnezzar) was about to be sent on the land and have many ways of mischief.

    Compare these things to the fourth seal?

    Ezekiel 7:1
    "...that land of Israel...the end is come upon the four corners..."
    v 13
    "...the vision..."
    v 15
    "...sword...pestilence...famine...devour..."
    v24
    "...send the worst of the heathen..."

    Do you know what then soon had to be done?
    Ezekiel chapter 9
    v 4
    "...set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations..."

    John gets Rev. 7 - shows us a part as to four corners - and people get sealed.
    |We saw in Ezekiel's day that meant the rider with many different ways to slay people was coming.|

    What if Rev. 7 is given to John to provide clues as to the worst part of the seals?


    Seal 1 = Rev 6:1-2
    Seal 2 = Rev 6:3-4
    Seal 3 = Rev 6:5-6
    people must get sealed - before the next rider comes
    Seal 4 = Rev 6:7-8 {four corners man}
    Seal 5 = Rev 6:9-11
    Seal 6 = Rev 6:12-17 (end of trib signs)
    after that
    Rev. 7 - (warning us about seals 4-6)
    (warning us about the time of four corners)
    (ends with men out of great tribulation)


    Seal 7 = Rev 8:1


    I copied the rest of your post to discuss later. I'm trying to see if we can get a place where a bunch of us on this board can agree.

  12. #12
    Can we agree that the Rev. 7 "parenthetical insert" chapter is taking us back to about the start of the 4th seal?
    as in - parenthetical allllllll theeeeee wayyyyy back to when the 4th seal is about to be opened?

    We get to Rev. 7:9 and we find another - shove this away part.

    Rev. 7:9
    "After this I beheld..."

    We find this type of way of marking divisions several times in the overall book.

    ex.
    Rev. 15:5
    "And after that I looked..."
    This is our key that the sequence breaks apart.


    Can we also agree on that?

  13. #13
    |David Taylor|

    Chapter 7 shows the result of the gospel going to the Jews first, then the resulting spread of the gospel to all the Gentiles and the complete salvation of the entire family of God.
    I want to zoom in that you noted "salvation" is found in Rev. 7.

    Rev. 7:9-10
    "...a great multitude...saying, Salvation..."
    I see this word "salvation" as when it shows up in the various places in the book - it means Jesus is coming or just returned for His church.

    Hebrews 9:28 shows us this same pattern.
    "...shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
    Find the salvation word in Rev. - and expect it is the timing of the return of the LORD.
    |time for Jesus Christ to appear!|

    Since Jesus returns in Rev. 7 - before the 7th seal is even opened, then how is it possible for the 7 trumpets to sound after the 7th seal?


    Seal 1 = Rev 6:1-2
    Seal 2 = Rev 6:3-4
    Seal 3 = Rev 6:5-6
    people must get sealed - before the next rider comes
    Seal 4 = Rev 6:7-8 {four corners man}
    Seal 5 = Rev 6:9-11
    Seal 6 = Rev 6:12-17 (end of trib signs)
    after that
    Rev. 7 - (warning us about seals 4-6)
    (warning us about the time of four corners)
    (ends with men out of great tribulation)
    Jesus has returned!

    Seal 7 = Rev 8:1

    And soon up is the time of havoc of the trumpets?
    Huh?

    Look very closely at how John wrote to us.

    Rev. 8:2
    "...saw the seven angels..."

    So what is wrong with this picture?

  14. #14
    |markedward|
    This recap framework of John's visions is something most people are completely unaware of, even though a number of things should make it obvious. (For instance, Revelation 11 states that the time had come for the judgment, yet this is seen again in Revelation 20. It doesn't happen twice, and there isn't any Scriptural support for two separate judgments, so the only reasonable conclusion is that John sees the same event from two different perspectives.)
    as to John uses a "recap framework"
    "a number of things should make it obvious"

    Yes!
    Ok! Do you see what I'm saying as to Rev. 8:2 has "the seven angels"?

    For a sample...as to how John wrote to us<>>
    Rev. 21:3
    "And I heard a great voice out of heaven..."
    What - how about Rev. 10:4 "...heard a voice from heaven..."

    Why isn't Rev. 21 - another voice?
    Because John now has begun to write what happens as to the new heaven.

    So how did John tell us about this group?

    1:16
    "...seven stars..."
    2:1
    "...the seven stars..."

    So how should John show us a 7 angel group for the first time?


    The best example to give that supports this idea that John's visions are recapitulations of each other is to bring up the prophecies in Daniel. Daniel 2 parallels Daniel 7; they're the same thing, just seen from different perspectives. Daniel 8 parallels parts of both 2 and 7 (though not entirely), and Daniel 11 parallels Daniel 8. It's not a strict sequence of events; they recap each other and complement each other. It's the same
    thing in the Revelation.
    Ok! Great analogy, using the book of Daniel. I havee tried to do that too, by showing people that Daniel 7 contains three visions.
    Just as we have to split things into section in Rev. 7 when we find "after", so too we must do in Daniel.


    Daniel 7:3
    "...four great beasts came up...

    7:6
    "After this I saw in the night visions..."
    "after"
    So this is not part of the four beasts came up vision.
    Daniel even takes the word and makes it plural - "visions".

    This is why so many people today watch for ten horns as a group to show up - and it is actually 13.

  15. #15
    |Romulus|

    Tribulation: Spring 67 A.D. (Most likely End of February) thru
    August 30, 70 A.D. (Destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem)

    Time Period: 42 months or 3 1/2 years.

    Matthew 24

    15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ...


    Are you saying that the Son of man has already shown up in heaven and all the tribes of the earth mourned too? If so, then why are the tribes of Israel still in blindness, as to they don't know the Messiah died for the sins of the world?

    Matthew 24:29
    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days, shall the sun be darkened..."
    v 30
    "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

    As you saying that is all over with? Because this follows the great tribulation time that Jesus spoke of.

    24:6
    "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubledL for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet."

    Do you believe that in the days of Titus there was time for wars and rumours of wars to come to pass first - and that wasn't the end yet?

    approx. 33 A.D.
    Titus - 67-70 A.D.

    Here's another problem as to the great tribulation is over.

    Luke 21:25
    "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars..."
    Same book earlier told us<>>
    "...This is an evil generation...no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."
    Luke 11:29

    Matthew 16:4, 12:39-40

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