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Thread: The Olivet Discourse

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    The Olivet Discourse

    Three apostles were chosen by God to write about the prophecy given by Jesus on the Mount of Olives. Matthew, Mark, and Luke. None of these three men heard this first hand, but all three were directed by the Holy Spirit in everything they said in these three accounts.

    I have heard it said that Luke was speaking of what took place in 70 AD and Matt and Mark were speaking about an antichrist in our day. That Luke was making record of a Discourse given on a different day, but when we examine the way the accounts begin this proves to not be true.

    Both Mark and Luke begin their accounting with the same story of the old widow putting her last two mites in the treasury.


    Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
    Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
    Mar 12:43 And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
    Mar 12:44 For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.
    Luk 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
    Luk 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
    Luk 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
    Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

    So in this we understand that Matt, Mark and Luke are all three relating what Jesus said as they were leaving the Temple and later while sitting on the Mount of Olives.

    So because of that reason it doesn't matter if we are reading Luke's account or reading Matthew's account of this time-line prophecy, They are all the same, even though they sound different. They may sound different because Luke was writing more for the understanding of the Gentile Christians. But there was only one discourse on the Mount of Olives so they are the same events that Jesus spoke of that day.


    Mat 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

    Mar 13:1 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"

    Luk 21:5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts,

    Jesus responded concerning the Herod buildings they were looking at by saying they would be destroyed.

    Mat 24:2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

    Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

    Luk 21:6 He said,"{As for} these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."


    Jesus and followers had left the temple complex when some remarked about the beauty of the the Herod buildings that they were viewing. And that is the keywords "These great building!"

    It is those Herod built buildings that will be being destroyed that prompts the disciples want to know WHEN those Herod building will be destroyed!

    Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Mar 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, :4 "Tell us, when will these things be, and what {will be} the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?"

    Luk 21:7 They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what {will be} the sign when these things are about to take place?"


    Mark and Luke word the questions asked of Jesus about the Herod buildings a little different than how Matthew words it. Remember all three are writing about the same questions asked of Jesus that day. This shows us that the Apostles believed that the event that would bring about the destruction of Herod's Temple buildings would take place at the return of Jesus at the end of the age. So all three are recording the same thing asked that day, even though it seems different.


    Jesus answers the question as if they were two questions.

    The first question is what will the signs be to know when the Herod buildings will be destroyed.

    The second question of what will be the signs of His return and the end of the age.


    That is what this prophecy is about. Please don't believe that Jesus didn't answer the first question. He did and that is what the majority of this time line-prophecy if about.

    I'll start a new post with Luke's account first since his account makes some things clear that will help us understand this.

    God bless
    In Him
    Norma

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    Searcher1,
    I believe that the first error that you have made in your discussion about the Olivet discourse is the idea that none of the three writers witnessed the account of the Olivet discourse. Matthew, if memory serves me right, was there when the Lord gave His Olivet Discourse. This would explain why Matthew's account is so much longer than all of the others. (Matthew's account spans two chapters while both Mark and Luke's versions only span one chapter). The second error is that although Mark did not witnessthe Olivet Discourse, Peter, the one whom orated His version of the Gospel to Mark, did witness it. Luke, on the other hand, only written down reports from other eye-witnesses, who, like Luke's version, only focused on what the Lord said concerning Jerusalem.

    Now I am not one of those who believes that these three records are separate events. I believe that the Olivet discourse is one whole event. I also believe, mainly because of Peter's version in Mark, that Jesus's answer to the disciples was both long and very informative. In other words, He dealt with all three questions, including the one that Matthew raises that none of the other versions have in it. (That question is what is the signs of your coming and the end of the age, a question found solely in Matthew's account).

    With all of that in mind, this is how I see the Olivet discourse.

    Matthew's account deals solely with what the signs of the end are, as he mentions things concerning the Lord's return that are not written in either Mark or Luke's account. (Matthew 25 is nowhere in either other gospel).

    Luke's account deals primarily with what the Lord said concerning the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, something that most of the people of Jerusalem kept in mind whenever they discussed their recollection of the Olivet Discourse. Remember, Luke stated in the first chapter that he reported his findings from eyewitnesses who had seen the things that the Lord did while He walked the earth. This is why the parable of the shrewd manager appears in his Gospel and in no one elses. The people whom Luke interviewed were many, and all of them had their own slant on what they had seen and heard. (I am not saying that they were biased, but they would remember things which the Lord said that dealt with them, which some, like Peter and Matthew, found to be unnecessary, although in hind sight, it would have been better for them to write that one down in their versions).

    Mark's version, or should I say Peter's version, attempts to summarize everything that the Lord talked about during the Olivet Discourse. This is why both portions of Luke's version and Matthew's version appears in His version. Now that would be strange if Mark's version was written AFTER the other two. However, most historians agree that Mark's version was the FIRST of the three to be written. Therefore, since Peter summarized the olivet discourse, it is very plausible that both Matthew and Luke read his version and felt as though Peter forgot some very key items. Luke went to the portion about Jerusalem, while Matthew went to the portion regarding the return of the Lord.

    In conclusion, the way I see it, if one is to paste together the whole Olivet discourse, we would have to pattern it after Mark's version, and start with Luke's version up to the point where Luke talks about changes in the weather. At that point, we need to add Matthew's whole account up to chapter 25. I believe that Matthew's account of the Days of Noah matches that of Luke's and so we would not lose any of what Luke says by substituting Matthew's version into his. If we did this, then we would have the whole Olivett discourse, and not someone trying to make all three versions of this historic and prophetic sermon say the same thing, when they clearly do not. Each has different focuses, but all three are equally acceptible, as we gain a much clearer understanding of what Lord Jesus actually said on the steps of the Temple.

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    I believe that the first error that you have made in your discussion about the Olivet discourse is the idea that none of the three writers witnessed the account of the Olivet discourse. Matthew, if memory serves me right, was there when the Lord gave His Olivet Discourse.


    Mar 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately


    No error here. This states the three apostles that were there speaking with Jesus privately.

    The second error is that although Mark did not witnessthe Olivet Discourse, Peter, the one whom orated His version of the Gospel to Mark, did witness it. Luke, on the other hand, only written down reports from other eye-witnesses, who, like Luke's version, only focused on what the Lord said concerning Jerusalem.
    Are you forgetting that it was the Holy Spirit that directed all three what to write? The Holy Spirit did not make any errors so these three accounts are equal in that they all speak of the same words of Jesus on that day. You have no reason to believe that Luke didn't also speak with Peter about this or even John.

    Your first error is saying that Luke's version only focused on Jerusalem as if Jesus told two discourses that day. All three are making record of what Jesus said on that day about the destruction of Herod's Temple buildings. So if one is speaking about Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple then they are all speaking of the destruction of those very same Herod builds in Jerusalem.

    The length of the accounts is not what should determine anything for you. It is the content. Each account takes us through all of the events of the time-line.


    Therefore, since Peter summarized the olivet discourse, it is very plausible that both Matthew and Luke read his version and felt as though Peter forgot some very key items. Luke went to the portion about Jerusalem, while Matthew went to the portion regarding the return of the Lord.

    They felt Peter, who was there, FORGOT some very key items??

    That would be your second error. That is like saying the Holy Spirit forgot to remind Peter of all the key words that Jesus spoke that day.


    In conclusion, the way I see it, if one is to paste together the whole Olivet discourse,
    okay, I will paste up all three so that you can see that they are telling the exact same time-line of events. The Holy Spirit chose the words for each to write. When we read them all as one account then we get the whole picture.

    With what I have posted so far you can easily see that Jesus made a statement about what would happen to Herod's temple Buildings and the first part of the question (in all three accounts) is tell us about these things?


    The Olivet Discourse
    Three apostles were chosen by God to write about the prophecy given by Jesus on the Mount of Olives. Matthew, Mark, and Luke. None of these three men heard this first hand, but all three were directed by the Holy Spirit in everything they said in these three accounts.

    I have heard it said that Luke was speaking of what took place in 70 AD and Matt and Mark were speaking about an antichrist in our day. That Luke was making record of a Discourse given on a different day, but when we examine the way the accounts begin this proves to not be true.

    Both Mark and Luke begin their accounting with the same story of the old widow putting her last two mites in the treasury.


    Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
    Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
    Mar 12:43 And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
    Mar 12:44 For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.
    Luk 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
    Luk 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
    Luk 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
    Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

    So in this we understand that Matt, Mark and Luke are all three relating what Jesus said as they were leaving the Temple and later while sitting on the Mount of Olives.

    So because of that reason it doesn't matter if we are reading Luke's account or reading Matthew's account of this time-line prophecy, They are all the same, even though they sound different. They may sound different because Luke was writing more for the understanding of the Gentile Christians. But there was only one discourse on the Mount of Olives so they are the same events that Jesus spoke of that day.


    Mat 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

    Mar 13:1 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"

    Luk 21:5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts,

    Jesus responded concerning the Herod buildings they were looking at by saying they would be destroyed.

    Mat 24:2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

    Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

    Luk 21:6 He said,"{As for} these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."

    Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Mar 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, :4 "Tell us, when will these things be, and what {will be} the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?"

    Luk 21:7 They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what {will be} the sign when these things are about to take place?"


    So Jesus is going to tell them about the signs leading up to the destruction of those Herod buildings that they were commenting on.

    I am sure you are able to see that right? So let us deal with the first part of their question first and then deal with the second part of the question, which is those things that pertain to the end of the age.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    Searcher1,
    I believe that the first error that you have made in your discussion about the Olivet discourse is the idea that none of the three writers witnessed the account of the Olivet discourse. Matthew, if memory serves me right, was there when the Lord gave His Olivet Discourse. This would explain why Matthew's account is so much longer than all of the others. (Matthew's account spans two chapters while both Mark and Luke's versions only span one chapter).
    Is it wise to accuse someone of being in error without researching it first?

    Mark 13
    3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Searcher1 View Post
    Three apostles were chosen by God to write about the prophecy given by Jesus on the Mount of Olives. Matthew, Mark, and Luke. None of these three men heard this first hand, but all three were directed by the Holy Spirit in everything they said in these three accounts.

    I have heard it said that Luke was speaking of what took place in 70 AD and Matt and Mark were speaking about an antichrist in our day. That Luke was making record of a Discourse given on a different day, but when we examine the way the accounts begin this proves to not be true.

    Both Mark and Luke begin their accounting with the same story of the old widow putting her last two mites in the treasury.


    Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
    Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
    Mar 12:43 And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
    Mar 12:44 For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.
    Luk 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
    Luk 21:2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
    Luk 21:3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
    Luk 21:4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

    So in this we understand that Matt, Mark and Luke are all three relating what Jesus said as they were leaving the Temple and later while sitting on the Mount of Olives.

    So because of that reason it doesn't matter if we are reading Luke's account or reading Matthew's account of this time-line prophecy, They are all the same, even though they sound different. They may sound different because Luke was writing more for the understanding of the Gentile Christians. But there was only one discourse on the Mount of Olives so they are the same events that Jesus spoke of that day.


    Mat 24:1 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

    Mar 13:1 As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples *said to Him, "Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!"

    Luk 21:5 And while some were talking about the temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts,

    Jesus responded concerning the Herod buildings they were looking at by saying they would be destroyed.

    Mat 24:2 And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

    Mar 13:2 And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down."

    Luk 21:6 He said,"{As for} these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down."


    Jesus and followers had left the temple complex when some remarked about the beauty of the the Herod buildings that they were viewing. And that is the keywords "These great building!"

    It is those Herod built buildings that will be being destroyed that prompts the disciples want to know WHEN those Herod building will be destroyed!

    Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Mar 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, :4 "Tell us, when will these things be, and what {will be} the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?"

    Luk 21:7 They questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what {will be} the sign when these things are about to take place?"


    Mark and Luke word the questions asked of Jesus about the Herod buildings a little different than how Matthew words it. Remember all three are writing about the same questions asked of Jesus that day. This shows us that the Apostles believed that the event that would bring about the destruction of Herod's Temple buildings would take place at the return of Jesus at the end of the age. So all three are recording the same thing asked that day, even though it seems different.


    Jesus answers the question as if they were two questions.

    The first question is what will the signs be to know when the Herod buildings will be destroyed.

    The second question of what will be the signs of His return and the end of the age.


    That is what this prophecy is about. Please don't believe that Jesus didn't answer the first question. He did and that is what the majority of this time line-prophecy if about.

    I'll start a new post with Luke's account first since his account makes some things clear that will help us understand this.

    God bless
    In Him
    Norma
    Matt 24:29 says
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    Christ did not return in 70 AD.

  6. #6
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    Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:
    Luk 21:8a And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived:




    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
    Luk 21:8b And He said, "See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, 'I am {He,}' and, 'The time is near.' Do not go after them.


    Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
    Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end [is] not by and by.





    Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    Mar 13:8a For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles:
    Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.



    Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.
    Mar 13:8b these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.
    Luk 21:12 But before all these,



    The first thing we should discuss is why the Holy Spirit directed Luke to say "But before these things" instead of saying that these things are the beginnings of sorrows. Sorrows are labor pains or birth pangs that a woman goes through to give birth. This is speaking of the birth pangs the world will go through before giving birth to the new age. All three writers know that the birth pangs means that these are things that will happen toward the end and Luke translates this by saying before these things meaning that the next things spoken about by Jesus will happen before the sorrows.

  7. #7
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    Christ did not return in 70 AD.
    Why don't we wait until we get to that part of the study to discuss this, rom826.

    Do you see that the apostles are asking Jesus to explain about the destruction of the Herod buildings and when it will happen?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Searcher1 View Post
    Why don't we wait until we get to that part of the study to discuss this, rom826.

    Do you see that the apostles are asking Jesus to explain about the destruction of the Herod buildings and when it will happen?
    Sure, but they also asked him about the sign of his coming and the end of the age.

  9. #9
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    Sure, but they also asked him about the sign of his coming and the end of the age.
    I believe I made that abundantly clear already in what I wrote thus far.
    This is not something I am going to try to hide or ignore, in fact just the opposite. I am going to paste up all of what Jesus is recorded as saying on that day and He certainly speaks of those things that will happen at the end of the age.

    God bless

  10. #10
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    These are the things that will happen "before" the sorrows (birth pangs).



    Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
    Mar 13:9 "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to {the} courts, and you will be flogged in {the} synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
    Luk 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.


    Mar 13:10 "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
    Luk 21:13 "It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. (:14) "So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; (:15) for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.

    Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
    Mar 13:12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father {his} child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death.
    Luk 21:16 "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put {some} of you to death,


    Mat 24:11-13 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. (:12) "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. (:13) "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    Mar 13:13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    Luk 21:17 and you will be hated by all because of My name. (:18) "Yet not a hair of your head will perish. (:19) "By your endurance you will gain your lives.


    Mat 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


    Jesus is speaking of events that would take place over the next 40 years until the destruction of the Herod buildings that they were viewing. During this time Paul will bring the gospel to the gentiles. And the word will reach the known world of that day.


    In the next section, we read of the Abomination of Desolation, this abomination to God in Herod's Temple will be the cause the desolation of not only those Herod built buildings, but also of the entire city of Jerusalem.

    Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
    Mar 13:14a "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand),
    Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

    Jesus warns the church in Jerusalem

    Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
    Mar 13:14b then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Luk 21:21a "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains,
    Mat 24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. (:18) "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
    Mar 13:15 "The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house; (:16) and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat.
    Luk 21:21b and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

    :22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.


    They must flee because the city and temple are going to be totally destroyed. Left desolate, laid even to the ground as Jesus said while weeping over the city.

    Mat 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! (:20) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
    Mar 13:17 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! (:18) "But pray that it may not happen in the winter.
    Luk 21:23a "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days;


    The below verses are speaking of the destruction of the Herod Temple and the Holy City.
    Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
    Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a {time of} tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
    Luk 21:23b for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
    (:24) and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    The time of the gentiles is the gap fo 2000 years


    Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
    Mar 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

    The siege on Jerusalem, if it had contained any longer, would have caused the starvation of everyone in the city. As it was they were taking dead bodies out of the city by the wagon loads everyday. One woman had given into eating the body of her dead baby.

    But some believe it is the tribulation of the Jews in exile that was cut short because of Hitler. He killed over six million Jews and 5 million Christians.

    From this point on Jesus speaks of the signs of the end of the age.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Searcher1 View Post
    ...Jesus warns the church in Jerusalem...
    What church? Jesus says clearly in Matthew's account that once the AoD appears (it can only happen in the last half of the 70th week) people are to avoid fleeing on the Sabbath. Of what concern would the Sabbath be to the church?

  12. #12
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    The Church in Jerusalem. They took Jesus' warning and fled to Paella before being trapped in Jerusalem. This is a mater of record.

    But the warning wasn't just for the Christians. I am sure the early Christians did all they could to spread the warning given by Jesus throughout the city that Jerusalem was soon to be destroyed.

    (it can only happen in the last half of the 70th week)
    I would assume that is your opinion based on your theory that 70th week is speaking of the antichrist? I disagree. But the part in the Olivet discourse about the A of D and the destruction of the Herod Buildings that Jesus was talking about took place in 70 AD. It was fulfilled in the exact way Jesus prophesied it would be, in that not one stone was left upon another of those Herod buildings they were viewing.

    I am sure you know that those buildings Jesus was viewing are not there today so this part of the prophecy (which was about no other buildings but Herod's) can not happen in our future.

    In Him
    Norma

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Searcher1 View Post
    These are the things that will happen "before" the sorrows (birth pangs).



    Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
    Mar 13:9 "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to {the} courts, and you will be flogged in {the} synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
    Luk 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.


    Mar 13:10 "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
    Luk 21:13 "It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. (:14) "So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; (:15) for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute.

    Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
    Mar 13:12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father {his} child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death.
    Luk 21:16 "But you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put {some} of you to death,


    Mat 24:11-13 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. (:12) "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. (:13) "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    Mar 13:13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
    Luk 21:17 and you will be hated by all because of My name. (:18) "Yet not a hair of your head will perish. (:19) "By your endurance you will gain your lives.


    Mat 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.


    Jesus is speaking of events that would take place over the next 40 years until the destruction of the Herod buildings that they were viewing. During this time Paul will bring the gospel to the gentiles. And the word will reach the known world of that day.


    In the next section, we read of the Abomination of Desolation, this abomination to God in Herod's Temple will be the cause the desolation of not only those Herod built buildings, but also of the entire city of Jerusalem.

    Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
    Mar 13:14a "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand),
    Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.

    Jesus warns the church in Jerusalem

    Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
    Mar 13:14b then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Luk 21:21a "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains,
    Mat 24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. (:18) "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
    Mar 13:15 "The one who is on the housetop must not go down, or go in to get anything out of his house; (:16) and the one who is in the field must not turn back to get his coat.
    Luk 21:21b and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;

    :22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.


    They must flee because the city and temple are going to be totally destroyed. Left desolate, laid even to the ground as Jesus said while weeping over the city.

    Mat 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! (:20) "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
    Mar 13:17 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! (:18) "But pray that it may not happen in the winter.
    Luk 21:23a "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days;


    The below verses are speaking of the destruction of the Herod Temple and the Holy City.
    Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
    Mar 13:19 "For those days will be a {time of} tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
    Luk 21:23b for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
    (:24) and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    The time of the gentiles is the gap fo 2000 years


    Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
    Mar 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

    The siege on Jerusalem, if it had contained any longer, would have caused the starvation of everyone in the city. As it was they were taking dead bodies out of the city by the wagon loads everyday. One woman had given into eating the body of her dead baby.

    But some believe it is the tribulation of the Jews in exile that was cut short because of Hitler. He killed over six million Jews and 5 million Christians.

    From this point on Jesus speaks of the signs of the end of the age.
    Matt 24:22 says
    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


    and Matt 24:29 says
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

    There is nothing in the context that shows "those days" in verse 22 as being different than "those days" in verse 29.

  14. #14
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    Actually there is a big difference now that you bring it up.

    Those days=the "days of vengeance" or the desolation of the city. They will be shortened least no man survive.

    And those days= the time of captivity in the nations until the time of the gentile is complete. This time in the nations lasts for a couple thousand years. Immediately after these days the Lord will return.

    The last of the Jews to be freed out of captivity were the Jews in the Soviet Union which began to be freed in 1991.

    At that time then the birth pangs (sorrows) should begin. This is when we should see the beginning of the seals being opened. By the 6th seal we should see the Sun darkened and the moon red, etc. and then see the Lord coming in the clouds with great Glory to send out His angels to gather the elect to Him.

    Jesus gave a time-line in the discourse that would begin with the times of the apostles and continue until the time of His return.

    God bless

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