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Thread: God "coming", via Gentile armies (or, Jesus coming as "a thief")

  1. #1
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    God "coming", via Gentile armies (or, Jesus coming as "a thief")

    So I was reading through Jeremiah last month, and came across these two passages:


    • Jer. 15:5-8 "For who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem? Or who will bemoan you? Or who will turn aside to ask how you are doing? You have forsaken Me," says the LORD, "you have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of relenting! And I will winnow them with a winnowing fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children; I will destroy My people, since they do not return from their ways. Their widows will be increased to Me more than the sand of the seas; I will bring against them, against the mother of the young men, a plunderer at noonday; I will cause anguish and terror to fall on them suddenly."


    • Jer. 22:7 "I will prepare destroyers against you, everyone with his weapons; they shall cut down your choice cedars and cast them into the fire."


    Both of these are about God coming to judge Judah in the form of Babylon, which are too similar to John the Baptist's message to dismiss:


    • Matt. 3:7-12 ...when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones [the stones of the river's bed, from where the faithful were rising]. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."


    John the Baptist was, like Jeremiah, prophesying that God was going to judge His own people by raising up the Romans against them.

    I see this kind of talk (God "coming" as wicked armies against His people) in Revelation as well... The seven letters at the beginning all seem to be of this type. To the churches who need to repent, He says that He will come against them for judgment, and that He would do so soon. But for those of us who believe Jesus' second coming to still be future, we ought to read these judgments in the same way as I showed above: not as by Jesus walking on the earth, but as by wicked men raised up by God in the generation that these seven epistles were written.

    I also see this in 16:13-16, which says,


    • And I saw three unclean spirits going out like frogs from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

    Here, as with Jeremiah and John the Baptist, we see wicked Gentile armies (the ten horns of the beast) gathering against Israel, but Jesus says that it is He who is coming against them. Do you all see what I'm saying here? In no way am I saying that Jesus won't come back as a Man; I'm simply saying here (as I have in the past, here and here) that sometimes what we think to be "second coming" passages may not quite be so.

    What're your thoughts? (I'd especially love to hear from markedward, who's probably manually picking up his jaw that just fell to the floor. )

    - astro
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  2. #2
    I'm simply saying here (as I have in the past, here and here) that sometimes what we think to be "second coming" passages may not quite be so.
    We have to be very careful what we proclaim. We find the judgment of God against nations which come against the his army (Revelation)
    19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    Ask yourself who wins that battle. Most of the OT prophecy as you used tells of the coming judgment of Irsael by other nations. For thier unrepentance hearts.


    Also let me add a question in which in your thread you posted "Jesus coming as a thief"
    The question; What does a thief do? A thief sneaks in secretly and steals things. What will Jesus be secretly stealing at his coming?
    Last edited by Beckrl; Jun 29th 2009 at 08:25 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    So I was reading through Jeremiah last month, and came across these two passages:


    • Jer. 15:5-8 "For who will have pity on you, O Jerusalem? Or who will bemoan you? Or who will turn aside to ask how you are doing? You have forsaken Me," says the LORD, "you have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of relenting! And I will winnow them with a winnowing fan in the gates of the land; I will bereave them of children; I will destroy My people, since they do not return from their ways. Their widows will be increased to Me more than the sand of the seas; I will bring against them, against the mother of the young men, a plunderer at noonday; I will cause anguish and terror to fall on them suddenly."

    • Jer. 22:7 "I will prepare destroyers against you, everyone with his weapons; they shall cut down your choice cedars and cast them into the fire."

    Both of these are about God coming to judge Judah in the form of Babylon, which are too similar to John the Baptist's message to dismiss:


    • Matt. 3:7-12 ...when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones [the stones of the river's bed, from where the faithful were rising]. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

    John the Baptist was, like Jeremiah, prophesying that God was going to judge His own people by raising up the Romans against them.

    I see this kind of talk (God "coming" as wicked armies against His people) in Revelation as well... The seven letters at the beginning all seem to be of this type. To the churches who need to repent, He says that He will come against them for judgment, and that He would do so soon. But for those of us who believe Jesus' second coming to still be future, we ought to read these judgments in the same way as I showed above: not as by Jesus walking on the earth, but as by wicked men raised up by God in the generation that these seven epistles were written.

    I also see this in 16:13-16, which says,


    • And I saw three unclean spirits going out like frogs from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
    Here, as with Jeremiah and John the Baptist, we see wicked Gentile armies (the ten horns of the beast) gathering against Israel, but Jesus says that it is He who is coming against them. Do you all see what I'm saying here? In no way am I saying that Jesus won't come back as a Man; I'm simply saying here (as I have in the past, here and here) that sometimes what we think to be "second coming" passages may not quite be so.

    What're your thoughts? (I'd especially love to hear from markedward, who's probably manually picking up his jaw that just fell to the floor. )

    - astro
    I have always believed He gathers the gentiles nations together and after that comes as a thief in the night. I believe that Rev 16:13-16 are still future. Do you not believe that those verses are still future?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    I see this kind of talk (God "coming" as wicked armies against His people) in Revelation as well...
    While I agree that the armies that God raises are "wicked", I don't typically consider that to be a relevant point on the situation. Whether the armies are wicked or just, the point is that God is using those armies as his tool of judgment. That's just my thought on this point (though it wasn't the main topic of your OP).

    The seven letters at the beginning all seem to be of this type. To the churches who need to repent, He says that He will come against them for judgment, and that He would do so soon. But for those of us who believe Jesus' second coming to still be future, we ought to read these judgments in the same way as I showed above: not as by Jesus walking on the earth, but as by wicked men raised up by God in the generation that these seven epistles were written.
    I agree with this, though I would necessarily point out Revelation 22.12... Jesus promises John that he was "coming soon", and he specifically describes how he would be "bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done"... To elaborate further might get me in trouble, so I'll let you see if you can make the connection for yourself.

    What're your thoughts? (I'd especially love to hear from markedward, who's probably manually picking up his jaw that just fell to the floor. )
    Of course, my final thought would be that, yes, this is the "second coming" event. But I can't elaborate my thoughts on the subject; board rules. Chances are you know what I'd have to say, but I can't do so publicly here.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    The question; What does a thief do? A thief sneaks in secretly and steals things. What will Jesus be secretly stealing at his coming?
    Per the scriptures a thief comes to kill and destroy not to secrectly steal. Jesus will come as a thief upon his second coming to kill and destroy the inhabinants of the earth.

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    He came as a baby through the womb of His mother. He is coming back again in the same way as He left.

    I dont remember there being any gentile armies mentioned at His Ascension.

  7. #7
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    Hey Mark, do you have other passages where this language is used? I'd love some more examples if you have them. (You can PM or email me if you like.)

    Thanks.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  8. #8
    Just to clarify, which type of language?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Just to clarify, which type of language?
    As I'm suggesting Rev. 16:13-16 is written. God saying He's coming, but which is fulfilled in the form of armies of men.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  10. #10
    Ah:

    2 Samuel 22.7-6
    "He bowed the heavens and came down; thick darkness was under his feet."

    Isaiah 19.1
    "Behold, YHWH is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt."

    Isaiah 26.21
    "For behold, YHWH is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity..."


    Micah 1.3
    "For behold, YHWH is coming out of his place, and will come down and tread upon the high places of the earth."

  11. #11
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    Sweet. Thank you. I'll have a look at those.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

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