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Thread: Problems created by the pre-trib rapture...

  1. #1
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    Problems created by the pre-trib rapture...

    In another thread in End Times someone said, "It is time to actually address the many inconsistencies in the writings of these Pretrib teachers." And I agree.

    I recently came across this, and thought it worth sharing. It does not have a copyright date, but was compiled by James Underwood and Mike Rouse. I say the two men are right on target about problems and inconsistances in the teaching.


    It has been stated in some of the pre-tribulation writings that the pre-tribulation rapture has less contradictions than any other system. Listed here are a few of the problems created by the pre-trib rapture.

    1. The interpretation of scripture by the pre-tribulation rapturist is literal but not literal enough. The last trump is not really the last trump to them. The words spoken to the disciples in Mat: 24 are because they are Jewish. They jump from scripture to scripture but do not let scriptures flow together. They allegorize the statement "Come up hither" to mean this is the rapture.
    2. To support the pre-trib rapture many teach that there will be two future comings of our Lord, up to seven resurrections, four to seven judgements, and two chosen peoples. As a result of such teachings many Christians think they can’t know for certain about these doctrines.
    3. The elect are Christians throughout the New Testament. Why would the elect be Jewish in Mat. 24? To support their doctrine the pre-tribbers make the elect strictly Jewish believers. Paul calls the Christians the elect throughout his writings. The pre-tribbers are using the word to mean only what they want it to mean.
    4. The brethren are Christian throughout the New Testament. If you’ve done it unto the least of these my brethren refers to Christians not Jews. Why would the brethren be Jewish in Matthew 25? Again the pre-tribbers want the word brethren to mean only Jewish believers. This is in contradiction to many places in the New Testament that shows Christians are the brethren of Christ.
    5. The pretribulation rapture view must create a new class of being called the tribulation saint. They are not Christian and they are not Jewish.
    6. The 144,000 Jewish would have to be evangelists, which is not found in scripture anywhere. Jesus commissioned the church to preach the gospel to the end of the age (Mat:28:19,20).
    7. The dispensation requirement that the church be removed prior to God dealing exclusively with Israel again is self-contradictory. They say God will deal exclusively with Israel and then say Israel will have 144,000 evangelists to evangelize the world. How does evangelizing all these gentiles lead to the conclusion that God is dealing exclusively with Israel?
    8. The preaching of the gospel is commissioned to the church. Christ said :Lo I am with you even to the end of the age. Some would say that the theology of the kingdom is preached in the last 7 years. This would create a whole new gospel. There is no other gospel which we should believe, even if an angel was to preach it to us.
    9. To explain the clear teaching of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 that the Day of the Lord will not come until the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed they make the entire 7 year period the Day of the Lord. The descriptions of the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament do not concur with this reasoning.
    10. To explain the clear teaching of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 that the apostasy will come before the man of sin is revealed some equate the apostasy to the rapture and make them the same thing.
    11. In the pre-tribulation rapture view the wrath of God would last for seven years. This is far too long for the wrath of almighty God to take.
    12. The man of sin operates with impunity during the seven-year period. This would mean that God was using this man to fulfill his wrath. This is fine until you see that this man's wrath is directed at the saint of God. This would mean the wrath of God is responsible for the martyrs and the Antichrist himself.
    13. The book of Revelation is addressed to the churches and the closing says that these messages are written to the churches. If the entire book is for the church why do some interpret that we are snatched out of the way in Rev. 4 with the allegory statement "Come up hither"?
    14. Jews beginning to operate under the law once more would nullify the finished work of Christ on the Cross.
    15. To teach that millions of people will be saved after the rapture is not scriptural. People will not have a second chance. The people of Noah’s day and Sodom and Gomorrah’s day did not have a second chance.
    16. The pre-tribulation view says the Holy Spirit as the restrainer is removed with the church. However there are many people saved during this seven year period. Does the Holy Spirit leave and then come back quickly? Does He lose His Power as the restrainer? Does He not indwell new believers?
    17. The pre-tribulation rapture view says there is no sign that must happen before the rapture. However they are constantly looking at all news reports and telling you that earthquakes, wars, religious unification, and government unification are all signs that the rapture is getting closer.

    In Conclusion:
    Pre-trib scholars seem to be able to "miraculously" differentiate any and all Scriptures that are not to be interpreted literally. They can also tell us which verses pertain to Israel exclusively, which apply to the Church exclusively, and why the Church CANNOT be present for God's dealing with Israel during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. They can tell you why the context Matthew 24 was addressed "to the Jews" and how the question asked by the disciples in verse 3 was actually a "Jewish question". They know when a verse is meant to be divided in order to convey two thoughts or questions as illustrated in their claim of Matt. 24:3: Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    The pre-trib belief is that the disciples were actually asking two separate questions when they asked "...and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?", and that this separation indicates the disciples' understanding that the Lord's coming and the end of the world are two separately distinctive events and time frames. And this perception is in spite of the literal expression of the verse! They know why the sequence of events in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation 6 through 14 are not for the church, in spite of the weight from Revelation 1:3 & 4 which states that this Revelation of Jesus Christ is addressed to the Churches and blessed is he that reads and keeps the words of this prophecy. These devoted interpreters of the literal Word have also determined that John's being called up to Heaven in Revelation 4:1-2 is actually an allegorizing of the rapture of the Church. Their point seems to be never mind what the Scriptures say literally, we can tell you what it means (or should be).

    They even know things that apply to the Trinity that aren't recorded or suggested in the scriptures, i.e., the role of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6. Again, they perform some fancy word study to interpret the word used to identify the restrainer as being a word of neutral gender, which could specify the Holy Spirit. With only that belief, the restrainer could be anyone with the power, authority, ability, or opportunity to restrain the antichrist prior to his being revealed! And since the antichrist isn't exposed until 31/2 years after the Church is supposedly raptured, why then is it necessary for the rapture to occur 31/2 years earlier? This is a mockery coming from the group that so often claims to literally interpret so many scriptures in their quest for doctrinal truth.

    These are just some of the problems created by the pre-tribulation rapture view. So when you hear it said that the pre-trib view has less contradictions in scripture remember what they do to the interpretation of scripture to make this statement.

    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  2. #2
    I thought this tongue-in-cheek letter by a Pastor adds a little humour to the discussion.



    An Open Letter to Tribulation Saints:



    - ©'99 - by R. Totten, M.Div.


    (The following is a "tongue-in-cheek" letter which wrongly assumes a Pre-Tribulational rapture can occur --thus, pointing out flaws in the pre-Trib position).

    Dearest Friends,

    I write this letter to be read in the time after the Pre-tribulation "rapture" has finally happened, and so, it is written to you who now find yourselves left behind on earth because you were not born again, and did not truly believe in Christ at the time of the rapture.

    The "rapture" was that event, you undoubtedly recall, when Christ removed all Christians from the earth to meet him in the clouds (1 Thes. 4:15-17), which this letter assumes has finally happened just before the seven-year time-period known as "the tribulation" (Mat. 24:21). As a pastor and teacher of the Bible, I feel some degree of responsibility to inform and prepare you concerning your situation, in which you will have to face the tough tribulational events now coming over the whole earth.

    Your predicament is quite serious, so this is very important: Try to find a Holy Bible (containing 66 books), which you must study and know well ---although that task will present some very thorny problems--- because if you are reading this at the beginning of the tribulation, then all of you "tribulation saints" are brand new "baby" believers in Christ. There are no older believers to help you in person, so, you'll have to survive on your own, without such a support group ...there is no true "Church" on earth... that's why I'm concerned to write to you.

    First, let me answer the question: "What exactly IS the Church?" The Bible calls it the "body of Christ" (Eph. 1:22,23), which we'll define as: all people everywhere who have trusted in Christ and his death on the cross to pay for their sins, who therefore have been united with Christ and placed into his mystical "body". ...Since the Church was removed at the pretrib rapture, and is not on earth during the tribulation, you believers in the tribulation are not part of the Church, the "body of Christ", even though you have trusted in Christ's death for you on the cross. During the Church-age (before the Tribulation), the instant a person truly believed in Christ, he was "baptized in one [Holy] Spirit into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13), which was Christ's body, the Church. However, since the Church-age ended with the start of the tribulation, you are not part of the Church, and so, you can not possibly be baptized in the Holy Spirit, so, you also have no spiritual gifts, which belong to the Church. ...In addition, each Church-era believer was indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9), as Jesus said, the Spirit "lives with you and will be in you" (Jn. 14:17). But, in an article in Moody Monthly magazine (Oct., 1985, p.91), pre-tribulationist Kenneth G. Hanna said tribulation saints, such as you, will neither be baptized in the Holy Spirit, nor indwelt by Him. ...For all believers during the Church-age, our spiritual situation or "position" was what the apostle Paul called being "IN" Christ (Eph. 1:3), but, you tribulation saints cannot be "IN Christ," because you are not part of Christ's body. These things were unique to the Church-age, which ended with the pretrib rapture, when the tribulation began.

    Thus, here are some implications for you tribulation saints: In your study of the Bible, there is only somewhat limited help for you, because the Old Testament was not addressed to you but to Israel, and the New Testament was basically for the Church. Perhaps of some help are small parts of the gospels, and a few other snippets from the New Testament, however, those portions of the Bible that are addressed to the Church, or teach about the Body of Christ, are basically only of academic interest to you, but are of little implicational benefit to your lives, for example:
    I mentioned Ephesians: It was written to those "IN Christ" (in his body, the Church), and its main theme is what is OURS (not yours). ...Therefore, all the following things are not promised to you tribulation saints who are not "IN" Christ's body, the Church: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Eph. 1:7); "in him we were also chosen" (1:11); we are "sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (1:13); we are "raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenly realms" (2:6); in Christ, we gain the promises of God (2:3); we are reconciled to God (2:6); with believing Israelites, we are God's people (2:19); we are heirs together with Israel (3:6); we can approach God with confidence (3:12); we have unity of the Spirit and one body (4:3); we have evangelists, pastors and teachers (4:11); we have spiritual armour in Christ (6:8-10). All these things were specially given to those "IN" Christ, who are the Church ...which, sadly, you are not.

    ----That, then, was just an example of how you tribulation saints must work your way through the Bible, hoping you may still find a few gleanings of promises to get you through the very hard times of the tribulation. If you're a Gentile, then you are not part of the Church, and you're not a Jew, so it is questionable what Bible-promises apply to you. Of course, you can still pray to a merciful God, based on his gracious nature, -----but, alas, prayer is also based on our acceptability to God "IN Christ".

    All of this is not too encouraging, I know, but I felt obligated to write to you, to leave you some explanation, so you could understand why you are so powerless against the devil and the flesh, as Paul says, "in him you ...put off the sinful nature" (Col. 2:11). Maybe you'll see why there is so little peace in your hearts and minds, which is found "in Christ Jesus" (Php. 4:7). Since you tribulation saints cannot possibly be "in Christ," (because only the Church is "in Him"), I just thought this would help you at least make some sense of it all. Even though you do not have "the blessed hope" (the pre-trib rapture), try to keep your chins up as you somehow muddle through the next few years until Christ's glorious appearing. ...See you at Armageddon.

    ...In Christ (me, not you), - Pastor Totten

    Post Script The above letter is obviously "tongue-in-cheek". However, I would urge and challenge Bible teachers of the pre-trib (or mid-trib) rapture persuasion to come to the aid of such "tribulation saints" (supposedly not the Church), and help them in their terribly distressing situation. If pre-trib theology is true, how could such people even be saved? Please leave these poor fellows a written example of the Bible teaching and gospel message they should share during a tribulation when one could not accept or invite Christ (through the Holy Spirit) "into" one's heart, since (according to pre-trib teachers) the Holy Spirit will not indwell anybody on earth. The agency by which Christ dwells in our hearts is by the Holy Spirit. How is it possible for someone to be "saved" and also NOT be in Christ, since it is in Christ that we are crucified, dead, buried, raised (Rom. 6:1-10) and justified (Gal. 2:17)? Only the Church is "in" Christ. Is it God's plan to back out and renege on the scriptural offer of such a great salvation available "in" Christ? Such a notion would have to be well demonstrated and supported in scripture, ----but instead, it is soundly contradicted by God's Word.

    If by such sheer necessity, it is admitted that saved persons must be "in Christ," then the Bible says that such persons must be part of the body of Christ (which is the clear teaching of Paul ---see Eph.2:16), where the body of Christ is the Church (Eph.1:22-23). So, it is unavoidable that the Church will and must be present on earth during the great tribulation, ---and indeed, we do find tribulational saints who die "IN the Lord" Jesus during the great tribulation (Rev.14:13), having resisted the Antichrist and his mark. ----Since the Church (the body of Christ) is clearly on earth during the tribulation, then this fact removes one of the main reasons given for why there must be a rapture before the tribulation.

    Since the tribulational "wrath" of God is a big concern, remember that the tribulation saints are blood-bought believers (Rev.7:14), "in the Lord," who can no more be subject to God's wrath than any churchly saint before the tribulation. No, it is only the wrath of man and the Devil that will touch the tribulation saints . . .as is even true with saints before the tribulation.

    EXHORTATION - Let the Church focus on growing very close and obedient to the Lord Jesus, serving him in fulfilling the Great Commission ; honestly studying the Word ; prayerfully preparing our hearts for the tough and deceptive times the appear to soon be coming over the earth ; not hoping for a pre-trib evacuation from earth (that will not occur) ; not instilling the false hope of it into young unsuspecting believers, setting them up for a crisis of faith and a possible fall ; ...and not giving inquirers into the faith a strong reason to reject the credibility and inerrancy of the Bible, after many recognize the Antichrist is ruling on earth and the rapture did not occur beforehand.
    "ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32).

    http://www.evangelicaltruth.com/

    WPM

  3. #3
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    Many have heard of the faith and courage of Torrie ten Boom. She lived to tell about her time spent in a Nazi Concentration camp, where her sister died.
    Corrie's only "crime" was that she loved and helped hide the Jewish people as the Nazi's were hunting them and killing them under Hitler's orders. Here is a letter she wrote in 1974. A lot here to think about!

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    The world is deathly ill. It is dying. The Great Physician has already signed the death certificate. Yet there is still a great work for Christians to do. They are to be streams of living water, channels of mercy to those who are still in the world. It is possible for them to do this because they are overcomers.

    Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.

    My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.

    We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” We too, are to be overcomers—bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

    Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages. I can now come to shouting “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things: and I will be His God, and he shall be My son.” This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

    Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. “Yes, the Lord will heal me,”, Betsy said with confidence. She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

    It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy’s death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.

    There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China, the Christians were told, “Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured.” Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, “We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes – to stand and not faint.”

    I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it. We are next.

    Since I have already gone through prison for Jesus’ sake, and since I met the Bishop in China, now every time I read a good Bible text I think, “Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation.” Then I write it down and learn it by heart.

    When I was in the concentration camp, a camp where only twenty percent of the women came out alive, we tried to cheer each other up by saying, “Nothing could be any worse than today.” But we would find the next day was even worse. During this time a Bible verse that I had committed to memory gave me great hope and joy. “If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you; on their part evil is spoken of, but on your part He is glorified.” (I Peter 3:14) I found myself saying, “Hallelujah! Because I am suffering, Jesus is glorified!”

    In America, the churches sing, “Let the congregation escape tribulation”, but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.

    Several years ago I was in Africa in a nation where a new government had come into power. The first night I was there some of the Christians were commanded to come to the police station to register. When they arrived they were arrested and that same night they were executed. The next day the same thing happened with other Christians. The third day it was the same. All the Christians in the district were being systematically murdered.

    The fourth day I was to speak in a little church. The people came, but they were filled with fear and tension. All during the service they were looking at each other, their eyes asking, “Will this one I am sitting beside be the next one killed? Will I be the next one?”

    The room was hot and stuffy with insects that came through the screenless windows and swirled around the naked bulbs over the bare wooden benches. I told them a story out of my childhood.

    “When I was a little girl, “ I said, “I went to my father and said, “Daddy, I am afraid that I will never be strong enough to be a marty for Jesus Christ.” “Tell me,” said Father, “When you take a train trip to Amsterdam, when do I give you the money for the ticket? Three weeks before?” “No, Daddy, you give me the money for the ticket just before we get on the train.” “That is right,” my father said, “and so it is with God’s strength. Our Father in Heaven knows when you will need the strength to be a martyr for Jesus Christ. He will supply all you need—just in time…”

    My African friends were nodding and smiling. Suddenly a spirit of joy descended upon that church and the people began singing, “ In the sweet, by and by, we shall meet on that beautiful shore.” Later that week, half the congregation of that church was executed. I heard later that the other half was killed some months ago.

    But I must tell you something. I was so happy that the Lord used me to encourage these people, for unlike many of their leaders, I had the word of God. I had been to the Bible and discovered that Jesus said He had not only overcome the world, but to all those who remained faithful to the end, He would give a crown of life.

    How can we get ready for the persecution? First we need to feed on the word of God, digest it, make it a part of our being. This will mean disciplined Bible study each day as we not only memorize long passages of scripture, but put the principles to work in our lives.

    Next we need to develop a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not just the Jesus of yesterday, the Jesus of History, but the life-changing Jesus of today who is still alive and sitting at the right hand of God.

    We must be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is no optional command of the Bible, it is absolutely necessary. Those earthly disciples could never have stood up under the persecution of the Jews and Romans had they not waited for Pentecost. Each of us needs our own personal Pentecost, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We will never be able to stand in the tribulation without it.

    In the coming persecution we must be ready to help each other and encourage each other. But we must not wait until the tribulation comes before starting. The fruit of the Spirit should be the dominant force of every Christian’s life.

    Many are fearful of the coming tribulation, they want to run. I, too, and a little bit afraid when I think that after all my eighty years, including the horrible nazi concentration camp, that I might have to go through the tribulation also. But then I read the Bible and I am glad.

    When I am weak, then I shall be strong, the Bible says. Betsy and I were prisoners for the Lord; we were so weak, but we got power because the Holy Spirit was on us. That mighty inner strengthening of the Holy Spirit helped us through. No, you will not be strong in yourself when the tribulation comes. Rather, you will be strong in the power of Him who will not forsake you. For seventy-six years I have known the Lord Jesus and not once has He ever left me, or let me down. Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him, for I know that to all who overcome, He shall give the crown of life. Hallelujah!

    —Corrie Ten Boom-1974

    This letter was taken from a post at The Hiding Place Message Board.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  4. #4
    Setting the pre, post, mid arguments aside, I agree about how we should be preparing to endure any tribulation, "the great" or otherwise. I for one am not a pre-tribber, but I still hold the "prepare for the tribulation, hope for a rapture out" stance.


    And thanks for sharing the post by Corrie Ten Boom. I read The Hiding Place at least twice a year.


  5. #5
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    Ive had a great time reading this thread, reps to all.

  6. #6
    Heya... Although I have mostly held to the pre-trib view since my salvation eighteen years ago, I have been seriously rethinking it over the past few years. I am not convinced, and I have noted the inconsistencies that you've pointed out here.

    I'd like to believe that we'll all be rescued in a pre-trib rapture, but..... it may not happen. I think Christians need to be prepared.

    God bless.

    Jen

  7. #7
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    Here is something else...what makes us think that we can escape when all of the Apostles of Jesus went through terrible suffering, and died because of the gospel they preached?

    This link tells how Jesus' Apostles all died. Its worth seeing!

    How the Apostles of Jesus Christ died
    A brief collection of the cause and manner of death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

    How dare us think we are better than these men and more worthy to escape.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

  8. #8
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    Strong points indeed Diggindeeper! Wow, really makes you think.

    More reps4u.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  9. #9
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    how could the tribulation they endured get any greater?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    Listed here are a few of the problems created by the pre-trib rapture.
    I thought points 7 and 13 were very well put.

    To answer point 16's question, pre-trib teachers believe in a reverse of Pentecost. I'd like to know if all pre-tribbers know that about their belief...

    See my simple evidence against a pre-trib rapture here.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    Here is something else...what makes us think that we can escape when all of the Apostles of Jesus went through terrible suffering, and died because of the gospel they preached?

    This link tells how Jesus' Apostles all died. Its worth seeing!

    How the Apostles of Jesus Christ died
    A brief collection of the cause and manner of death of the Apostles of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

    How dare us think we are better than these men and more worthy to escape.
    Since I have never heard a pre-tribber say they will not have to suffer persecution, this sounds like a strawman argument.

  12. #12
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    If "tribulation saints" will not be part of the church then that would mean passages like the following would not be apply directly to "tribulation saints".

    Romans 12
    1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
    2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
    3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
    4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
    5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
    6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
    7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
    8Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

    Tribulation saints will not be members of the one body in Christ? They will not have spiritual gifts? How could that be? If they are not part of the one body in Christ that would mean they are part of a second body? Where does scripture teach anything about that?

    Ephesians 2
    13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    Tribulation saints would not be part of the household of God that is being built "unto an holy temple in the Lord" and whose chief corner stone is Jesus Christ? How can that be? Why would they not be added unto the building with the rest of us?

    Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    Everyone who has been saved up until now has been added to the church. But tribulation saints would be saved and not added to the church? Why?

    1 Cor 6
    1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
    2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
    3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
    4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

    Notice that Paul uses the terms "the saints" and "the church" synonymously here as he also does elsewhere. So, why don't the following passages refer to the church?

    Rev 13
    7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
    9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
    10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    Rev 14
    12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillforgiven View Post
    I for one am not a pre-tribber, but I still hold the "prepare for the tribulation, hope for a rapture out" stance.
    Would you not rather die standing up and fighting for his cause rather than being wisked away from the battle.......The battle is what we are being trained whether in life or death.

    I would rather go to heaven knowing I was able to give it all.

    Mark

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    In another thread in End Times someone said, "It is time to actually address the many inconsistencies in the writings of these Pretrib teachers." And I agree.

    I recently came across this, and thought it worth sharing. It does not have a copyright date, but was compiled by James Underwood and Mike Rouse. I say the two men are right on target about problems and inconsistances in the teaching.


    It has been stated in some of the pre-tribulation writings that the pre-tribulation rapture has less contradictions than any other system. Listed here are a few of the problems created by the pre-trib rapture.

    1. The interpretation of scripture by the pre-tribulation rapturist is literal but not literal enough. The last trump is not really the last trump to them. The words spoken to the disciples in Mat: 24 are because they are Jewish. They jump from scripture to scripture but do not let scriptures flow together. They allegorize the statement "Come up hither" to mean this is the rapture.
    2. To support the pre-trib rapture many teach that there will be two future comings of our Lord, up to seven resurrections, four to seven judgements, and two chosen peoples. As a result of such teachings many Christians think they can’t know for certain about these doctrines.
    3. The elect are Christians throughout the New Testament. Why would the elect be Jewish in Mat. 24? To support their doctrine the pre-tribbers make the elect strictly Jewish believers. Paul calls the Christians the elect throughout his writings. The pre-tribbers are using the word to mean only what they want it to mean.
    4. The brethren are Christian throughout the New Testament. If you’ve done it unto the least of these my brethren refers to Christians not Jews. Why would the brethren be Jewish in Matthew 25? Again the pre-tribbers want the word brethren to mean only Jewish believers. This is in contradiction to many places in the New Testament that shows Christians are the brethren of Christ.
    5. The pretribulation rapture view must create a new class of being called the tribulation saint. They are not Christian and they are not Jewish.
    6. The 144,000 Jewish would have to be evangelists, which is not found in scripture anywhere. Jesus commissioned the church to preach the gospel to the end of the age (Mat:28:19,20).
    7. The dispensation requirement that the church be removed prior to God dealing exclusively with Israel again is self-contradictory. They say God will deal exclusively with Israel and then say Israel will have 144,000 evangelists to evangelize the world. How does evangelizing all these gentiles lead to the conclusion that God is dealing exclusively with Israel?
    8. The preaching of the gospel is commissioned to the church. Christ said :Lo I am with you even to the end of the age. Some would say that the theology of the kingdom is preached in the last 7 years. This would create a whole new gospel. There is no other gospel which we should believe, even if an angel was to preach it to us.
    9. To explain the clear teaching of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 that the Day of the Lord will not come until the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed they make the entire 7 year period the Day of the Lord. The descriptions of the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament do not concur with this reasoning.
    10. To explain the clear teaching of 2 Thes. 2:1-12 that the apostasy will come before the man of sin is revealed some equate the apostasy to the rapture and make them the same thing.
    11. In the pre-tribulation rapture view the wrath of God would last for seven years. This is far too long for the wrath of almighty God to take.
    12. The man of sin operates with impunity during the seven-year period. This would mean that God was using this man to fulfill his wrath. This is fine until you see that this man's wrath is directed at the saint of God. This would mean the wrath of God is responsible for the martyrs and the Antichrist himself.
    13. The book of Revelation is addressed to the churches and the closing says that these messages are written to the churches. If the entire book is for the church why do some interpret that we are snatched out of the way in Rev. 4 with the allegory statement "Come up hither"?
    14. Jews beginning to operate under the law once more would nullify the finished work of Christ on the Cross.
    15. To teach that millions of people will be saved after the rapture is not scriptural. People will not have a second chance. The people of Noah’s day and Sodom and Gomorrah’s day did not have a second chance.
    16. The pre-tribulation view says the Holy Spirit as the restrainer is removed with the church. However there are many people saved during this seven year period. Does the Holy Spirit leave and then come back quickly? Does He lose His Power as the restrainer? Does He not indwell new believers?
    17. The pre-tribulation rapture view says there is no sign that must happen before the rapture. However they are constantly looking at all news reports and telling you that earthquakes, wars, religious unification, and government unification are all signs that the rapture is getting closer.

    In Conclusion:
    Pre-trib scholars seem to be able to "miraculously" differentiate any and all Scriptures that are not to be interpreted literally. They can also tell us which verses pertain to Israel exclusively, which apply to the Church exclusively, and why the Church CANNOT be present for God's dealing with Israel during the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy. They can tell you why the context Matthew 24 was addressed "to the Jews" and how the question asked by the disciples in verse 3 was actually a "Jewish question". They know when a verse is meant to be divided in order to convey two thoughts or questions as illustrated in their claim of Matt. 24:3: Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    The pre-trib belief is that the disciples were actually asking two separate questions when they asked "...and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?", and that this separation indicates the disciples' understanding that the Lord's coming and the end of the world are two separately distinctive events and time frames. And this perception is in spite of the literal expression of the verse! They know why the sequence of events in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation 6 through 14 are not for the church, in spite of the weight from Revelation 1:3 & 4 which states that this Revelation of Jesus Christ is addressed to the Churches and blessed is he that reads and keeps the words of this prophecy. These devoted interpreters of the literal Word have also determined that John's being called up to Heaven in Revelation 4:1-2 is actually an allegorizing of the rapture of the Church. Their point seems to be never mind what the Scriptures say literally, we can tell you what it means (or should be).

    They even know things that apply to the Trinity that aren't recorded or suggested in the scriptures, i.e., the role of the Holy Spirit as the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6. Again, they perform some fancy word study to interpret the word used to identify the restrainer as being a word of neutral gender, which could specify the Holy Spirit. With only that belief, the restrainer could be anyone with the power, authority, ability, or opportunity to restrain the antichrist prior to his being revealed! And since the antichrist isn't exposed until 31/2 years after the Church is supposedly raptured, why then is it necessary for the rapture to occur 31/2 years earlier? This is a mockery coming from the group that so often claims to literally interpret so many scriptures in their quest for doctrinal truth.

    These are just some of the problems created by the pre-tribulation rapture view. So when you hear it said that the pre-trib view has less contradictions in scripture remember what they do to the interpretation of scripture to make this statement.

    Love it! The dead in Christ shall rise first.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Would you not rather die standing up and fighting for his cause rather than being wisked away from the battle.......The battle is what we are being trained whether in life or death.

    I would rather go to heaven knowing I was able to give it all.

    Mark
    You have a good point. This of course assumes we live to the final battle, and ultimately we all have our own personal "final battles". It seems more likely that we will fight and suffer rather than be rescued, or we'll be the only group of Chrisitians in history (to my knowledge) who haven't had to fight.

    To answer your question, I would prefer to go fighting.


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