Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 51

Thread: If Pre-Trib is wrong, how does Post-Trib reconcile Matthew 24:44

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    La Jolla
    Posts
    46

    If Pre-Trib is wrong, how does Post-Trib reconcile Matthew 24:44

    I have problems with each of the trib views as they all seem to be full of holes. However, I lean the most towards Pre-Trib, not because of some sort of delusion to escape persecution, but because of all the verses in the Bible that say that Jesus will come again when we least expect it. Then again, I don't know much about the Post-Trib position. So, if someone could explain things to me, I'd greatly appreciate it .

    "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).

    If Jesus was going to come back at the end of the tribulation, nobody would be surprised. We could either count 2556 days from the start of the tribulation, or 1278 from the half-tribulation mark.

    EDIT: Sorry forgot to complete my thought.
    EDIT2 (clarification): Also, I realize that there is a very similar thread right under this one right now, but my question is more pointed. i.e. how can we be surprised at a non-pre-trib return

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,611
    The context of 24:44 was given to us 15 verses earlier...

    24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:0 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    .
    .
    .24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."


    What context does the scriptures themselves tell us His coming will be?

    Before the tribulation, or After the tribulation?

    Once we see the context, then we can also take heart, in knowing that we as Christians won't be surprised or caught off guard....why?

    Because the warning is for non-Christians, who aren't ready and watching.

    Again in context, the good servant is watching, ready, and expectant....just as we should be; as contrasted against the wicked, unready servant.

    The very next verse explains it...

    24:44 "herefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6)
    Posts
    14,927
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSlash View Post
    I have problems with each of the trib views as they all seem to be full of holes. However, I lean the most towards Pre-Trib, not because of some sort of delusion to escape persecution, but because of all the verses in the Bible that say that Jesus will come again when we least expect it. Then again, I don't know much about the Post-Trib position. So, if someone could explain things to me, I'd greatly appreciate it .

    "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).
    Jesus says a similar thing earlier:

    Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    And also in Matthew 25:13

    13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    When does He say that His coming will occur as it relates to the tribulation?

    Matt 24
    29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Can you see that Matthew 24:44 is speaking of His coming after the tribulation?

    If Jesus was going to come back at the end of the tribulation, nobody would be surprised. We could either count 2556 days from the start of the tribulation, or 1278 from the half-tribulation mark.

    EDIT: Sorry forgot to complete my thought.
    EDIT2 (clarification): Also, I realize that there is a very similar thread right under this one right now, but my question is more pointed. i.e. how can we be surprised at a non-pre-trib return
    Can you tell me exactly when the tribulation will start? I tend to doubt that. But Jesus said that while we don't know the day or hour we can know when summer is near, which means we can know when His coming is near. Only believers. Not unbelievers. It's just like what Paul talked about:

    1 Thess 5
    1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

    Notice that Paul says believers will not be taken completely off guard by His coming as unbelievers will. He says to watch and be sober. Jesus said the same thing, to watch and be ready. It's not that we know the day or hour of His coming, but we are watching and expecting Him to come. Unbelievers are not. So, to them His coming will be completely unexpected. Not so for us.

  4. #4
    The good servant is to watch as in the signs that would come first, then he would know the hour and not be surprised as a thief. Rev. 3:3 lays out the same scenario.

    "...If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour..."
    The watching the signs people can tell the hour is near.


    Luke 21:28
    "...when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
    The things have to come to pass first, including the great tribulation.
    v25
    "And there shall be signs in the sun, and the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations...the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

    Jesus is not coming back till the time of the 7th trumpet, when the two witnesses rise at the same hour as the third woe (earthquake).
    Rev. 11 - where an angel is prophesying and John is listening.

  5. #5
    Put just these two verses alone together, and what does it show?

    Luke 14:14 and Rev. 11:18
    (7th trumpet is when the dead of the just will be resurrected and rewarded)

    When does Daniel 12 reveal that Daniel would no longer be resting?
    at the end of the days
    at the end of the 1290 days

    then would come another time lasting 45 days (the vials of God's wrath)

  6. #6
    Hi^

    As to your comments as to "nobody would be surprised", consider what happens just before the Rev. 11 two witnesses are to rise from the dead. The angel is telling a story to John, and lets him know what the wicked will be doing after the two witnesses have been slain by the beast.

    sending gifts to one another

    But their hoop it up party time will end when Jesus comes upon them as a thief.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,316
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSlash View Post
    I have problems with each of the trib views as they all seem to be full of holes. However, I lean the most towards Pre-Trib, not because of some sort of delusion to escape persecution, but because of all the verses in the Bible that say that Jesus will come again when we least expect it. Then again, I don't know much about the Post-Trib position. So, if someone could explain things to me, I'd greatly appreciate it .

    "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).

    If Jesus was going to come back at the end of the tribulation, nobody would be surprised. We could either count 2556 days from the start of the tribulation, or 1278 from the half-tribulation mark.

    ... my question is... how can we be surprised at a non-pre-trib return?
    Yes, I think respondants have well covered Matt.24. The Post-Trib position is almost as varied and diverse among its proponents as the other positions, but one need not conclude that the timing of such is any more restrictive than that of the Pre-Trib, nor that a Post-Trib position necessitates any as yet unseen event. Much depends on just how one defines and describes the Great Tribulation in both its physical and spiritual aspects as being either now or later. That's why many amillennialists often find some common ground with either postmillenialists or premillennialists.

  8. #8
    The post-trib position requires that the other 6 trumpets and the first six seal openings happen before Jesus returns.

    Job 14:12,14 reveals that Job knew man won't be rising, getting his change either - till a time that comes after the heavens be no more.

    6th seal - heaven departs
    God's wrath begins - just as in Rev. 11:18 - up to the point of the 7th trumpet (the nations were angry) as in they are to blame. God is then told to "destroy them which destroy the earth". If God was to blame - as His wrath slew the two witneses of the 6th trumpet time, then come trumpet 7 and God would destroy Himself.
    "destroy them which destroy the earth"

    God will at the 7th trumpet begin to destroy the nations that came against Israel and the church.

    Put a couple of other verses together and what do we gain from that combo?
    2 Timothy 4:1 shows the Jesus will appear to judge the dead.
    Rev. 11:18 (7th trumpet) "time of the dead, that they should be judged"
    God won't be judging the people in the grave till this trumpet - He had yet to make a distinction as to lost and saved of the dead.

    Luke 14:14
    "....thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."
    Rev. 11:18 (7th trumpet) "give reward unto thy servants"
    the prophets/ the saints
    Doesn't say the 144,000 that some say go preaching everywhere, which is impossible for the tribes are in blindness, till the entire bunch of Gentiles comes in.

    John 5:29 shows one resurrection of the just time.
    "And shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life..."
    If you have a pre-trib coming of the Lord, then the trib martyrs slain would not have any hope of another resurrection to life.

    1 Cor. 15:54 shows the same thing - at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound - as shown in v52
    "death is swallowed up in victory" (from v54)

    There won't again be victory from the grave. The last trumpet ushers in the final soul from the grave that will ever have eternal life.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    La Jolla
    Posts
    46
    As far as the trumpet goes that is mentioned in Corinthians...are people sure that he's actually referring to Revelation? Wasn't Revelation written after Corinthians, and how could Paul have written about something that hadn't been revealed yet?

    Sorry for the questions, I'm just trying to understand each side.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6)
    Posts
    14,927
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSlash View Post
    As far as the trumpet goes that is mentioned in Corinthians...are people sure that he's actually referring to Revelation? Wasn't Revelation written after Corinthians, and how could Paul have written about something that hadn't been revealed yet?
    Paul wrote about the second coming of Christ. Does that mean Revelation 19:11-21 is not referring to the second coming of Christ? I hope you see my point.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    La Jolla
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Paul wrote about the second coming of Christ. Does that mean Revelation 19:11-21 is not referring to the second coming of Christ? I hope you see my point.
    I don't =/. Could you elaborate a little, maybe? To reiterate, my question is:

    Are people sure that the trumpet Paul is referring to is the same trumpet described by John in Revelation, even though Revelation was written (revealed) later?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6)
    Posts
    14,927
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSlash View Post
    I don't =/. Could you elaborate a little, maybe? To reiterate, my question is:

    Are people sure that the trumpet Paul is referring to is the same trumpet described by John in Revelation, even though Revelation was written (revealed) later?
    I'm trying to show that it doesn't matter that Revelation was written later. Should we conclude that when Paul wrote about the second coming of Christ he was not writing about what is described in Rev 19:11-21 since Revelation was written later? See what I mean?

    If the last trumpet can't be the same as the seventh trumpet just because Revelation was written after 1 Corinthians then does that mean when Paul mentioned the second coming of Christ he was speaking of a different coming of Christ then that portrayed in Revelation 19:11-21? Of course not, right? I'm trying to show you what can happen when we try to use the kind of logic you're using. Let me know if you need me to clarify further.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    La Jolla
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I'm trying to show that it doesn't matter that Revelation was written later. Should we conclude that when Paul wrote about the second coming of Christ he was not writing about what is described in Rev 19:11-21 since Revelation was written later? See what I mean?

    If the last trumpet can't be the same as the seventh trumpet just because Revelation was written after 1 Corinthians then does that mean when Paul mentioned the second coming of Christ he was speaking of a different coming of Christ then that portrayed in Revelation 19:11-21? Of course not, right? I'm trying to show you what can happen when we try to use the kind of logic you're using. Let me know if you need me to clarify further.
    That's what I thought, but isn't the difference that the second coming of Christ was prophesied elsewhere?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:6)
    Posts
    14,927
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSlash View Post
    That's what I thought, but isn't the difference that the second coming of Christ was prophesied elsewhere?
    What do you mean?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    La Jolla
    Posts
    46
    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    What do you mean?
    I mean, wasn't the second coming of Christ already talked about/prophesied before Corinthians (i.e. wasn't he just repeating something already known)? The seven trumpets were unknown until they were revealed to John, and they weren't revealed until after Paul had written Corinthians.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Bespreking Wegraping: Pre-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath...of geen?
    By Vertigus in forum Gesprek oor die Eindtye en Aktuele sake
    Replies: 96
    Last Post: Jun 18th 2014, 05:38 PM
  2. Discussion How does mid or post-trib disprove pre-trib?
    By talmidim in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: Jun 3rd 2009, 03:59 AM
  3. Pre-trib, Post-trib, Mid-Trib Rapture Scripture
    By LaurieF in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: May 31st 2009, 01:01 PM
  4. Questions out of Revelation (mid-trib or post trib only please)
    By JesusMySavior in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Mar 6th 2009, 02:52 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •