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Thread: Is the GAP mentioned in Daniel 12?

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    Is the GAP mentioned in Daniel 12?

    Historicists say that the 70 sevens of Daniel 9 have been fulfilled. Most say this occurred about 33 AD, 3.5 years after the crucifixion.

    Most "Futurists" say that the last seven year period is still to come, there is a gap in the 490 year timeline. I am a futurist , but I say that 3.5 years is still to come, the first 3.5 years was fulfilled by Jesus.

    If the futurists are right, what event would start this gap, and what event would end this gap?

    I would say the crucifixion would start the gap, this is when the way of salvation was given to ALL men, both Jew and Gentile. The church age is no longer specifically for the Jews.

    What event would finish this gap? I would say this is when the gospel has reached all nations, and there is that 3.5 years of protection of Israel, and persecution of the saints (Rev 12). This is the same period of the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem, and also there is mentioned a future period when the full number of gentiles has come in, Israel is partly blind until then:

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    What great sign is there to warn us about the last 3.5 years of tribulation, when Israel is kept safe , the full number of gentiles has come in (the partial blindness of the Jews is lifted), and the two witnesses preach in Jerusalem?

    It is the abomination in Jerusalem that is that great sign that Jesus warns us about, this starts the last 3.5 year period, this ends the Gentile gap in the Jewish 490 year destiny.

    NOW, let us read Daniel 12:11 in the light of this starting point and ending point of the age of God's grace to the gentiles: Note this is the angels answer to the time period until the end :
    12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    It can be read like this: From the age that starts with the daily sacrifice taken away (crucifixion) and ends when the abomination that makes desolate is set up (the future antichrist) , there will be 1290 days until the end. I believe that this is where the gentile "gap" in the 490 year timeline is mentioned.
    Last edited by DurbanDude; Sep 9th 2009 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Some highlighting

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    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    Historicists say that the 70 sevens of Daniel 9 have been fulfilled. Most say this occurred about 33 AD, 3.5 years after the crucifixion.
    Not "about" Durb. September 33AD.
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    God "determining" a time limit (70 sevens, i.e. 490 years) then putting it on hold when it's nearly complete defeats the purpose of God having set the time limit to begin with. Why set a time limit if he can't fulfill his will within that time limit?

    Noah's flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights, as he was told beforehand. The Hebrews spent 400 years in Egypt, as they were told beforehand. The Jews spent 70 years in captivity, as they were told beforehand. Every other instance in which Scripture prophesies about a "determined" amount of time for something to take place, it is always fulfilled absolutely sequentially, without exception.

    Nothing in Scripture explicitly or implicitly speaks of a gap that takes place in the 70 sevens. For anyone to claim that there is a gap, and not have a single shred of evidence in favor of it, contradicts the consistency of Scripture's time limit-setting prophecies. (Grabbing something like Daniel 12's 1335 days and saying "might this be it?" doesn't count as evidence.)

    The prophecy of the 70 sevens is about the coming of the Christ and the Covenant he made with many, making an end to the temple sacrifices... not some antichrist.
    Last edited by markedward; Sep 9th 2009 at 06:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    God "determining" a time limit (70 sevens, i.e. 490 years) then putting it on hold when it's nearly complete defeats the purpose of God having set the time limit to begin with. Why set a time limit if he can't fulfill his will within that time limit?
    Good question. I don't believe He would do that. Also, it says that the Messiah would be cut off after the first 69 weeks were finished. So, why wouldn't that mean He would be cut off during the 70th week? Why should we think that His death on the cross would not actually fall within any of the 70 weeks?

    Noah's flood lasted 40 days and 40 nights, as he was told beforehand. The Hebrews spent 400 years in Egypt, as they were told beforehand. The Jews spent 70 years in captivity, as they were told beforehand. Every other instance in which Scripture prophesies about a "determined" amount of time for something to take place, it is always fulfilled absolutely sequentially, without exception.
    Very true.

    Nothing in Scripture explicitly or implicitly speaks of a gap that takes place in the 70 sevens. For anyone to claim that there is a gap, and not have a single shred of evidence in favor of it, contradicts the consistency of Scripture's time limit-setting prophecies. (Grabbing something like Daniel 12's 1335 days and saying "might this be it?" doesn't count as evidence.)
    Agree.

    The prophecy of the 70 sevens is about the coming of the Christ and the Covenant he made with many, making an end to the temple sacrifices... not some antichrist.
    Again, I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Not "about" Durb. September 33AD.
    I will have to see if you replied with your method of dating Conrnelius' conversion on that other thread. If you have no method of dating, you could be wrong with the date of Cornelius conversion, maybe it just did not occur in autumn of 33 AD and your whole theory would then be incorrect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    God "determining" a time limit (70 sevens, i.e. 490 years) then putting it on hold when it's nearly complete defeats the purpose of God having set the time limit to begin with. Why set a time limit if he can't fulfill his will within that time limit?
    .
    As I showed you in Daniel 12 , this is an answer about the timing of the end. The answer is an indefinite time period , followed by 1290 days. The 490 years is not described as sequential, this is just the period of siignificance for the Jews. The truth is that there is still sin in Jerusalem, so Daniel 9:24, (the end of the 490 years) can't be fulfilled.

    Nothing in Scripture explicitly or implicitly speaks of a gap that takes place in the 70 sevens. For anyone to claim that there is a gap, and not have a single shred of evidence in favor of it, contradicts the consistency of Scripture's time limit-setting prophecies. (Grabbing something like Daniel 12's 1335 days and saying "might this be it?" doesn't count as evidence.)
    I wasnt quoting it as evidence, just opening discussion

    What then is your interpretation of Daniel 12. It looks like a gap to me, the reason is that the ending of sacrifices points to Jesus crucifixion, then the timing jumps to the end of the 1290 days. The timing of the end is described as an indefinite period followed by the 1290 days.


    The prophecy of the 70 sevens is about the coming of the Christ and the Covenant he made with many, making an end to the temple sacrifices... not some antichrist
    Agree to disagree here, it is about the coming of Christ, and about the antichrist to come. That is why Daniel 9:26 mentions a ruler who will come. Who do you think that ruler is?
    Last edited by DurbanDude; Sep 10th 2009 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Edit

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    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    As I showed you in Daniel 12 , this is an answer about the timing of the end. The answer is an indefinite time period , followed by 1290 days. The 490 years is not described as sequential, this is just the period of siignificance for the Jews. The truth is that there is still sin in Jerusalem, so Daniel 9:24, (the end of the 490 years) can't be fulfilled.
    You obviously interpret "to make an end of sins" to mean a literal end of sin, but is that what it really means? I don't believe so. I believe it has to do with taking away the punishment for our sins. I believe the following passages speak about the fulfillment of making an end of sins:

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

    Hebrews 9
    24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
    26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hebrews 10
    11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Rom 6
    17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    You obviously interpret "to make an end of sins" to mean a literal end of sin, but is that what it really means? I don't believe so. I believe it has to do with taking away the punishment for our sins. I believe the following passages speak about the fulfillment of making an end of sins:

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

    Hebrews 9
    24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
    26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hebrews 10
    11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Rom 6
    17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    I hear you on this, and regard the historicist view on Daniel 9 as a legitimate possibility.

    I have too many objections though to even list them all.

    The main points are that I prefer a more literal interpretation of v24
    9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    I understand that the crucifixion can be seen to fulfil these events, but prefer a more literal interpretation. The problem is that the crucifixion occurred in year 486.5 , and not year 490, so this weakens the view. Even with the explanation that these fulfilments had to occur sometime within the 490 years , and not necessarily at the end, I feel the view is weakened.

    Also , the crucifixion can be dated, John's ministry can be dated, but the historicist view that Cornelius conversion or some other event completed the 490 years is an assumtion without any dates to back it up. So what event did complete the Jewish 490 year period? I feel it is incomplete because the crucifixion opened the way for the gentiles, and NOT Cornelius' conversion or anything similar, 3.5 years later.

    I know we will continue to disagree on this , but I do respect the historicist view, and am more in line with that, than the futurist view that somehow has the crucifixion as outside the 490 year period?? Or predicts a seven year peace treaty??

    This thread is just a point of discussion, obviously Daniel 12 is no proof of a gap, but would like a historicist perspective on Daniel 12, if you can?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude
    ... but the historicist view that Cornelius conversion or some other event completed the 490 years is an assumtion without any dates to back it up. So what event did complete the Jewish 490 year period? I feel it is incomplete because the crucifixion opened the way for the gentiles, and NOT Cornelius' conversion or anything similar, 3.5 years later.
    You are wrong here. I'll try to start a thread some time on chronology of the Acts but it is so muddled by datal errors and disinformation that Im not sure where to start.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    You are wrong here. I'll try to start a thread some time on chronology of the Acts but it is so muddled by datal errors and disinformation that Im not sure where to start.
    If there is a lot of muddling and datal errors and disinformation, I am sure your thread would not be conclusive anyway? Do you have a strong argument, or just some possibilities to narrow down that date of Cornelius' conversion?

    And what is your take on the opening post, Daniel 12:11?

    I definitely do see it as referring to an indefinite time period (relating to the church age), followed by a specific 3.5 year period.

    ie a break in the exactnesses of specific timing. there was specific timing of the 490 year period relating to the Jews, then there is this future period of 3.5 years, and Rev 12:11 is referring to this break as a separate indeterminate age that we in retrospect know applies to the gentiles.

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    Yes, I believe my arguments are strong but there are two powerful traditions (adventism and dispensationalism) who have vested interests in late crucifiction dates. This, in turn, impacts on Acts chronology.

    As for your opening arguement I have a different understanding on the ancient leap-year system - the 1260 plus 30 and the 1305 plus 30.

    Cyber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Yes, I believe my arguments are strong but there are two powerful traditions (adventism and dispensationalism) who have vested interests in late crucifiction dates. This, in turn, impacts on Acts chronology.

    As for your opening arguement I have a different understanding on the ancient leap-year system - the 1260 plus 30 and the 1305 plus 30.

    Cyber
    I believe in spring of 30 AD as the crucifixion date, so if we both agree on that assumption, can we go on from there? We don't need a new thread because the "gap or no gap" arguments are relevant to this thread.

    Well I was hoping to generate discussion here regarding others' views on Dan 12:11 as well. I don't understand your reference to leap years, could you explain?

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    DurbanDude wrote:
    It can be read like this: From the age that starts with the daily sacrifice taken away (crucifixion) and ends when the abomination that makes desolate is set up (the future antichrist) , there will be 1290 days until the end. I believe that this is where the gentile "gap" in the 490 year timeline is mentioned
    I don't think there is a gap. I believe the passages in Dan 12 are referring specifically to the ministry of Christ and contained within those years ending harmoniously with the 70 weeks.

    Read closely the following passages.

    Daniel 12:5
    . Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
    Daniel 12:6
    . One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"
    Daniel 12:7
    . The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."


    So, what is the angel saying in verse 7? I wouldn’t think it would be the future years starting from Daniels time until Jesus’ public ministry because a different angel had already proclaimed “70 weeks" in Chapter 9. Therefore, I think the angel is more specific and saying in verse 7, “All will be fulfilled during the length of time of Jesus’ public ministry.

    Similar example to make my point. Person A asked person B who would be the best pro football team in the world in 2010? Person B replies, “On February 3, 2010 in 4 hours (approximate length of playing time of the game) we will know the best pro football team in the world.


    So the angel in verse 7 in replying to the question asked of him is saying. “All will be fulfilled during the 3 ˝ years of the public ministry of Jesus.

    Therefore, I don't see a gap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudds View Post
    I don't think there is a gap. I believe the passages in Dan 12 are referring specifically to the ministry of Christ and contained within those years ending harmoniously with the 70 weeks.

    Read closely the following passages.

    Daniel 12:5. Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
    Daniel 12:6 . One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"
    Daniel 12:7 . The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."


    So, what is the angel saying in verse 7? I wouldn’t think it would be the future years starting from Daniels time until Jesus’ public ministry because a different angel had already proclaimed “70 weeks" in Chapter 9. Therefore, I think the angel is more specific and saying in verse 7, “All will be fulfilled during the length of time of Jesus’ public ministry.

    Similar example to make my point. Person A asked person B who would be the best pro football team in the world in 2010? Person B replies, “On February 3, 2010 in 4 hours (approximate length of playing time of the game) we will know the best pro football team in the world.


    So the angel in verse 7 in replying to the question asked of him is saying. “All will be fulfilled during the 3 ˝ years of the public ministry of Jesus.

    Therefore, I don't see a gap.
    Hi Sudds,

    If you read this prophecy right from Daniel 11, you can see that it concerns specifically the end times, from the antchrist of daniel 11:35 onwards, until the resurrection mentioned in Daniel 12:1.

    Thereafter the angel is discussing timing with Daniel. Now these events (the antichrist and the resurrection of those in the book) had not occurred yet by the end of Jesus' ministry (obviously) , but these are the end-times events being referred to in daniel 12.

    So I disagree with you, the "time, times and half a time and te 1290 day period both concern the future end times, and are not relted to Christ's ministry.

    I do believe however that the ending of sacrifices mentioned in v11 is referring to the crucifixion, so therefore Daniel 12:11 is about a very long period of time.

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    DurbanDude wrote:
    If you read this prophecy right from Daniel 11, you can see that it concerns specifically the end times, from the antchrist of daniel 11:35 onwards, until the resurrection mentioned in Daniel 12:1
    Hello Durban:

    I do see it different than you. I see some sort of resurrection of the people who lived and died before Jesus' resurrection starting with Daniel 9:10-11. When this occurred (Dan 12:1-4), the Christian Age began. And, it makes sense because the OT people had to become spiritually perfect as we (on the other side of the resurrection) becomes spiritually perfect. The blood of bulls and goats just didn't do it (Heb 10:4).

    Hebrews 11:39. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.
    Hebrews 11:40. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect


    When you do realize that there was a resurrection of the OT people, it changes many things, especially the meaning of the Olivet Discourse.

    I don't see an "Antichrist" at all in the passage you mentioned. However I do see the Christian age in Dan 11:33-35.

    You must also remember that Jesus fulfilled all of the OT. In fact, the whole context of the OT is God's redemptive plan for mankind. I don't see an Antichrist or anything else in the OT past the Day of Pentecost when the kingdom was ushered into the world.

    Luke 18:31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.

    I do believe however that the ending of sacrifices mentioned in v11 is referring to the crucifixion, so therefore Daniel 12:11 is about a very long period of time
    I do think the numbers in Dan 12:11-12 will reflect the ministry of Jesus and the number of days from the resurrection to the Day of Pentecost - if you deduct the days that belonged to Satan when Jesus surrendered to sin/death/Satan (II Corinthians 5:21).

    I do enjoy this study and appreciate your comments. I used to see this just the same as you.

    Thanks and let's keep up the study.......I certainly could be wrong, but I love to try to figure it all out.

    God Bless...
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