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Thread: Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension in the OT?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Those two examples seems like simile, metaphor, or something like that. But, for example, in Acts 2, when Peter refers to 2 Sam. 7, he swaps "Solomon" for "Jesus". Is that Midrash? Because in today's world, that wouldn't fly in a commentary, but it must have been completely legit in their day, as 3000 were saved at Peter's speech.



    Most all of these, similarly, are not about some future messiah figure. This is where I get all confused with how the NT authors treat the OT Scriptures. And because they did this concerning Jesus' first coming, I wonder what Revelation might actually be saying? Do you know what I mean? I do not think that they did these things "as apostles", as I've heard before - it had to have been common in their day, or no one would listen to them. But I want to be able to reproduce it from any Scripture, and not just from the few examples we're given. This is why I want to understand it. How I wish Luke had recorded the dialog on the road to Emmaus, or the teaching on the kingdom between Passover and Pentecost!
    This could be an interesting discussion, but may I suggest we deal with one passage at a time? Can you supply, for instance, the specific Acts 2 passage in which Peter swaps Jesus for Solomon? Let's talk about that passage first, then move on to some others.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sirus View Post
    Where's it say that?

    "those which the prophets and Moses did say should come"

    So if you are looking for it all in the book of Moses, you'll be looking a long, long, long time....til death or caught up.
    Not sure the point you're trying to make... It says Moses AND the Prophets, not Moses with the Prophets. This means both said the same thing concerning the Christ.
    You have that backwards!
    Some prophets said things others did not, and so forth.
    'With' would mean they said the same.
    If 'and' means the same is said it is because the context tells us so. It does not here.
    saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come
    You said
    "Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension were spoken of by all the prophets"
    Where do you get the idea that all the prophets spoke about 'Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension?'

    So my point is, if Moses did not speak of one aspect of the complete and finished work of Christ then you won't find it in Moses, so you won't be able to preach it from Moses. You will have to get it from somewhere else.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    This could be an interesting discussion, but may I suggest we deal with one passage at a time? Can you supply, for instance, the specific Acts 2 passage in which Peter swaps Jesus for Solomon? Let's talk about that passage first, then move on to some others.
    Sorry, I missed this question. In Acts 2:30, Peter makes reference to the Davidic covenant (2 Sam. 7), which is said by God Himself to be concerning Solomon (1 Ch. 22:9-11), but that Peter makes to be about Jesus.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Sorry, I missed this question. In Acts 2:30, Peter makes reference to the Davidic covenant (2 Sam. 7), which is said by God Himself to be concerning Solomon (1 Ch. 22:9-11), but that Peter makes to be about Jesus.
    Christ is the future and everlasting heir to the throne of David. All of those other fellow heirs were dead and buried long before Luke wrote the book of Acts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Sorry, I missed this question. In Acts 2:30, Peter makes reference to the Davidic covenant (2 Sam. 7), which is said by God Himself to be concerning Solomon (1 Ch. 22:9-11), but that Peter makes to be about Jesus.
    Acts 2:30 is in reference to Psalm 16:1ff in which David (the Lord) speaks to a future king which he calls "my Lord."

    2 Sam. 7 speaks about Solomon, but it is understood, I think, to refer to all of the kings of Israel who came from David, which would include Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Again, most all of those OT references have nothing to do with a future Messiah figure. They just don't. I'm starting to wonder if by "fulfill" the NT authors meant something other than how we might be thinking... For example, in Acts 13:27 Paul says that the Jews fulfilled the Prophets in condemning their own Savior, Jesus. Where do the Prophets (plural) speak of such a thing? It's just not there. But what is there over and over in the Prophets is the Jews condemning Yahweh who longs to save them. When they condemned Jesus, who is Yahweh in the flesh, to death on a cross, they "fulfilled", or, "filled to the full" their rage against God. And in this way all manner of OT Scriptural references could be said to be fulfilled by them, even if those references do not speak about a future Messiah figure and even seem to be completely ripped from their original context.

    What are your thoughts about this? - astro
    I don't know if this plays into your interpretation or not, but how do you determine that Christ is Yhwh in the flesh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    how do you determine that Christ is Yhwh in the flesh?
    Well, within the confines of Acts 2, Peter quotes Joel 2, saying that YHWH would pour out His Spirit in the last days. Then Peter says that Jesus has poured out the Spirit (called the Spirit of Christ later in Acts). There are several examples of this occurring in the NT. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one; God is at one within Himself. Jesus is fully God and the Spirit is fully God, but Jesus is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not Jesus. The same is true of the Father to the Son and to the Spirit, and They to Him. Ah! the mysteries of the Trinity!
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    I don't know if this plays into your interpretation or not, but how do you determine that Christ is Yhwh in the flesh?
    There are dozens of NT Scriptures attributed to Jesus Christ that were quoted from the OT specifically pertaining to YHWH.

    Therefore, we can know that either:
    1) the NT and the OT are harmoniously pointing to Jesus as being YHWH,
    or
    2) The NT and the OT are disharmonious, and Jesus is a fraudulent blasphemer

    Folks like Peter, Andrew, Simeon, Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, etc... thought the former; while many of the the Scribes, Pharisees, and Jewish leaders thought the latter.

    Who should we side with?



    Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the LORD [YHWH]; Make straight in the desert a highway for our God"

    Matthew 3:1 "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.' This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: “A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord [JESUS], make straight paths for him"



    Zechariah 12:8 "In that day shall the LORD [YHWH] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD [YHWH] before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced"

    John 19:36 "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him [JESUS] whom they pierced. "



    Isaiah 8:13 "The LORD [YHWH] Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare"

    1 Pet. 2:7 "Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, 'The stone [JESUS] the builders rejected has become the capstone,' and, 'A stone [JESUS] that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.'"



    Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD [YHWH] hath made all things for himself"

    Colossians 1:14 "his dear Son [JESUS]: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [JESUS] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him"




    Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD [YHWH] says--Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD [YHWH] Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God"

    Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am
    [JESUS] the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. "




    Isaiah 45:21 "Was it not I, the LORD [YHWH]? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me"

    1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son [JESUS] to be the Savior of the world"




    Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God [YHWH] is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes"

    Revelation 17:14 "They will make war against the Lamb [JESUS], but the Lamb [JESUS] will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers"

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There are dozens of NT Scriptures attributed to Jesus Christ that were quoted from the OT specifically pertaining to YHWH.

    Therefore, we can know that either:
    1) the NT and the OT are harmoniously pointing to Jesus as being YHWH,
    or
    2) The NT and the OT are disharmonious, and Jesus is a fraudulent blasphemer

    Folks like Peter, Andrew, Simeon, Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, etc... thought the former; while many of the the Scribes, Pharisees, and Jewish leaders thought the latter.

    Who should we side with?



    Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the LORD [YHWH]; Make straight in the desert a highway for our God"

    Matthew 3:1 "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.' This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: “A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord [JESUS], make straight paths for him"



    Zechariah 12:8 "In that day shall the LORD [YHWH] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD [YHWH] before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced"

    John 19:36 "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him [JESUS] whom they pierced. "



    Isaiah 8:13 "The LORD [YHWH] Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread, and he will be a sanctuary; but for both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare"

    1 Pet. 2:7 "Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, 'The stone [JESUS] the builders rejected has become the capstone,' and, 'A stone [JESUS] that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.'"



    Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD [YHWH] hath made all things for himself"

    Colossians 1:14 "his dear Son [JESUS]: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him [JESUS] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him"




    Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD [YHWH] says--Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD [YHWH] Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God"

    Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am [JESUS] the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. "




    Isaiah 45:21 "Was it not I, the LORD [YHWH]? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me"

    1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son [JESUS] to be the Savior of the world"




    Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God [YHWH] is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes"

    Revelation 17:14 "They will make war against the Lamb [JESUS], but the Lamb [JESUS] will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers"
    I misunderstood.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Well, within the confines of Acts 2, Peter quotes Joel 2, saying that YHWH would pour out His Spirit in the last days. Then Peter says that Jesus has poured out the Spirit (called the Spirit of Christ later in Acts). There are several examples of this occurring in the NT. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one; God is at one within Himself. Jesus is fully God and the Spirit is fully God, but Jesus is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not Jesus. The same is true of the Father to the Son and to the Spirit, and They to Him. Ah! the mysteries of the Trinity!
    I misunderstood you at first, however, I have reread your post and think I am with you now.

    astrongerthanhe---But what is there over and over in the Prophets is the Jews condemning Yhwh who longs to save them. When they condemned Jesus, who is Yhwh in the flesh, to death on a cross, they "fulfilled", or, "filled to the full" their rage against God.
    Are you saying that YHVH is the Father?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    Well, within the confines of Acts 2, Peter quotes Joel 2, saying that YHWH would pour out His Spirit in the last days. Then Peter says that Jesus has poured out the Spirit (called the Spirit of Christ later in Acts). There are several examples of this occurring in the NT. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one; God is at one within Himself. Jesus is fully God and the Spirit is fully God, but Jesus is not the Spirit and the Spirit is not Jesus. The same is true of the Father to the Son and to the Spirit, and They to Him. Ah! the mysteries of the Trinity!
    Quite right. The Trinity Doctrine doesn't teach that Jesus and YHWH are the same identity. It teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, i.e. Godhead, which isn't the same thing as saying Jesus and YHWH are the same person.

  12. #27
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    Think of it this way....

    If I said Jesus is "God", no problem.

    If I said the Father is "God", no problem.

    If I said the Holy Spirit is "God", no problem.

    It shouldn't be any different than swapping out "God" with "YHWH".

    YHWH is God; just another title-name for God.

    One divine, eternal, diety in essence.


    So when the OT refers to YHWH, and then later the NT takes that same OT reference and applies it specifically to Jesus; it is just another clear example of the NT Writers showing us that Jesus is God....and the fulfillment of the OT prophecies pertaining to God's incarnation that would come.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Think of it this way....

    If I said Jesus is "God", no problem.

    If I said the Father is "God", no problem.

    If I said the Holy Spirit is "God", no problem.

    It shouldn't be any different than swapping out "God" with "YHWH".

    YHWH is God; just another title-name for God.

    One divine, eternal, diety in essence.


    So when the OT refers to YHWH, and then later the NT takes that same OT reference and applies it specifically to Jesus; it is just another clear example of the NT Writers showing us that Jesus is God....and the fulfillment of the OT prophecies pertaining to God's incarnation that would come.
    In Exodus, God reveals his name to be YHWH, which is part of his identity.

    If we say the father's name is YHWH. No problem.

    If we say the son's name is Jesus. No problem.

    Will we also say YHWH is Jesus and Jesus is YHWH?


    God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, `YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    In Exodus, God reveals his name to be YHWH,

    Will we also say YHWH is Jesus and Jesus is YHWH?

    God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, `YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
    Yup

    John 3:31 "He that cometh from above is above all: he that cometh from heaven is above all. "

    John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,I AM."

    Ephesians 1:20 "Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named"

    John 8:24 "if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins."


  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    If we say the father's name is YHWH. No problem.
    I think this is a part of the problem, at least in my experience, is that people seem to limit the name "YHWH" to solely the Father... yet the NT clearly shows us (as seen in David Taylor's post) that "YHWH" is the name of God... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... not just the Father.

    Personally, I don't think enough attention and respect is given to the name YHWH. Too many Christians think it's "just one more name" for God... when, as you pointed out, it was God himself who said that it was to be his name forever. It can't just be "one more name" tossed into a pile of names... it is the name of God, the name he commanded for us to know him by forever.

    But now we're getting sidetracked from the OP's topic.

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