Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 63

Thread: Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension in the OT?

  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,818
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    I think this is a part of the problem, at least in my experience, is that people seem to limit the name "YHWH" to solely the Father... yet the NT clearly shows us (as seen in David Taylor's post) that "YHWH" is the name of God... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... not just the Father.
    I don't think David's post shows that. Another, better explanation is possible. But as you say, this is getting off the OP.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    8,173
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Quite right. The Trinity Doctrine doesn't teach that Jesus and YHWH are the same identity. It teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, i.e. Godhead, which isn't the same thing as saying Jesus and YHWH are the same person.
    That is where I was going but it appears that that name is used for Christ in the OT.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    8,173
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Yup

    John 3:31 "He that cometh from above is above all: he that cometh from heaven is above all. "

    John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,I AM."

    Ephesians 1:20 "Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named"

    John 8:24 "if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins."
    I disagree, Jesus is not the Father. It was Jesus who appeared in the OT not the Father. Unless I am misunderstanding you.

  4. #34
    He's not saying Jesus is the Father.

    He's showing this:

    The Old Testament has several passages that refer to YHWH, the One God.
    The New Testament has several passages that quote the OT passages that refer to YHWH.
    Many times, those NT passages are applying the OT quotations to Jesus.

    Meaning... the NT is saying that Jesus is YHWH. David Taylor isn't saying that "the Son" is YHWH... he's saying that YHWH = God, and hence, Jesus is fully YHWH as much as the Father is fully YHWH.

    Nowhere does the Old or New Testaments equate "YHWH" with "the Father". Everywhere do the Old and New Testaments equate "YHWH" with "God". And since "God" = "Father, Son, Spirit", then "YHWH" = "Father, Son, Spirit".

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    8,173
    Blog Entries
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    He's not saying Jesus is the Father.

    He's showing this:

    The Old Testament has several passages that refer to YHWH, the One God.
    The New Testament has several passages that quote the OT passages that refer to YHWH.
    Many times, those NT passages are applying the OT quotations to Jesus.

    Meaning... the NT is saying that Jesus is YHWH. David Taylor isn't saying that "the Son" is YHWH... he's saying that YHWH = God, and hence, Jesus is fully YHWH as much as the Father is fully YHWH.

    Nowhere does the Old or New Testaments equate "YHWH" with "the Father". Everywhere do the Old and New Testaments equate "YHWH" with "God". And since "God" = "Father, Son, Spirit", then "YHWH" = "Father, Son, Spirit".
    Isn't this a contradiction.

  6. #36
    1. Vicarious Suffering (Ps. 22:1) One forsaken of God.
    2. Description of the death of the Divine Sufferer (Ps. 22:6-8, 15-18; Isa. 53:3, 5; Zech. 12:10).
    3. Description of His enemies (Ps. 69:4; 35:19; 22:7-8, 16-18; 69:21).
    4. God lays Him low in death (Ps. 22:15; Isa. 53:4, 6, 10).
    5. Victory over death (Ps. 16:7-10).
    6. Rejected Stone becomes the Chief Corner Stone (Ps. 118:22-23; Isa. 28:16).
    7. Results of the Resurrection of the Suffering Messiah (Ps. 22:22-31; Isa. 53:10-12).

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    Isn't this a contradiction.
    No... How about you read the entire context of my post instead of ignoring the entire second half of that paragraph you so selectively highlighted? To summarize, I was saying:

    YHWH ≠ The Father
    YHWH = The Father and The Son and The Spirit

    Not to mention my previous statement: "YHWH" is the name of God... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... not just the Father.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,611
    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    I disagree, Jesus is not the Father. It was Jesus who appeared in the OT not the Father. Unless I am misunderstanding you.
    Nowhere in my posts have I ever said "Jesus is the Father".

    I said Jesus is YHWH.
    I said the Father is YHWH.
    I said the H.S. is YHWH.

    That's no different than saying each member of the trinity is God or Lord.

    There are scriptures quoted from OT passages referencing YHWH that are re-quoted in the NT and applied to each of the three members of the trinity; showing their equal divinity and claim to the name YHWH....yet we know they are also all three distinct within the Trinity.

    Perhaps YHWH is better compared to 'Trinity' (in concept) that solely one of the members of the Trinity as most seem to attempt to apply it moreoften to the Father than to the Son or Spirit.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,818
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Nowhere in my posts have I ever said "Jesus is the Father".

    I said Jesus is YHWH.
    I said the Father is YHWH.
    I said the H.S. is YHWH.

    That's no different than saying each member of the trinity is God or Lord.
    To say each member of the Trinity is "God", gives a label to the unity of The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But when we say that Jesus is God, the term "Jesus" is the proper name of the incarnate God.

    When God says to Moses that YHWH is his name isn't he talking about his proper name?

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,611
    We need to be careful not to split hairs over names.

    Names nor titles don't matter...

    Yes God told Moses "I AM"; but it didn't changed the who, nor the fact that God is called by many names throughout the OT and NT and throughout hundreds of languages.

    The OT preferred to use names such as I AM, God, Lord, and if you want to jump into Hebrew you have El, YHWH, Adonnai, etc....but again, when they are referring to the Creator, it really doesn't matter which one you use.

    Same thing for the NT. They might use I AM, God, Lord also...or Greek Kirious, Theos, etc...but again, when referring to the Creator, it really doesn't matter.

    The NT teaches us that it's English/Greek naming choices point back to the OT English/Hebrew naming choices; by what?

    Spelling? No.
    Phonecs? No.

    Context.

    When the NT passages relating to God point back to and quote the OT passages relating to God; we know that Jesus is YHWH.

    It's no different than the KJV OT referring to Elijah, and the KJV NT reverring to Elias....we know by the context, (not the spelling of the phonecs) that they are referring to the same person....just a variation of the name used.

    YHWH is an OT name for the Creator.
    In the NT, they used other names instead of YHWH, but they were talking about the exact same Creator; what we in English sometimes call Almighty God, our Lord and Saviour, the Godhead Trinity.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,818
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    We need to be careful not to split hairs over names.

    Names nor titles don't matter...

    Yes God told Moses "I AM"; but it didn't changed the who, nor the fact that God is called by many names throughout the OT and NT and throughout hundreds of languages.

    The OT preferred to use names such as I AM, God, Lord, and if you want to jump into Hebrew you have El, YHWH, Adonnai, etc....but again, when they are referring to the Creator, it really doesn't matter which one you use.

    Same thing for the NT. They might use I AM, God, Lord also...or Greek Kirious, Theos, etc...but again, when referring to the Creator, it really doesn't matter.

    The NT teaches us that it's English/Greek naming choices point back to the OT English/Hebrew naming choices; by what?

    Spelling? No.
    Phonecs? No.

    Context.

    When the NT passages relating to God point back to and quote the OT passages relating to God; we know that Jesus is YHWH.

    It's no different than the KJV OT referring to Elijah, and the KJV NT reverring to Elias....we know by the context, (not the spelling of the phonecs) that they are referring to the same person....just a variation of the name used.

    YHWH is an OT name for the Creator.
    In the NT, they used other names instead of YHWH, but they were talking about the exact same Creator; what we in English sometimes call Almighty God, our Lord and Saviour, the Godhead Trinity.
    Believe me David, the Trinity Doctrine is like an electrified fence. I know that if I get too close to it I will die. But I can't imagine that names and titles don't matter to you.

    In modern times we have invented a new crime called "identity theft." We don't like it when other people use our name and claim to be us, especially if it costs us money and reputation.

    The reason I bring this up is to illustrate how much our name is an aspect of our identity. And if our name is an aspect of our identity today, it was even more so when the OT was written.

    Now, when you say that the same person, i.e. God, can be called by different names, you seem to be saying that a distinct, individual, person can be known under several names, which I think is without controversy.

    I believe philosophers call this "numerical identity." No matter whether my wife calls me "husband" or "dear"; or whether my son calls me "father"; or whether the forum calls me "brorog" all of these names point to the same person.

    The tricky part of this discussion is the fact that Trinitarians don't believe that Jesus has numerical identity with YHWH. According to the Trinity formula, the Godhead is three persons in unity, not one person with different names.

    As Markedward points out, what the OT says about YHWH is what the NT says about Jesus. "Many times, those NT passages are applying the OT quotations to Jesus." This evidence does not necessarily prove a Trinity. It just as easily proves that Jesus and YHWH are numerically identical.

    I assume this is why Butch raised his objection saying, "I disagree, Jesus is not the Father. It was Jesus who appeared in the OT not the Father." To say that Jesus and YHWH are two names for the same person sounds like "Jesus and the father are the same person", that is, they are numerically identical.

    Are you saying that Jesus and YHWH are numerically identical? Are you saying they are the same person?

  12. #42
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,818
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    He's not saying Jesus is the Father.

    He's showing this:

    The Old Testament has several passages that refer to YHWH, the One God.
    The New Testament has several passages that quote the OT passages that refer to YHWH.
    Many times, those NT passages are applying the OT quotations to Jesus.

    Meaning... the NT is saying that Jesus is YHWH. David Taylor isn't saying that "the Son" is YHWH... he's saying that YHWH = God, and hence, Jesus is fully YHWH as much as the Father is fully YHWH.

    Nowhere does the Old or New Testaments equate "YHWH" with "the Father". Everywhere do the Old and New Testaments equate "YHWH" with "God". And since "God" = "Father, Son, Spirit", then "YHWH" = "Father, Son, Spirit".
    But Mark, isn't the equation of two proper names identify a single person? If we say Bob Keeshan is Captain Kangaroo, we are saying that these two names identify the same person. The proper name "Bob Keeshan" is the name he uses in real life. The proper name "Captain Kangaroo" is the name he uses on stage.

    As I understand it, YHWH is a proper name. And so if we say that YHWH is Jesus we are saying that these two names point to the same person. Isn't that right?

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,611
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    I believe philosophers call this "numerical identity." No matter whether my wife calls me "husband" or "dear"; or whether my son calls me "father"; or whether the forum calls me "brorog" all of these names point to the same person.
    Yes, that's a good analogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    The tricky part of this discussion is the fact that Trinitarians don't believe that Jesus has numerical identity with YHWH. According to the Trinity formula, the Godhead is three persons in unity, not one person with different names.
    According to who? Any trinitarian can simply look at the OT passages that speak of Jesus, but use the term YHWH, and see it is talking about Jesus.

    Whether I call Him YHWH, or Jesus, or Christ, or Immanuel, or the Galilean Carpenter, or the Nazarene, or the Prince of Peace.....all point to the same person.

    There is no confusion. There is no 'correct' and 'incorrect' name.

    Taking this towards that direction often turns into the driveway of the sacred-name cult; of which we don't want anyone to stumble into!


    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post

    As Markedward points out, what the OT says about YHWH is what the NT says about Jesus. "Many times, those NT passages are applying the OT quotations to Jesus." This evidence does not necessarily prove a Trinity. It just as easily proves that Jesus and YHWH are numerically identical.

    I assume this is why Butch raised his objection saying, "I disagree, Jesus is not the Father. It was Jesus who appeared in the OT not the Father." To say that Jesus and YHWH are two names for the same person sounds like "Jesus and the father are the same person", that is, they are numerically identical.

    Are you saying that Jesus and YHWH are numerically identical? Are you saying they are the same person?

    I am saying that the term YHWH is a generic term; that is no different than using 'Lord' or 'God'. It could apply to Jesus, to the Father, to the H.S. each individually, or to them as a collective Godhead Trinity. It depends on the context; but there is nothing magical or more 'correct' about using YHWH than any other name or title.


    The Trinity is referred to in scripture both in unity references, and in individual references....it depends on the context of the verse using the term YHWH. And many of the OT verses that use YHWH, since the understanding of the Trinity was not a heavily focused on and highly revealed concept in the OT; are ambiguous in regards to who of the Godhead is being references, or whether just the Godhead as a whole is being referenced.

    YHWH is God Almighty; and the context may or may not tell you if it is specifically being used to denote the Son, the Father, the H.S., or the Godhead Trinity combined.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: [YHWH] The LORD our God, [YHWH] the LORD is one."



    Notice earlier, I shared several passage from the NT that show Jesus is YHWH, when re-quoted from the OT passages.

    Here is another one, but it shows that the Holy Spirit too, is YHWH.

    Psalms 95:6 "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD [YHWH] our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. "

    Hebrews 3:7 "as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) "


    YHWH is a name used in the OT to denote 'God' and 'the Lord'; but it can't be narrowly defined to any of the three members of the Trinity, it depends on the context of it's use....as the NT writers have shown us.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,611
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    As I understand it, YHWH is a proper name. And so if we say that YHWH is Jesus we are saying that these two names point to the same person. Isn't that right?
    No Roger, because sometimes YHWH isn't used to point to Jesus; only sometimes YHWH is used to point to Jesus.

    Other times YHWH is used to point to the Father,
    other times YHWH is used to point to the H.S.,
    and other times YHWH is used to point to either the GodHead Trinity as a group, or it's pointer is unspecificed.

    The OT Jews may have used YHWH as a sacred proper name; but they also missed the boat when it came to the NT writings, and realizing that the NT writings show us that YHWH can be used to denote any of the three members of the Trinity.

    YHWH isn't and shouldn't be any different than 'God' or 'Lord' to a Christian; when the context of it's used is pointing to our eternal Creator and Lord.

    Sure little 'god' can mean Marduke, Ashteroth, or Baal.
    Sure little 'lord' can mean lord Falteroy, lord vader, or lord chancellor.

    But in the context of Christian Scripture, God and Lord and YHWH are interchangeable. 'Father' or 'Jesus' or 'H.S' can also be used instead of any of the three (YHWH, God, or Lord) if a more specific context is intended.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    under the pain of the wish
    Posts
    11,818
    Blog Entries
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    No Roger, because sometimes YHWH isn't used to point to Jesus; only sometimes YHWH is used to point to Jesus.

    Other times YHWH is used to point to the Father,
    other times YHWH is used to point to the H.S.,
    and other times YHWH is used to point to either the GodHead Trinity as a group, or it's pointer is unspecificed.

    The OT Jews may have used YHWH as a sacred proper name; but they also missed the boat when it came to the NT writings, and realizing that the NT writings show us that YHWH can be used to denote any of the three members of the Trinity.

    YHWH isn't and shouldn't be any different than 'God' or 'Lord' to a Christian; when the context of it's used is pointing to our eternal Creator and Lord.

    Sure little 'god' can mean Marduke, Ashteroth, or Baal.
    Sure little 'lord' can mean lord Falteroy, lord vader, or lord chancellor.

    But in the context of Christian Scripture, God and Lord and YHWH are interchangeable. 'Father' or 'Jesus' or 'H.S' can also be used instead of any of the three (YHWH, God, or Lord) if a more specific context is intended.
    Can you give me an example in which YHWH is not used as a proper name? If YHWH was a general term like "god" or "lord", then we should be able to find an example of this. As I understand it, the word YHWH designates which particular god we are talking about, not that he is a god or The God.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Jesus' resurrection
    By mortehoe in forum Growing in Christ
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: May 7th 2009, 10:41 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •