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Thread: Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension in the OT?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog
    Can you give me an example in which YHWH is not used as a proper name?

    If YHWH was a general term like "god" or "lord", then we should be able to find an example of this. As I understand it, the word YHWH designates which particular god we are talking about, not that he is a god or The God.
    Have you not noticed the scriptures I've listed above that show Jesus being denoted as YHWH and also the Holy Spirit being denoted as YHWH?

    That kinda pulls the plug out of the tub that YHWH is a specific-name-only for any member of the Trinity.

    'The Angel of the Lord' likewise, is another good example for the non-specific use of YHWH. If YHWH were solely a proper-name only, then using it to point to The Angel of the Lord is not consistent; since the AOTL is a unique preson mentioned in both the OT and NT.

    Here also is a good example from the book of Hosea, where the generic terms 'God' and 'The Lord'[YHWH) are used generically and identically; in adjacent passages.

    Hosea
    1:3 "Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son. And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel;
    1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah:"


    Exact same useage of YHWH (The Lord Said) and (God said) in the same paragraph; neither being contextually used as a proper name.

  2. #47
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    Consider this passage from Psalm 110

    The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
    This sentence implies three people: 1) the speaker/writer, 2) the first "Lord", and 3) the second "Lord."

    In the Hebrew, the first Lord is YHWH. The second Lord is Adonai.

    Now then, the author of Hebrews uses this passage to make his case that the messiah would not be an angel. For he says,

    But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies A footstool for Your feet"? Hebrews 1:13
    In this the author of Hebrews declares that the second "Lord" of Psalm 110 is Jesus, the one who will sit at YHWH's right hand "until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." This statement wouldn't make much sense if the term YHWH was a generic term for the Godhead. In Psalm 110, it sure sounds like a person named YHWH is talking to another person refered to as "my Lord".

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Consider this passage from Psalm 110
    The Lord says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
    This sentence implies three people: 1) the speaker/writer, 2) the first "Lord", and 3) the second "Lord."

    In the Hebrew, the first Lord is YHWH. The second Lord is Adonai.

    Now then, the author of Hebrews uses this passage to make his case that the messiah would not be an angel. For he says,
    But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies A footstool for Your feet"? Hebrews 1:13
    In this the author of Hebrews declares that the second "Lord" of Psalm 110 is Jesus, the one who will sit at YHWH's right hand "until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." This statement wouldn't make much sense if the term YHWH was a generic term for the Godhead. In Psalm 110, it sure sounds like a person named YHWH is talking to another person refered to as "my Lord".
    With our knowledge of Greek and English that the Psalmic writter didn't use; staying solely in Hebrew; that one passage could be easily re-written:

    Psalm 110
    Pater says to Iesu: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

    or

    Father says to Jesus: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

    or even generically yet distinctive....

    Theos says to Kurios: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

    The Psalmic writer is using two terms that denote God 'YHWH and Adonai' to distinguish within the Godhead Trinity in Psalms 139, even when the Trinity wasn't clearly revealed and understood by the OT people.

    The Context of Psalms 139 tells us that it is differentiating between two of the members of the Godhead in this case; however many useages of YHWH in the OT don't do that; but just generically refer to God.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Have you not noticed the scriptures I've listed above that show Jesus being denoted as YHWH and also the Holy Spirit being denoted as YHWH?

    That kinda pulls the plug out of the tub that YHWH is a specific-name-only for any member of the Trinity.
    Not really. As I said, it also works if Jesus and YHWH are numerically identical, that is, the same person with two different names.

    'The Angel of the Lord' likewise, is another good example for the non-specific use of YHWH. If YHWH were solely a proper-name only, then using it to point to The Angel of the Lord is not consistent; since the AOTL is a unique preson mentioned in both the OT and NT.
    I thought this was fairly common in the OT. When an angel of the Lord speaks for God, it's as if God himself is speaking and it seems fairly common to refer to God even though an Angel was merely acting as his mouthpiece.


    Here also is a good example from the book of Hosea, where the generic terms 'God' and 'The Lord'[YHWH) are used generically and identically; in adjacent passages.

    Hosea
    1:3 "Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son. And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel;
    1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah:"


    Exact same useage of YHWH (The Lord Said) and (God said) in the same paragraph; neither being contextually used as a proper name.
    Actually, in verse 6 I don't think there is a noun. I believe the inflected verb carries the subject as in "he said". The word "Lord" or "God" is implied.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    No... How about you read the entire context of my post instead of ignoring the entire second half of that paragraph you so selectively highlighted? To summarize, I was saying:

    YHWH ≠ The Father
    YHWH = The Father and The Son and The Spirit

    Not to mention my previous statement: "YHWH" is the name of God... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... not just the Father.
    I did read your entire post and in context. How can Yhwh equal the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit, and yet not equal the Father?

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Nowhere in my posts have I ever said "Jesus is the Father".

    I said Jesus is YHWH.
    I said the Father is YHWH.
    I said the H.S. is YHWH.

    That's no different than saying each member of the trinity is God or Lord.

    There are scriptures quoted from OT passages referencing YHWH that are re-quoted in the NT and applied to each of the three members of the trinity; showing their equal divinity and claim to the name YHWH....yet we know they are also all three distinct within the Trinity.

    Perhaps YHWH is better compared to 'Trinity' (in concept) that solely one of the members of the Trinity as most seem to attempt to apply it moreoften to the Father than to the Son or Spirit.
    Agreed, it seems a lot of people do use Yhwh as a name for the Father. That was the reason for my statement. It seems I was misunderstanding your other post.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Yes, that's a good analogy.



    According to who? Any trinitarian can simply look at the OT passages that speak of Jesus, but use the term YHWH, and see it is talking about Jesus.

    Whether I call Him YHWH, or Jesus, or Christ, or Immanuel, or the Galilean Carpenter, or the Nazarene, or the Prince of Peace.....all point to the same person.

    There is no confusion. There is no 'correct' and 'incorrect' name.

    Taking this towards that direction often turns into the driveway of the sacred-name cult; of which we don't want anyone to stumble into!





    I am saying that the term YHWH is a generic term; that is no different than using 'Lord' or 'God'. It could apply to Jesus, to the Father, to the H.S. each individually, or to them as a collective Godhead Trinity. It depends on the context; but there is nothing magical or more 'correct' about using YHWH than any other name or title.


    The Trinity is referred to in scripture both in unity references, and in individual references....it depends on the context of the verse using the term YHWH. And many of the OT verses that use YHWH, since the understanding of the Trinity was not a heavily focused on and highly revealed concept in the OT; are ambiguous in regards to who of the Godhead is being references, or whether just the Godhead as a whole is being referenced.

    YHWH is God Almighty; and the context may or may not tell you if it is specifically being used to denote the Son, the Father, the H.S., or the Godhead Trinity combined.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: [YHWH] The LORD our God, [YHWH] the LORD is one."



    Notice earlier, I shared several passage from the NT that show Jesus is YHWH, when re-quoted from the OT passages.

    Here is another one, but it shows that the Holy Spirit too, is YHWH.

    Psalms 95:6 "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD [YHWH] our maker. For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work. Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. "

    Hebrews 3:7 "as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) "


    YHWH is a name used in the OT to denote 'God' and 'the Lord'; but it can't be narrowly defined to any of the three members of the Trinity, it depends on the context of it's use....as the NT writers have shown us.
    I think I have to agree with you, I thought as BroRog that Yhwh was a proper name for the Father. However, having seen what you have stated and then also Checking the Septuagint I have found that the Septuagint translates Yhwh as "Theos" a term which is used of both the Father and Jesus

    See, when someone presents a sound Biblical argument I am all ears and willing to change what I believe.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    Checking the Septuagint I have found that the Septuagint translates Yhwh as "Theos" .
    I think you mean "kurios"

    At the time the Septuagint was translated, 300-200BC, Yahweh, was invariably read Adonai (Lord) due to a rabbinical taboo, and therefore is rendered "kurios" in most Greek OT texts, Philo, Josephus, etc.

    • Greek "kurios" in the Septuagint (with no capitals) can mean either LORD, or a normal lord like Abraham. In the NT it can mean LORD, Lord, or lord.
    • Greek "theos" (God) is usually used when Hebrew "Elohim" has a singular verb.
    • Greek "theoi" (gods pl.) is usually used where Hebrew "elohim" has a plural verb.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    I think I have to agree with you, I thought as BroRog that Yhwh was a proper name for the Father. However, having seen what you have stated and then also Checking the Septuagint I have found that the Septuagint translates Yhwh as "Theos" a term which is used of both the Father and Jesus

    See, when someone presents a sound Biblical argument I am all ears and willing to change what I believe.
    Well, God says YHWH is his name. What else am I supposed to think?

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Well, God says YHWH is his name. What else am I supposed to think?
    Well God does say in Jeremiah 16:21 "my name is YHWH" but the problem is more than in Hebrew 'shem' = name, reputation, respect, character, not just the actual name. So we get verses like these:

    Exodus 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

    Psalm 83:18 that they may know that you alone, whose name is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth.

    Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.


    More of a problem still ..

    John 17:26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    And yet as far as we know from the NT record, Jesus never once pronounced the name "YHWH" (whatever the vowels might be) or he would have been stoned. When he reads from the Isaiah scroll he is recorded as reading "Lord" instead - and Luke could have written "IAO" in Greek if Christ had used the name. And yet Christ claims that he has made God's name known to them - so it can only mean by his character, love.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven3 View Post
    Well God does say in Jeremiah 16:21 "my name is YHWH" but the problem is more than in Hebrew 'shem' = name, reputation, respect, character, not just the actual name. So we get verses like these:

    Exodus 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

    Psalm 83:18 that they may know that you alone, whose name is the Lord, are the Most High over all the earth.

    Isaiah 57:15 For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.


    More of a problem still ..

    John 17:26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.

    And yet as far as we know from the NT record, Jesus never once pronounced the name "YHWH" (whatever the vowels might be) or he would have been stoned. When he reads from the Isaiah scroll he is recorded as reading "Lord" instead - and Luke could have written "IAO" in Greek if Christ had used the name. And yet Christ claims that he has made God's name known to them - so it can only mean by his character, love.
    But wouldn't you say that terms like "adonai" and "elohim" are designators of the "genus" of lords and gods but the term "YHWH" denotes and identifies a particular god?

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    But wouldn't you say that terms like "adonai" and "elohim" are designators of the "genus" of lords and gods but the term "YHWH" denotes and identifies a particular god?
    Yes, more or less, assuming the vowel pointing in the Lenigrad Codex is correct, then elohim (even when singular) can attach to another god, and adonai can be used of human lords.

    The only complicating factor would what Ex6:3 about Abraham not knowing the name YHWH is meant to tell us about "names" when we have this:

    And Abram said, Adonai-YHWH, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

    Maybe this Adonai-YHWH meant My-Lord-Who-Is to Abraham, but still it appears that "name" in Ex6:3 means something about God's reputation, not actually a name:

    Ex 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.

    But yes, you have a point in the OT YHWH is more of a "name" (in the English sense) than "God" or "Adonai".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven3 View Post
    Yes, more or less, assuming the vowel pointing in the Lenigrad Codex is correct, then elohim (even when singular) can attach to another god, and adonai can be used of human lords.

    The only complicating factor would what Ex6:3 about Abraham not knowing the name YHWH is meant to tell us about "names" when we have this:

    And Abram said, Adonai-YHWH, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

    Maybe this Adonai-YHWH meant My-Lord-Who-Is to Abraham, but still it appears that "name" in Ex6:3 means something about God's reputation, not actually a name:

    Ex 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH was I not known to them.

    But yes, you have a point in the OT YHWH is more of a "name" (in the English sense) than "God" or "Adonai".
    Okay, now I understand your earlier point about the Hebrew usage of the term "name." And now I am curious as to what he meant when he told Moses that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't know him by that name. Is he suggesting that he didn't interact with Abraham as THE God but only as one of the god's? In other words, he interacted with Abraham within Abraham's limited understanding?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Well, God says YHWH is his name. What else am I supposed to think?
    I agree, I thought the same. I did not realize that it was used of Christ also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    I've been making a list of places where the NT writers say that Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension were spoken of by all the prophets. For example, Paul in Acts 26:22-23 said, "I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the Prophets and Moses said would come - that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles." I must need some serious eye-salve, because I don't see such things in the OT.

    Here's my list so far:
    Luke 1:55, 70; 18:31-34; 21:22, 32-33; 22:22, 37; 24:25-27, 32, 44-49
    Acts 3:18, 21, 24; 7:52; 8:35; 9:22; 10:43; 13:27, 29-33; 15:15; 17:1-4, 10-12; 18:28; 19:8; 26:22-23, 27; 28:23
    John 5:39, 46-47; Rom. 1:1-4; 1 Cor. 15:3-4; 1 Pet. 1:10-13

    That's a lot of places! And I'm sure there's many more. At first I thought maybe the NT authors were talking about the Talmud, but they never quote from the Talmud when "proving" Jesus was the Christ from the Scriptures. I'm also wondering if this was how the first century Jews exegeted Scripture (called "targuming"). Anyway. I was wondering what you all thought about this. I want to be able to take the book of Moses and preach Jesus Christ crucified from it, like Paul and Apollos were said to do regularly. Thanks guys.
    I believe that the reason why we don't find any OT passages laid out in all of these NT texts that declare the Messiah had to suffer, die, and rise again "according to the Scriptures" or "so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled" is because the authors aren't thinking like post-Enlightnment literalists looking for individual "proof-texts" on which to rest their case. Rather, like first century Jews living within a story (a story about a fall and a promise, and then about exile and deliverance) they looked to their Scriptures collectively as the true and authoritative metanarrative (answering the big questions like "who are we?", "what's wrong?" and "what's the solution?") over against all the other narratives on offer in the world.

    And contrary to what the majority of the nation of Israel believed about that story in the first century (and therefore what they expected for its climax, its fulfillment), the pattern of that story had always been about suffering and glory, about death and resurrection. This quote from N.T. Wright really helped me on this point:
    Israel's sufferings increased in Egypt to the bleeding point, and then the redemption occured. Isarel cried to the Lord in her suffering, and he raised up judges to deliver her. The Assyrians swept through Jerusalem; they were routed by YHWH himself when they were on the point of taking the city. When Israel is cast down, walking about mournfully because of the oppression of the enemy, then God will act, sending out his light and truth to lead her like the pillar of cloud and fire in the wilderness.

    And though Babylon had succeeded where Assyria failed, to be followed by the other pagan nations climaxing now with Rome, the prophets pointed into the gloom and declared that it would be through this darkness that the redemption would come. Israel would be narrowed down to a point, a remnant, a Servant, one like a Son of Man attacked by monsters, and this little group would pass through the raging waters and not drown, through the fire and not be harmed. Somehow, strangely, the saving purpose of YHWH for Israel and through Israel for the world would be carried through the most intense suffering, to emerge the other side as exile was at last undone, as sins were at last forgiven as an act in history, as the covenant was renewed, as the kingdom of God was finally established.

    This then, was after all how the story worked; this was the narrative the prophets had been elaborating. Yes, the Scriptures were indeed to be read as a narrative reaching its climax. They never were a mere collection of arbitrary or atomized proof-texts. But no, the story was never about Israel beating up her enemies and becoming established as the high-and-mighty masters of the world. It was always the story of how the creator God, Israel's covenant God, would bring his saving purpose for the world to birth through the suffering and vindication of Israel. "Beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself." This could never be a matter of so-called "messianic" proof-texts alone. It was the entire narrative, the complete story-line, the whole world of prayer and hope, focused on Isarel as the bearer of God's promise for the world, then focused on a remnant as the bearer of Israel's destiny, and focused finally on Israel's true king as the one upon whom the task even of the remnant would finally devolve. He had been the servant for the servant-people. He had done for Israel and the world what Israel and the world could not do for themselves. (N.T. Wright, The Challenge of Jesus, pp. 161-162)

    - Hitman


    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - Advice from the Apostle Paul


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