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Thread: Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension in the OT?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    Okay, now I understand your earlier point about the Hebrew usage of the term "name." And now I am curious as to what he meant when he told Moses that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't know him by that name. Is he suggesting that he didn't interact with Abraham as THE God but only as one of the god's? In other words, he interacted with Abraham within Abraham's limited understanding?
    Personally I don't think it is suggesting that God interacted with Abraham as only as one of the gods. The only evidence for that is one verse (I forget reference) where Abraham in front of Pharaoh refers to his God (Elohim) using the plural verbs ("gods"), but it's probably simply Abraham trying to express it in a way Pharaoh would understand. What Abraham said before Pharaoh (and if I recall it's the time he lied about Sarah too) can't be taken as the full measure of Abraham's idea.

    But interacting with Abraham's limited understanding, yes. Abraham called God YHWH, but didn't have the same understanding of that 'name' (if it is a name not a title in modern English terms) that God then Gave to Moses. This suggestion would be supported:

    1. by the lack of NT usage of the Greek forms of the Yahweh = IAO or IABE (even though IAO and IABE are found in some magical inscriptions, one of the Qumran Greek scrolls, etc.),
    2. by John not using "IAO" for "he who is" when he cites Ex3:14 three times in Revelation.

    BUT of course IAO was taboo, punishable with stoning, so the non-use of it doesn't prove it wasn't a name. As above Jeremiah (was it Jer16?) appears to show it as a 'name' in English terms.

    We don't know.

  2. #62

    Re: Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension in the OT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    No, this isn't what I'm looking for. And I don't want this to turn into a contest of who can post the most thorough list of "Jesus" in the the OT (not that it has yet). What I'm looking to have is an honest discussion on why the NT claims that ALL the Prophets, Moses, and the Psalms spoke about Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension, when they just don't seem to at all. Even the Scriptures referenced by Peter and Paul while preaching (in Acts, for example) often do not have anything to do with what they are using them for. So again, I'm looking for dialog, not a list. Thanks guys.
    You are actually making a statement, not asking for clarification.

    Yes, Jesus is Yahweh. So is his Father. And so is the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Christ.

  3. #63

    Re: Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension in the OT?

    I don't like to join in at such a late date. The thread appears to have gone off on prophecies of Christ when the OP was asking specifically for the prophecies concerning his death, resurrection and ascension. (Though I confess I did not read them all.)

    To see them, we have to read the Bible like Jesus and the apostles did. If you research "NT author's use of the OT" you will see theologian after theologian admitting that they do not know how to read the Bible like the NT authors did. Some suggesting that if Jesus and Paul were in their Hermeneutics-101 class they would fail for misappropriating scripture.

    Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him. We can see we are pulling out a few prophecies here and there, so either he didn't mean what he said, or we don't know how to see him in all the scriptures.

    He was always teaching his disciples about the cross from the scriptures, but they did not believe/understand until after his resurrection. The fact that he had to show them, though they were well versed in scripture, means that what he showed them was hidden or not plain. Paul calls this the 'mystery, hidden from the beginning'.

    When Paul taught the Bereans, they validated his teaching against the OT, so they too, saw what was hidden.

    And when Peter declared "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God", somehow the Father had helped him correlate what he knew of the OT with what he saw in Jesus. So Jesus gave him the keys to the kingdom (teaching).

    Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Then he showed them in the scriptures where it said he would die.

    Mt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
    It might be suggested that the keys to the Apostles' teaching are the pictures of his death hidden in the literal text of the Bible; prophetic riddle hidden in the history of Israel.

    And again on the road to Emmaus, he had to show them things which were not plain in scripture.

    It might be observed that there are certain themes or patterns which are central to hidden vignettes of the cross:

    Things that are split.
    Things that are buried or underground.
    People who are killed and replaced with another
    People who sleep
    Things that are hung
    Name changes

    One of the earliest is in Gen 2:21

    Ge 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

    Just from the English We see a man who was put to sleep/death (same word) and when he awoke he had a bride/church.

    An interesting observation in Hebrew is that all the words have multiple meanings, and the verse MAY be read as :

    And God caused the man to die and he died: and he married a certain limping side and delivered mankind.
    This appears to be the nature of the prophetic riddle or mystery.
    God cause Christ to die and he died - it was the Father's will.
    He married - The church is his bride.
    He delivered mankind - he is savior

    But what is his limping side?

    The seed of the woman in Gen would have a bruised heel... he limps.
    Jacob had a withered thigh ... he limps.

    Jesus was both man and God. As a man, he did not want to die. This was the source of much temptation and grief during his ministry. Even at Gethsemane he asks that the cup be removed.

    He fulfills these hidden prophecies by making his flesh 'limp'. He put it down so that his spirit was in control as he declared "Nevertheless, your will be done." Gethsemane was the fulfillment of the limping side prophecy.

    You can mark Gen 2:21 as one of the prophecies that he would die and be resurrected.

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