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Thread: Hosts of The High Ones?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    You were trying to make the argument that something in Revelation must precede Revelation 20, right? I showed you an example where that does not have to be the case, so I don't think you have much of an argument for that claim.

    That's good. So do I.

    Satan is a spirit being so comparing him being laid hold of to a physical being being laid hold of is not a valid comparison, IMO. Satan is not a being that can just be physically grabbed and chained up because he is not a physical being.

    I believe it's a mistake to compare a spirit being being cast into a spiritual place to a physical being being cast into a physical place. It's just not a valid comparison, IMO. I believe the text has to be interpreted symbolically because something that is happening to a spirit being is described using physical terms.

    Yes, of course. Again, Satan is a spirit being.

    Oh, so the chain isn't literal and physical but everything else is? Where is the consistency in that interpretation?

    There may be, but does that mean it is just like a physical place with physical barriers like walls and ceilings? I don't believe so.


    Let me ask you this, in order to determine how you see things overall. satan is a spirit being...we agree on that. And just because we can't see nor feel him, does that mean he has no physical properties in other dimensions? Should we conclude that God made all spirit beings without any substance, where you can't ever see them, and if you do, you can pretty much walk right thru them? While that may be possible in our dimesnsion, why should we conclude that that's the way it is in satan's realm? Also, how is the LOF going to have any affect on satan if he has no physical substance? What's going to keep him in the LOF, since you don't even think it's logical for him to be confined in the abyss for 1000 yrs?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firstfruits View Post
    The 5th trumpet, end of millenium.

    Jesus comes after the millenium at 7th trumpet.

    Firstfruits
    Right. That's what I believe. What's the problem with that?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Let me ask you this, in order to determine how you see things overall. satan is a spirit being...we agree on that. And just because we can't see nor feel him, does that mean he has no physical properties in other dimensions?
    I tend to think that he does not because spirits do not have flesh and bones.

    Matthew 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    I do believe angels can take on physical form, though. There are examples in scripture of that. But that doesn't mean they are physical beings with physical limitations like we have.

    Should we conclude that God made all spirit beings without any substance, where you can't ever see them, and if you do, you can pretty much walk right thru them?
    They can take on visible form. There are examples of that occurring in scripture. But I would tend to think you could walk right through them if they did not take on physical form.

    While that may be possible in our dimesnsion, why should we conclude that that's the way it is in satan's realm?
    I don't know why it would be different in that dimension. It seems that Jesus was saying that spirits do not have flesh and bones in any dimension.

    Also, how is the LOF going to have any affect on satan if he has no physical substance? What's going to keep him in the LOF, since you don't even think it's logical for him to be confined in the abyss for 1000 yrs?
    I never said it isn't logical for him to be confined in the abyss for a thousand years. The issue here is not that I'm saying he's not actually confined in the abyss during that time. The issue is that we have a different understanding of what it means for Satan to be bound, what the abyss is and where it is located.

    I think you see the abyss as a physical place or at least like a physical place that is far away from the earth somewhere. Is that correct? I believe it is a reference to the spiritual realm outside of heaven, so I don't believe it's a place that is completely separate from the earth with no access to the earth.

    What about verses like these:

    Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Do you think fallen angels, despite being "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness" are unable to move around on the earth? If not, then why would Satan being bound with "a great chain" mean that?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    What about verses like these:

    Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains
    under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of
    darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Do you think fallen angels, despite being "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness" are unable to move around on the
    earth? If not, then why would Satan being bound with "a great chain" mean that?

    Since you brought these passages up, my conclusions are that they are literally bound in the abyss currently. But that doesn't mean all of satan's angels are confined there. I think these angels mentioned in these passages are the same angels mentioned in Genesis 6. I also feel that these will be the same ones let loose in Rev 9. And since we also know that they ascend out of the pit, that puts the pit below us, and not in some heavenly realm outside of the heaven where God resides. How can anything ascend out of anything, unless it is coming up? When Jesus comes back to the earth, is He ascending or descending to get here? When Jesus went back to heaven after His resurrection, did He descend, or ascend in order to get there?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Since you brought these passages up, my conclusions are that they are literally bound in the abyss currently. But that doesn't mean all of satan's angels are confined there.
    Honestly, that seems like a rather convenient interpretation. Didn't all fallen angels leave their first estate? What basis is there for thinking it's not speaking of all fallen angels in those verses? It refers to them as "the angels that sinned". Doesn't that describe all fallen angels rather than just a subset of them?
    I think these angels mentioned in these passages are the same angels mentioned in Genesis 6.
    What is your basis for believing that?

    And since we also know that they ascend out of the pit, that puts the pit below us,
    How did you come to this conclusion? If it's below us then where is it exactly?

    and not in some heavenly realm outside of the heaven where God resides. How can anything ascend out of anything, unless it is coming up?
    You'd have a point if the text is meant to be taken literally, but I believe it's symbolic. It speaks of Satan being cast into the bottomless pit and then loosed after the thousand years. So, he would ascend out of the bottomless pit at the time he is loosed, right? Yet his being loosed is related to him again being able to deceive the nations and unite them against "the camp of the saints". Couldn't ascending out of the bottomless pit be a figurative reference to having one's symbolic chains/restraints removed rather than to literally coming up out of somewhere?

    It also talks about the beast ascending out of the bottomless pit (Rev 11:7, Rev 17:8). Who or what do you think the beast is?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Firstfruits View Post
    If Jesus does not come until after the 5th trumpet which is the end of the millenium, how can it be said that he comes before the millenium?

    Firstfruits
    I believe your understanding of the trumpets isn't correct. It is obvious, because Jesus comes to rule on Earth for a Millennium.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Right. That's what I believe. What's the problem with that?
    I do not believe that you have a problem with that but for those that believe the millenium does not start until after the 7th trumpet has sounded that would be a problem.

    God bless you!

    Firstfruits

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    I believe your understanding of the trumpets isn't correct. It is obvious, because Jesus comes to rule on Earth for a Millennium.
    Then Jesus must rule along with the beast, but that is not scriptual.

    Firstfruits

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firstfruits View Post
    Then Jesus must rule along with the beast, but that is not scriptual.

    Firstfruits


    If the beast rules during the millenium, then you need to seriously consider changing your position to amil, because it would mean that we're in the millenium now. Personally I can't seem to connect the dots that show the beast is ruling during the millenium. I just don't see that in the Scriptures. What I see in the Scriptures is that the beast is overthrown by Christ, and Christ's kingdom is setup and has physical dominion over the entire planet. This certainly hasn't occured physically as of yet.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If the beast rules during the millenium, then you need to seriously consider changing your position to amil, because it would mean that we're in the millenium now. Personally I can't seem to connect the dots that show the beast is ruling during the millenium. I just don't see that in the Scriptures. What I see in the Scriptures is that the beast is overthrown by Christ, and Christ's kingdom is setup and has physical dominion over the entire planet. This certainly hasn't occured physically as of yet.
    Does this mean that the 7 vials are poured out before the 7th trumpets?

    Firstfruits

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firstfruits View Post
    Does this mean that the 7 vials are poured out before the 7th trumpets?

    Firstfruits


    Whether the 7 vials are poured out before the 7th trumpet, during the 7th trumpet, or even after the 7th trumpet, all of these things occur before the 1000 yrs can begin, according to Rev 19 and Rev 20. Once the beast is cast into the LOF, the vial judgments are complete. The beast gets cast into the LOF upon Christ's return, which then begins the millenium.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Whether the 7 vials are poured out before the 7th trumpet, during the 7th trumpet, or even after the 7th trumpet, all of these things occur before the 1000 yrs can begin, according to Rev 19 and Rev 20. Once the beast is cast into the LOF, the vial judgments are complete. The beast gets cast into the LOF upon Christ's return, which then begins the millenium.
    With regards to the beast, it does matter whether or not the vials are poured out before the 7th trumpet.

    Is the gathering for battle in Revelation 19 not the same gathering for battle at Armageddon as the beast the false prophet and the kings of the earth are all gathered there.

    Firstfruits

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