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Thread: The Great Tribulation

  1. #1
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    The Great Tribulation

    Just a quick question to start things off.

    Is the GT a worldwide event that effects all nations?

  2. #2
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    I believe it is world wide.

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    such as has not been since the beginning of the world

    Matthew 24:15-22


    15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 1718 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 1920 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

    Great is something. Then when 1/3's of the worlds population starts dieing off, it would seem unlikely to be just centered in one country....
    Last edited by Amos_with_goats; Dec 2nd 2009 at 02:42 PM. Reason: finsih coloring. I like to finish, and hate it when I miss some. ;)

  4. #4
    When speaking of the GT I believe it is spoking of the jewish nation. The time of Jacob's trouble.

    Luke 21
    20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Matthew 24
    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    The GT is about the nation of Israel for rejection the Messiah and then the christain Jews will be scattered unto all nations.
    This end will effect all nations.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    When speaking of the GT I believe it is spoking of the jewish nation. The time of Jacob's trouble.

    Luke 21
    20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

    Matthew 24
    15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
    16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    The GT is about the nation of Israel for rejection the Messiah and then the Jews will be scattered unto all nations.
    This end will effect all nations.
    They were already scattered. And we are told that the Jews were blinded for the sake of the Gentiles - and they would be trodden under foot until the fulness of the Gentiles. This ship has sailed brother. God scattered them in 70AD and called them back in 1948. The word says Israel will be saved out of the time of His trouble - not scattered.

    Jer. 30:
    [7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
    [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
    [9] But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
    [10] Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

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    The Great Time of Trouble is a period of time which starts when the Bride of Christ is taken off the scene and into the Marriage, the door is shut and the 4 winds let loose.

    But there is other things that happen during this time.

    Next I believe is the fall of Mystic Babylon. (it is during the hour of power of Babylon that the Bride is put to death by Babylon—they will be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye) So after the fall of Babylon, then I believe the Great Multitude will be put to death (Rev. 7:14, they are also called the Bride’s maids—blessed is he who comes to the marriage supper—the supper is after the marriage). Then I believe there will be anarchy the world over, except in what Joel calls the Lord’s Great Army, this is the forces of Gog and Magog which come down to Israel to take a spoil---Jacob’s Trouble.

    As Stupes has said, they will be saved out of it. There are other scriptures to show this

    Dan. 12:1, he fights for them he did in days of old, delivered every one found written in the book
    Isa. 4:3, he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written
    Zechariah 12:6-8, save the tents of Judah first
    Jer 46:28, will not make a full end of thee

    So in short the order of events as I see the Scriptures to teach are as follows:

    Psalm 83
    Hour of Power of the Beast (aka. Mystic Babylon, Jezebel in type, Man of Sin, Antichrist, Beast of Dan 2,7)
    Bride of Christ put to death (the antitype of John the Baptist beheaded, Elijah taken, Wise Virgins, Lord’s Goat, Gideon’s 300, Daniel’s promotion before fall of Babylon, 3 Hebrew Children, Rock cut out of the Mountain, first sister in Song of Sol. Noah and family enter the ark—door shut)
    4 Winds let loose, Great Time of Trouble Begins, loosing of fallen angels
    Fall of Babylon (same as beast above)
    Death of Great Multitude (aka. Foolish Virgin class, Scape Goat class, Elisha class, little sister in Song of Sol. Lot)
    Jacob’s Trouble
    Beginning of the Reign of Christ with his Bride
    (peace be still, fighting for Israel, still small voice, Spirit and Bride say come…)

    There are things that go on during these times, and commissions for the True followers of Christ to do. It is thought by the types that the Bride class (which we all aspire to be—but we have to be overcomers for that) will give a message to Babylon or Civil powers (ie. John the Baptist picture, Elijah smiting waters, Daniel and 3 Hebrews speak before the king) it is also thought that the Great Multitude also has a message to Israel, because they are the next target of Satan. Their message will be to the Holy Remnant (those saved) of Israel. But we also know from other scriptures the reason the Great Multitude isn’t worthy to escape the Great Time of Trouble is because they were lazy Christians. They are turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (scape goat left for Azazel--Satan, little sister is beaten up, foolish virgins go to the market (same place little sister did), didn’t pass the water test in Gideon, dallied in Sodom like Lot and had to be yanked out)

    I know I put a lot of stuff in here, that probably wasn’t part of the original question, but everything fits together and it is hard to separate

    Thanks for listening
    Last edited by FinalTrump; Dec 2nd 2009 at 04:24 PM. Reason: lost all formating

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalTrump View Post
    The Great Time of Trouble is a period of time which starts when the Bride of Christ is taken off the scene and into the Marriage, the door is shut and the 4 winds let loose.

    But there is other things that happen during this time.

    Next I believe is the fall of Mystic Babylon. (it is during the hour of power of Babylon that the Bride is put to death by Babylon—they will be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye) So after the fall of Babylon, then I believe the Great Multitude will be put to death (Rev. 7:14, they are also called the Bride’s maids—blessed is he who comes to the marriage supper—the supper is after the marriage). Then I believe there will be anarchy the world over, except in what Joel calls the Lord’s Great Army, this is the forces of Gog and Magog which come down to Israel to take a spoil---Jacob’s Trouble.

    As Stupes has said, they will be saved out of it. There are other scriptures to show this

    Dan. 12:1, he fights for them he did in days of old, delivered every one found written in the book
    Isa. 4:3, he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written
    Zechariah 12:6-8, save the tents of Judah first
    Jer 46:28, will not make a full end of thee

    So in short the order of events as I see the Scriptures to teach are as follows:

    Psalm 83
    Hour of Power of the Beast (aka. Mystic Babylon, Jezebel in type, Man of Sin, Antichrist, Beast of Dan 2,7)
    Bride of Christ put to death (the antitype of John the Baptist beheaded, Elijah taken, Wise Virgins, Lord’s Goat, Gideon’s 300, Daniel’s promotion before fall of Babylon, 3 Hebrew Children, Rock cut out of the Mountain, first sister in Song of Sol. Noah and family enter the ark—door shut)
    4 Winds let loose, Great Time of Trouble Begins, loosing of fallen angels
    Fall of Babylon (same as beast above)
    Death of Great Multitude (aka. Foolish Virgin class, Scape Goat class, Elisha class, little sister in Song of Sol. Lot)
    Jacob’s Trouble
    Beginning of the Reign of Christ with his Bride (peace be still, fighting for Israel, still small voice, Spirit and Bride say come…)

    There are things that go on during these times, and commissions for the True followers of Christ to do. It is thought by the types that the Bride class (which we all aspire to be—but we have to be overcomers for that) will give a message to Babylon or Civil powers (ie. John the Baptist picture, Elijah smiting waters, Daniel and 3 Hebrews speak before the king) it is also thought that the Great Multitude also has a message to Israel, because they are the next target of Satan. Their message will be to the Holy Remnant (those saved) of Israel. But we also know from other scriptures the reason the Great Multitude isn’t worthy to escape the Great Time of Trouble is because they were lazy Christians. They are turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh (scape goat left for Azazel--Satan, little sister is beaten up, foolish virgins go to the market (same place little sister did), didn’t pass the water test in Gideon, dallied in Sodom like Lot and had to be yanked out)

    I know I put a lot of stuff in here, that probably wasn’t part of the original question, but everything fits together and it is hard to separate

    Thanks for listening
    If they are taken out of it, why then would they need to be protected from it?

    Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

    Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Does the following not show that they are in the midst of it?

    Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

    Firstfruits

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    Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    The winds are not released until the servants are sealed.

    There is two different ways to look at the sealing.
    1) when they reach the mark and stand--at that point they have finished the course but have not had their change
    2) they have completed #1 and have received their change.

    I prefer #2 because they are promised to escape it and all the scriputres must be harmonized. (that is the Bride and not the secondary class of saints who must go through it.)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FinalTrump View Post
    Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    The winds are not released until the servants are sealed.

    There is two different ways to look at the sealing.
    1) when they reach the mark and stand--at that point they have finished the course but have not had their change
    2) they have completed #1 and have received their change.

    I prefer #2 because they are promised to escape it and all the scriputres must be harmonized. (that is the Bride and not the secondary class of saints who must go through it.)
    Why is it assumed that the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. are one in the same? Because they both number the same and have the name of the Father on their foreheads? Why can God not have two groups? One from Israel, and the other is the bride. That's how I see it. Those of the tribes of Israel are on earth. And those that follow the lamb wherever He goes are redeemed from the earth, the firstfruits.

  10. #10
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    Hello Beckrl, I was looking for something I could agree with you about, and I found something. I find what you are saying is soooo true.

    Quote - The GT is about the nation of Israel for rejection the Messiah and then the christain Jews will be scattered unto all nations.
    This end will effect all nations.

    The nation of Judah, (The Jews) rejected Christ in the first century, And were scattered.

    Judah was never called Israel in the old testament after Solomon's son Rehoboam became king. And the kingdom was split into Judah and Israel. (You might find it somewhere, But I donít think so)

    The nations of Israel did not reject Jesus at that time, because they didnít know. Jesus told the disciples to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.


    Mt 10:6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


    Mt 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

    Mt 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    Now the nations of Israel are rejecting Jesus the Christ. TWTaylor

  11. #11
    Great is something. Then when 1/3's of the worlds population starts dieing off, it would seem unlikely to be just centered in one country....
    If it's not centered to just one country, why does Jesus advise his followers to get out of Judea? [Matthew 24.16] If it's a worldwide event, what kind of advice is it to be told to leave one nation if every other one is experiencing the same thing?

    The time of Jacob's trouble.
    No. Jacob's Trouble already took place. It was when the Jews were delivered from their exile in Babylon. Take Jeremiah 30.7 in context. You can't ignore the fact that Jeremiah had just been speaking about the exile in the previous chapter. "Jacob's trouble" is when the Media-Persian empire came against Babylon, yet the Jews were delivered through the overthrow, and allowed to return to their homeland. Stop tearing Scripture out of its context.

    Why is it assumed that the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. are one in the same? Because they both number the same and have the name of the Father on their foreheads? Why can God not have two groups? One from Israel, and the other is the bride. That's how I see it.
    God has one people. Claiming that God has two covenant peoples, Israel and the Church, is completely false.
    Romans 9.6-8: For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
    Romans 10.12-13: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
    Read Romans 11. How Israel consists of the Jews who remain faithful to God and his Christ, and of the Gentiles who become faithful to God and his Christ.
    Galatians 3.28-29: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female. If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, and heirs according to the promise.
    How can this passage be any clearer? If you belong to Christ, then you are one of Abraham's descendants... Israel. The Church is Israel. Claiming that God has two distinct, co-existing covenant peoples is in complete contradiction with these passages.

    One from Israel, and the other is the bride.
    And this is by far your most troubling statement. Why? Because in the Old Testament, God consistently identifies Israel as his wife. [Isaiah 54.6; Jeremiah 3.20; Ezekiel 16.32]

    Are you seriously claiming that God has both a wife and a bride at the same time? Is God a bigamist? No. God has one Covenant people. The Church is true Israel.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by stupes View Post
    Why is it assumed that the 144,000 mentioned in Rev. are one in the same? Because they both number the same and have the name of the Father on their foreheads? Why can God not have two groups? One from Israel, and the other is the bride. That's how I see it. Those of the tribes of Israel are on earth. And those that follow the lamb wherever He goes are redeemed from the earth, the firstfruits.
    Israel was harvested at the end of the Jewish Age, which ushered in the Gospel Age. Likewise Christendom will be harvested which ushers in the Millennial Age.

    Favor cannot return to Israel until the "time of the Gentiles is fulfilled" The "time of the Gentiles" is the favor Gentiles got after Israel was cast off. So in other words what it is saying Israel will not come back into favor (life to dry bones--two sticks joined) until the Bride is gone. Israel doesn't recognize Jesus as Messiah until after Jacob's Trouble--look upon him whom they have pierced. The Church and Great Multitude are off the scene before Jacob's Trouble. Israel can be saved like in days of old, because now favor has returned.

    I borrowed this post of mine from another thread, but it explains why I think the 144K is the Bride of Christ.

    This is a big subject, but lets try to break it down into different parts, but this discussion will only cover the 144K.


    The 144,000. Who are they? The standard answer you will get is that they are actual Jews who will be saved in the last days. We find this reference in the book of Revelation, which is a book of symbols. We see that the 4 winds are being held back until the "servants of God are sealed", then it enumerates the tribes of Israel.


    A couple of things we notice that two tribes are missing: Ephraim and Dan. This is very significant, and as this is a book of symbols, we need to find the significance.


    "Ephraim" which is besides being a name of a tribe, is sometimes used to describe the composite 10 tribes. Ephraim means multi-fruitful, that is, a large seed-bearing progeny later designated "a great multitude" (verse 9). This tribe is described in Hosea 7:8 as a cake not turned (immature), or "silly dove" in Hosea 7:11 (unwise), and in Matthew 25:1-13 as the foolish virgins (combining the thoughts of unwise and immature).


    We ar told star differeth from star in glory. Ephraim is a spirit class, but not the brightest star in the heavens. In the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, she doesn't get in before the door is shut, she doesn't go to the marriage, hence she is not the Bride of Christ. But is she lost totally? No. She has a promise:


    And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. (Rev 19:9)


    She gets to go to the reception. She is also shown elsewhere in the scriptures as "bridesmaids", which are not like bridesmaids today, these were servants, and we see that born out in Revelation chapter 7 that they serve before the throne, but they don't sit in the throne.


    Next is the tribe of Dan. Gen. 49:17 calls Dan a serpent in the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward [to destruction--see 1 Sam. 4:18] Dan pictures a second death class who get no reward of life on any plane.
    So now that being said, if the missing tribes represent classes of individuals with different destinies, the remaining represent classes with all the same destiny.


    For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:15-16)
    And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. (Rom 4:12-13)


    Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:6-8)


    Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Rom 9:24-26)


    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-29)


    And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Rom 11:17)


    These scriptures describe the gentile Christians as the Israel of God, the seed of Abraham, showing there is no difference. I believe that in the listing of the tribes in Revelation that are part of the 144K, they are describing the Bride of Christ. Today we think of Personality types, sanguine, choleric, melancholic, and phlegmatic. These are the ones I learned and there are blends of them. I have seen as many as 16 different types listed on the internet. We cannot be all Pauls or Peters, Marys or Marthas, but yet as different as we all are, we can be of the Bride of Christ. I think this listing shows that there is variety in the true Body of Christ, we all have different personalities, but yet we make up the whole.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by stupes View Post
    They were already scattered. And we are told that the Jews were blinded for the sake of the Gentiles - and they would be trodden under foot until the fulness of the Gentiles. This ship has sailed brother. God scattered them in 70AD and called them back in 1948. The word says Israel will be saved out of the time of His trouble - not scattered.

    Jer. 30:
    [7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
    [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
    [9] But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
    [10] Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
    Did you just say that they were already scattered? God saved them from the destruction in 70ad.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post

    No. Jacob's Trouble already took place. It was when the Jews were delivered from their exile in Babylon. Take Jeremiah 30.7 in context. You can't ignore the fact that Jeremiah had just been speaking about the exile in the previous chapter. "Jacob's trouble" is when the Media-Persian empire came against Babylon, yet the Jews were delivered through the overthrow, and allowed to return to their homeland. Stop tearing Scripture out of its context.
    So you defind that to be the greatest time of trouble ever.

    7Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    Did you just say that they were already scattered? God saved them from the destruction in 70ad.
    The Jews have been scattered since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. They reassembled as a national Israel in 1948. Ever since, they have been gathering together again in droves from the four corners of the earth!

    Have you missed that fact, somehow? It is all in line with prophetic scripture. We are waiting now for Christ. "Jacob's trouble" has yet to come upon them.

    Jeremiah 30:3
    For the time is coming when I will restore the fortunes of my people of Israel and Judah. I will bring them home to this land that I gave to their ancestors, and they will possess it again. I, the Lord, have spoken!


    Jeremiah 30:10b-11
    “For I will bring you home again from distant lands,
    and your children will return from their exile.
    Israel will return to a life of peace and quiet,
    and no one will terrorize them.
    For I am with you and will save you,”
    says the Lord.
    “I will completely destroy the nations where I have scattered you,
    but I will not completely destroy you.
    I will discipline you, but with justice;
    I cannot let you go unpunished.”

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