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Thread: The angel that precedes another angel?

  1. #1
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    The angel that precedes another angel?

    Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

    Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

    Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

    Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.


    The way it looks to me, even if it's not the same angel in all cases, if there is another angel, then this means that there has to be an angel or angels which precede another angel. For example, according to Rev 18:1, John sees another angel come down from heaven. This must mean that John has seen an angel come down from heaven prior to this, otherwise wouldn't it just say "I saw an angel come down from heaven", instead of "I saw another angel come down from heaven"?

    In each of these passages that I have listed, can anyone identify the angel or angels that precedes another angel?

    I'll do the easy one. The angel that precedes the angel in Revelation 14:8, would be the angel in Revelation 14:6. Now the question is, which angel precedes the angel in Revelation 14:6?

  2. #2
    Whenever John says he saw "another angel", it does not mean that one specific angel followed after a previous specific angel. It simply means that, in relation to each of the angels John had already seen, he was seeing yet one more angel appear in his visions.

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    You're getting the picture....though it's not entirely clear yet, however, you are on the right track. Let me open up something else for you, there are three angels listed in Rev 14, one following another, each baring a message; who are they? And what are their messages? I'm sure you figure out the last two, but who is the first of the three?


    hint: don't forget that sometimes the term angel means messenger, another term for prophet.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Whenever John says he saw "another angel", it does not mean that one specific angel followed after a previous specific angel. It simply means that, in relation to each of the angels John had already seen, he was seeing yet one more angel appear in his visions.


    Actually I tend to agree with you here, or at least I think I do.

    I'm certain that you know that I'm premil, but what got me to thinking about this topic, was Revelation 18:1.

    Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    It says here that another angel came down from heaven. This tells me that John saw an angel come down from heaven prior to this, even if it was unrelated to this vision. The only Scripture that I have found so far, where an angel came down from heaven would be this one:

    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.


    If this is indeed the first angel that John sees coming down from heaven, then this certainly presents a problem for my current position, the premil position, because Revelation 20:1 would have to occur before Revelation 18:1. Could it be possible that the angel in Revelation 20:1 is the very first angel John sees, in relation to the earthly realm, and this is why when he sees an angel, such as in Revelation 10:1, it would be another angel, based on first seeing this angel in Rev 20:1?

    If it was unclear before, can you now somewhat see where I am trying to go with this? My current understanding is at stake if I am right. But I can deal with that, since I would rather be right, than to think I'm right when I'm really wrong. With that said, I'm still somewhat stubborn about things. I've got to be 100% convinced that I'm wrong, before I would consider changing my position. And this goes for anything, not just endtimes things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    You're getting the picture....though it's not entirely clear yet, however, you are on the right track. Let me open up something else for you, there are three angels listed in Rev 14, one following another, each baring a message; who are they? And what are their messages? I'm sure you figure out the last two, but who is the first of the three?


    hint: don't forget that sometimes the term angel means messenger, another term for prophet.


    The only other ones I see in that passage are the Lamb and the 144,000. Would they be the other angel/messenger?

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    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The only other ones I see in that passage are the Lamb and the 144,000. Would they be the other angel/messenger?
    Nope....these are the ones I am speaking of.... 5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

    9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    You were on the right track, but there was 1 more besides the two you mentioned earlier. Notice how 2 of them seem to have a message that the world and the beast would hate.

    Something I've been noticing about Revelation is what takes place in heaven, in the spiritual realm is copied here on earth. "His will be done in earth as it is in heaven". And I've noticed that there is a lot of common sense that we seem to missing because we make it to be more difficult to understand than it really is. Just like here in the earth, for every action there is a reaction, so what takes place there in heaven affects what takes place here on earth. And what action takes place in heaven has a heavenly reaction, just like there is an earthly reaction, or vice versa.

    Cause and effect is important to remember when studying Revelation. God has really opened up things to me a lot lately. It started as just a little bit at a time over the last few years, but then the whole "cause and effect" thing dawned on me and that was it....I'm getting a very clear picture now.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  7. #7
    As for chapter 7, John saw four angels standing on the four corner, then saw another angel ascending...

    Chapter 8, John saw seven angels which stood before God, then saw another angel came and stood at the altar.
    Chapter 10, Then after the sixth angel with the trumpet, John saw another migthy angel come down from heaven.

    So you get the point. It not the point whether the angel is ascending or coming down but what John saw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    As for chapter 7, John saw four angels standing on the four corner, then saw another angel ascending...

    Chapter 8, John saw seven angels which stood before God, then saw another angel came and stood at the altar.
    Chapter 10, Then after the sixth angel with the trumpet, John saw another migthy angel come down from heaven.

    So you get the point. It not the point whether the angel is ascending or coming down but what John saw.


    With all of this in mind, there would be no reason to read Rev 20:1 out of order afterall. The angel simply comes down from heaven at the conclusion of ch 19. I was willing to accept that perhaps the premil position was not correct, but after reading your post, you've pretty much convmced me that I've been right all along. And the ironic thing about it, you're not even premil.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    With all of this in mind, there would be no reason to read Rev 20:1 out of order afterall. The angel simply comes down from heaven at the conclusion of ch 19. I was willing to accept that perhaps the premil position was not correct, but after reading your post, you've pretty much convmced me that I've been right all along. And the ironic thing about it, you're not even premil.
    Wait a minute

  10. #10
    It says here that another angel came down from heaven. This tells me that John saw an angel come down from heaven prior to this, even if it was unrelated to this vision. The only Scripture that I have found so far, where an angel came down from heaven would be this one
    You're reading John's statement in 18.1 as saying "I saw another from heaven"... it is best to read it as "I saw another angel, from heaven".

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinsight4u8 View Post
    Notice in Rev. 19:1 John began a new story. That story is never again broken away from the rest of Rev, with John ever again saying - "after" as in one thing was revealed - and then after that he saw another scene start up.

    Rev. 20 requires that this part be identified ahead of verse 4.

    "they"

    Otherwise we do not know who sat.

    This is the army that fought in Rev. 19 as to took down the beast.

    If all the angels went to heaven - at the time of the Rev. 19 sence of the rapture, then John would have to see the angels as to staritng over again - if any of them again come from heaven.

    Rev. 7 shows that all the angels stand at the time the great multitude is seen.



    I'm honestly trying to be objective, even tho I'm currently premil. Why didn't Rev 20:1 state that another angel descended from heaven? I've read enough of your posts to know that you're very observant about things, such as 'angel' and 'the angel'. Why would it be different here for you?

    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    Revelation 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow

    Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.


    Based on the way you reason things overall, why wouldn't the angel in Rev 20:1 not be the first angel John sees? In the first part of the clause in all 3 verses, the language is pretty much the same, except Rev 20:1 is missing the 'another'.



    As an unrelated example, look at this verse:

    Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

    We see that there appeared another wonder in heaven, meaning a prev wonder in heaven would have to occur first.

    Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:


    Wouldn't this be the prior wonder in heaven? And what about this verse?

    Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


    What would be the previous sign John saw in heaven, since there would have to be a previous one, in order for there to be another one? Would it not be what he first saw in Rev 12:1?


    Somehow I can't help but think, that throughout the book of Revelation, 'another' is being used, in order that we can unravel the events in their correct orders. The way things look to me, in order for there to be another, there must be a previous. We know that John saw many angels. The question is, which angel/s did he see first?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    You're reading John's statement in 18.1 as saying "I saw another from heaven"... it is best to read it as "I saw another angel, from heaven".
    I agree. And I think Rev 10:1 should be read the same way. He had previously seen angels and the angel of Rev 10:1 was "another angel" and that particular angel was seen coming down from heaven. Same for the angel he saw in Rev 18:1. In the case of Rev 10:1, it isn't that he had previously seen an angel coming down from heaven before that, but that he had previously seen angels and the one he saw in Rev 10:1 was coming down from heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I agree. And I think Rev 10:1 should be read the same way. He had previously seen angels and the angel of Rev 10:1 was "another angel" and that particular angel was seen coming down from heaven. Same for the angel he saw in Rev 18:1. In the case of Rev 10:1, it isn't that he had previously seen an angel coming down from heaven before that, but that he had previously seen angels and the one he saw in Rev 10:1 was coming down from heaven.


    The ironic thing about it, the more I read in this thread by non premils, the more I realize I've been right all along, that premil is the correct position. BTW, I pretty much agree with your conclusions here, as also I do with Markedward's, and Bekrl's. Based on what I've read so far, I see no reason to not read Rev 20:1 chronologically after ch 19. I thought that perhaps I was raising a valid point, regardless that it would be contradicting my current position. I'm not certain if anyone is even getting my point tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The ironic thing about it, the more I read in this thread by non premils, the more I realize I've been right all along, that premil is the correct position.
    I don't see that this has anything to do with premil or amil. How are you coming to that conclusion? Revelation would have to be one long continuous chronological vision in order for this to support premil, but that is clearly not the case. For example, Christ was not born (Rev 12:5) after the seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15-18).

    BTW, I pretty much agree with your conclusions here, as also I do with Markedward's, and Bekrl's. Based on what I've read so far, I see no reason to not read Rev 20:1 chronologically after ch 19.
    Based on what exactly? I don't see how you can come to that conclusion based on anything that's been said in this particular thread.

    I thought that perhaps I was raising a valid point, regardless that it would be contradicting my current position. I'm not certain if anyone is even getting my point tho.
    I understand the point that you raised, but I just don't see it as being valid. Using the same kind of logic you could conclude that John sees the "mighty angel" of Rev 18:21 before he sees "another mighty angel" in Rev 10:1 because there is no previous mention of a mighty angel before Rev 10:1. Do you think that makes sense to come to that conclusion using that logic? I don't. I believe things are in the correct order that John saw them, but that doesn't mean everything he saw occurs in chronological order. He didn't see one vision, he saw several different ones. Do you understand what I'm saying?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    The ironic thing about it, the more I read in this thread by non premils, the more I realize I've been right all along, that premil is the correct position.
    This really has no bearing on premil or postmil or amil. I don't see how this could make you "realize" you've "been right all along" when it has no direct relevance to the millennial debate.

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