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Thread: Post here to ask questions about partial preterism..sincere questions only..thanks

  1. #1
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    Post here to ask questions about partial preterism..sincere questions only..thanks

    On the other thread titled: Partial-preterism-heretical? People were doing more asking questions then really answering the OP so I decided to start a new thread..bring some of those questions or comments over here so that thread doesn't continue to be derailed. I hate to leave posts hanging with no response because they are off topic. I will admit markedward and others on here are further along in their studies on this so I might not have all the answers but I will do the best I can and they can correct me if I get something wrong.

    I do not want this to turn into a debate though..I simply don't have the time or energy for debates and find those are usually fruitless anyway. If you don't agree with this viewpoint..fine! Doesn't matter to me. I would like this to be an information thread to simply clear up some things about our views that people don't understand. A learning thread. You do not have to agree..its ok to disagree..I have no problems with that. I am used to people not agreeing with me. This is one of many end time views..its not a salvation issue so people don't need to get SO upset over it as if it were.

    Lets approach this topic with an open mind to the Holy Spirit, an open heart and most of all, with God at our side.

    I realize this viewpoint is drastically different then what most believe or have been taught..and because of that it can be difficult to understand..especially if you have read many end time scriptures with the frame of mind that they are still in the future. To see them in the past is very difficult for many. I know I have been there.

    We do NOT believe Jesus has had His Second Coming yet.

    Chaston

    After reading that Clarke link. The only problem I see is, that if people see most or all the events of Rev. being fulfilled in the past. And all they are waiting on is Christ to return, the antichrist can fool many who believe this by false peace. Sinces there are no signs in the future left to warn them. Am I missing something? That could be a really dangerous belief.
    Believe me, if someone..a ruler (which most refer to as the antichrist) reigns over the world I think we would notice that..and we sure would notice if he was able to bring peace to the planet. Christ Himself said He did not bring peace but a sword and since He controls everything there will never be world wide peace. The passage this idea of world wide peace comes from 1 Thessalonians 5:

    The Day of the Lord
    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.



    Clearly it tells us that the believers will not be caught unaware..we see this as having taken place in the past though:

    The Adam Clarke Commentary
    Verse 3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety
    This points out, very particularly, the state of the Jewish people when the Romans came against them; and so fully persuaded were they that God would not deliver the city and temple to their enemies, that they refused every overture that was made to them.

    Sudden destruction
    In the storming of their city and the burning of their temple, and the massacre of several hundreds of thousands of themselves; the rest being sold for slaves, and the whole of them dispersed over the face of the earth.


    Because the believers then were watching for the signs Christ told them about they were able to escape the city. There is nothing at all to suggest in that passage that any antichrist makes things peaceful nor anything to suggest it world wide either.

    Now for the sake of your viewpoint..as I said, if peace ever came world wide, we aren't so blind we wouldn't take notice of it. Yet, if destruction was to come upon the whole world, what could we do? Nothing. there would be no place to flee too that would be safe. And if a world leader..the antichrist, brought this peace, why would you think we would worship him? Christ will not rise up as some world leader and bring peace..so how could we be fooled? The bible says He will return the same way He left. He won't appear as some president or leader of the world in politics.

    As a side note..we do not call the beast in Revelation the antichrist. The spirit of the antichrist was in the world in Jesus time..its an attitude..not a person. There are very few verses on the antichrist anyway.

    1 John 2:18
    Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

    1 John 2:22
    Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.


    Also not sure why people think we would follow anyone that denies the Father and Son either!

    Also the beast in Revelation..alot of people are taught through movies and books he will be able to fool Christians into believing he is Christ. I would like for you to take a very close look at the description of him in the bible:

    Revelation 13
    5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.


    He speaks against God..blasphemies against God and all who are in Heaven and wars with the saints. Who exactly would be in doubt about his intentions here? Who would ever think this was Christ saying horrible things about God and the believers??

    Image this..here I am a Christian..I read my bible, go to church, pray..I say nice things about God my Father because I love Him with all my heart. He IS my Father. And I will be fooled by a man cursing God..? Cursing me for believing? Making war against me and trying to kill me?

    Does that make any sense at all?

    So far no atheist that calls me names on the internet and says I should be killed...has made me think for even a moment he is a believer and loves God.

    More posts answers on the next post.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Believe me, if someone..a ruler (which most refer to as the antichrist) reigns over the world I think we would notice that..and we sure would notice if he was able to bring peace to the planet. Christ Himself said He did not bring peace but a sword and since He controls everything there will never be world wide peace. The passage this idea of world wide peace comes from 1 Thessalonians 5:

    The Day of the Lord
    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.



    Clearly it tells us that the believers will not be caught unaware..we see this as having taken place in the past though:

    The Adam Clarke Commentary
    Verse 3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety
    This points out, very particularly, the state of the Jewish people when the Romans came against them; and so fully persuaded were they that God would not deliver the city and temple to their enemies, that they refused every overture that was made to them.

    Sudden destruction
    In the storming of their city and the burning of their temple, and the massacre of several hundreds of thousands of themselves; the rest being sold for slaves, and the whole of them dispersed over the face of the earth.


    Because the believers then were watching for the signs Christ told them about they were able to escape the city. There is nothing at all to suggest in that passage that any antichrist makes things peaceful nor anything to suggest it world wide either.
    Since you see 1 Thess 5:1-11 as being fulfilled, do you also see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as being fulfilled?

    Isn't 1 Thess 5:1-11 addressed to the church of the Thessalonians, which was a Gentile church? Why would Paul be telling them about what was going to occur in Jerusalem as if that event had anything to do with the Thessalonians specifically?

    Now for the sake of your viewpoint..as I said, if peace ever came world wide, we aren't so blind we wouldn't take notice of it. Yet, if destruction was to come upon the whole world, what could we do? Nothing.
    Destruction is coming upon the whole world and we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before it occurs. Nowhere in 1 Thess 5 does Paul say anything about having to flee the destruction. He tells us what will happen to believers on that day in 1 Thess 4:13-17.

  3. #3
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    divaD

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow
    Even if Jesus meant nation...then that nation was at that time destroyed wouldn't you say?
    Yes, this would be true. But how do we explain that the Jews are once again a nation? I know for a fact that some believe and teach that the Jews currently in Israel are not legit Jews, but they are phonies, imposters. They use Revelation 2:9 to support their theories(BTW, these would fit my definition of heretics...not someone that interprets the majority of Matt 24 as past fulfilled). I'm not sure how they come to that conclusion, but I think it's tied into the serpent seed doctrines somehow. But since it's absurd to think that phony Jews are occupying Israel now, then what was the point of all these things being entirely fulfilled in the 1st century(with the exception of the return of Christ), if the Jews would eventually become a nation once again?

    As to the rest of what you wrote, and as bad as 70 AD was, such as the many casualities, how can we even compare that to what Hitler did to the Jews in the 20th century? The Jewish casualties weren't in the thousands, but were in the millions
    It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died in the Great Revolt against Rome. When people today speak of the almost two-thousand-year span of Jewish homelessness and exile, they are dating it from the failure of the revolt and the destruction of the Temple. Indeed, the Great Revolt of 66-70, followed some sixty years later by the Bar Kokhba revolt, were the greatest calamities in Jewish history prior to the Holocaust. In addition to the more than one million Jews killed, these failed rebellions led to the total loss of Jewish political authority in Israel until 1948. This loss in itself exacerbated the magnitude of later Jewish catastrophes, since it precluded Israel from being used as a refuge for the large numbers of Jews fleeing persecutions elsewhere. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/revolt.html

    Now of course you could say that one million is still not six million like it was with Hitler.. I don't know why that would discount what happened then though or discount the very words of Jesus were fulfilled. Here is one example:

    Matthew19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

    The Adam Clarke Commentary
    Verse 19. And wo unto them (alas! for them) that are with child, escape; neither can they bear the miseries of the siege. Josephus says the houses were full of women and children that perished by the famine; and that the mothers snatched the food even out of their own children's mouths. See WAR, b. v. c. 10. But he relates a more horrid story than this, of one Mary, the daughter of Eliezar, illustrious for her family and riches, who, being stripped and plundered of all her goods and provisions by the soldiers, in hunger, rage, and despair, killed and boiled her own sucking child, and had eaten one half of him before it was discovered. This shocking story is told, WAR, b. vi. c. 3, with several circumstances of aggravation.

    We already discussed the complete destruction of the temple on the other thread which I have a link too in the OP if you want to go back and read that.

    As far as I know the Jews in Israel..at least many of them anyway are practicing Orthodox Jews...not fake Jews. Not sure why anyone would say that. The fact they are back as a nation has nothing to do with our end times views. I realize those with the futurist view point see it as prophesies fulfilled using OT scriptures which those verses apply to another time when yet again the Jews went home again and became a nation again...those were already fulfilled in the past. I also know many think since they are back it means they will build a third temple so Matthew 24 can be fulfilled. We see it as Matthew 23 and the destruction of the temple already happened and there is nothing in scripture about a third temple being built again.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  4. #4
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    ClayInHisHands

    See, here's what I don't understand. Everything has been fulfilled and we are in the figurative 1,000 years waiting until Satan is released to deceive the nations and the nations will set out to do battle against God's people(THE CHURCH)....that's what I was told when talking to markedward in another post that we were engaged in. I asked him what maybe he thought that it meant about how Satan would attack the church....like how would Satan set out to do this exactly? He said it is vague about that....and I agree, but only in light of a partial preterist view. I'm just referencing markedward because I'm not just drawing my own conclusions...so none of it is an attack on him and neither does it have anything to do with him from here on out in my post.

    Satan will be released to deceive the nations to gather them for battle. They march across the earth and surround the camp of God's people. Then it goes to say fire comes down from heaven and devours them. The devil, false prophet and beast are thrown into the lake of fire.

    Will Satan go around killing every Christian(shooting them, etc.)? How will he know who's saved and not saved? It surely can't be answered that just as soon as he gathers them for war...in an instant the devil and the nations are desroyed. What would be the point of Satan being released....if he doesn't go to battle anything?

    What I'm getting at is....are we just here...of course important as it is...we are spreading the Gospel and hoping and waiting for Jesus to return. Because as I understand it...from chapter 19 back, has happened already...am I accurate with this statement here? What else is there…this sounds dangerous to the point of being DOMINIONISM…where the church believes that it will usher in the coming of Christ by fulfilling The Great Commision and thus taking dominion over the earth. This doctrine suggests that the church does this through stopping injustices in our communities and society as a whole and setting out to make society more Godly as a whole...through government, schools.....etc.

    Basically…..“Christ in us must take dominion over the earth...The next move of God cannot occur until Christ in us takes dominion. The next move of God will unite His Son in marriage. The marriage supper of the Lamb, the completion of establishing the Kingdom, the eternal rule of God, will finally take place."

    We THE CHURCH have absolutely NOTHING TO DO with the return of Christ. God has His own timetable…His own plan and purpose. He will come back when He sees fit to….I think it to be arrogant and a flat out spit in the face of God to suggest we are holding the KEY to unlock the door for Him to send His Son Jesus back.


    In Christ’s Love
    I am honestly baffled as to how you came to this conclusion. No where in our view do we say we have the key to Christ returning nor do we say we take over the earth and force people to live by our beliefs.
    ClayInHisHands

    I know that the original OP was for us to show scripture that shows that Partial Preterist is heretical....but no one seems to be responding to questions from my posts. It has been said that the beast has already appeared and that the Great Tribulation has already happened.....what gives?

    Why is no one not seeing that....that fact, that all there is left, is to wait for Satan to be released. It doesn't make sense that Satan will be released to go out for a short while to decieve the nations into attacking THE CHURCH as a group or as individuals. And then be destroyed by God and tossed into the lake of fire. Explain to me how this works if there is no tribulation? Where does the famines and earthquakes all fall into....according to PP's they've already happened???...Am I to assume that we are no longer to WATCH for Jesus' return? We wait, yes, but do we WATCH ? What signs will we see?.....because based on what has been said we won't see any signs and if all of the sudden the nations across the earth begin to gang up on Christians and threaten their lives because of the name of Jesus....wouldn't it just make it easy...trust me I know persecution wouldn't be in the least easy, but if what has been said is true....we don't have to worry because there will be no horror of being tempted with taking a so called mark or placing are allegiance with the devil or Christ.

    Moonglow you said in a post earlier that there are a lot of views from the Partial Preterists views that would ruffle alot of feathers.....Please elaborate......what other views are held by PP's other than the endtime view that would ruffle feathers?
    What are some of the things you speciiclly believed in in the past that you held dear and now you do not, in light of adopting the Partial Preterists view? I believe that doctrines such as what to eat, what sabbath days to observe and "religion type" things of that nature should not be argued about. But when someone tells me that Revelation was written primarily for the 1st Century and that it talked about events in 70AD and then everything else is just different visions of the same thing...I tend to find that questionable.

    In Christ's Love
    That is fine to question..and ask questions about of course.

    We are still watching and waiting for Christ's return of course.

    http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt015.htm

    So then, we have seen Satan's destructive influence in the physical world (e.g., sickness), the political world (e.g., lawlessness), the spiritual world (e.g., temptation, sin, death), the intellectual world (e.g., distorting, deceiving, blinding), the ethico-judicial realm (e.g., slander before God), and the social realm (e.g., violent persecution). Everything he comes into contact with is degraded and destroyed. Shortly before the return of Christ in final judgment on the world, Satan will be released from the restraints that are now upon him, so that he will pursue his destructive bent with even greater intensity (Rev. 20:7-10). He will deceive again with the effectiveness he had in the Old Testament era. He will inflict plague and disease on the earth. He will turn the nations and kings of the earth against the Messiah and His church with severe persecution. Lawlessness and apostasy will characterize the day. But that day will be a short period in contrast to the long era of gospel prosperity which precedes it. That day does serve to impress upon us the nature and effect of Satan's operations; it illustrates the appropriateness of his title, "Destruction and Destroyer."


    I can only guess at exactly what will happen at this time. I can tell you one thing though, satan doesn't need to check every human being on this planet to see if they have a mark or not. He knew Job was one of God's when he approached God about Job in Heaven. Revelations tells us God puts a seal on us. Not a seal visualize to the eye though. I think we make a grave mistake when we see satan as 'like us' with a body and functioning in the same ways we do. He is a spirit..he knows the bible better then most of us. He knows human nature. He certainly knows who is God's and who isn't otherwise he could not try to tempt us or destroy us as he does even now. He is in the spiritual realm which Paul talks about here:

    Ephesians 6

    10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    If you read the rest of that passage you see our armor is all spiritual...there is nothing physical about it because we aren't fighting against flesh and blood. Its all spiritual.

    I can only guess as to what exactly will happen when he is released..I am still studying on this...but I think that last evening Jesus had before the cross gives us some clues. Actually His whole ministry does. As we read the gospels we notice time and time again the people or the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him but He kept escaping 'because His hour had not yet come".

    I am going to post scriptures, but not in book order..trying to keep it more in line with His life at least in a general order:

    Luke 13

    1 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.”
    32 And He said to them, “Go, tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.’ 33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.


    John 5

    16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
    18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    John 7
    25 Now some of them from Jerusalem said, “Is this not He whom they seek to kill? 26 But look! He speaks boldly, and they say nothing to Him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is truly[ the Christ? 27 However, we know where this Man is from; but when the Christ comes, no one knows where He is from.”
    28 Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, “You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. 29 But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me.”
    30 Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come. 31 And many of the people believed in Him, and said, “When the Christ comes, will He do more signs than these which this Man has done?”

    John 8:58-59

    58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
    59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    John 10

    Renewed Efforts to Stone Jesus

    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”
    33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.

    John 7:30
    Therefore they sought to take Him; but no one laid a hand on Him, because His hour had not yet come.

    John 8:20
    These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.

    John 16:32
    Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.


    For three years someone tried to kill Him and were plotting to kill Him but they were restrained from doing so until His time came.

    Then finally it did and we see satan at work then too.

    Luke 22
    The Plot to Kill Jesus
    1 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people.
    3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.


    Luke 22:53
    When I was with you daily in the temple, you did not try to seize Me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness.”


    My point of all of this is this: Jesus was not totally free from persecution in His life..just as we aren't either. But satan was bound from actually acting against Him until it was 'time'. Then we see satan clearly working through people to actually get Jesus arrested, tried and taking to the cross. But in even this time of 'darkness' God was still in control as He always is and everything went according to His plan. Satan didn't realize what he was doing was going to lead to his own demise...being bound again even more so. He thought if Jesus died, that would be the end of God's plans...he was wrong.

    http://www.cmfnow.com/articles/pt015.htm
    The binding of Satan is not a future event any more than the coming of God's kingdom is an exclusively future event. The power of the coming age has already been expressed, and Christ has installed God's redemptive kingdom as part of His messianic work. All this has been amply illustrated in the above discussion. We have also seen previously that the figure of being bound in chains does not represent total immobilization or complete cessation of activity (cf. II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6). To be bound with chains is to be restrained in a certain respect.

    The respect in which Satan is currently bound is explained in Revelation 20:2-3. Jesus Christ, an angel from heaven with the key of the abyss (cf. Rev. 1:18), has come to earth and has bound Satan (Rev. 20:1-2 with Matt. 12:28-29; Luke 10:17-20), committing him to the abyss (cf. Luke 8:31; John 12:31; Rev. 12:9). The effect of this restraint is infallibly explained as "that he should deceive the nations no more." Scripture does not go beyond that in interpreting the binding of Satan. That he is bound means that he no longer has the ability to deceive the nations in the way that he did previous to Christ's advent. The power of the proclaimed gospel can shatter Satan's attempt to lead people astray from the truth. Thus the church is assured of great power and success when it faithfully proclaims the whole counsel of God (cf. Rev. 19:11-21). Because Christ now rules the nations (Ps. 2:8-9; Rev. 12:5; 19:15-16) Satan is unable to deceive the nations. A missionary door of utterance has been opened to the nations for faith which no man can shut (Rev. 3:7-8; Acts 14:27; Col. 4:3). The Great Commission shall be accomplished, and all nations shall be made disciples of Christ (Matt. 28:18-20; cf. Rev. 7:9;

    11:15; 15:4), since all power in heaven and earth have been granted to Him and He is ever present with this power in His church. Thus the gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16). Evangelism and doctrinal edification are activities which the believer can forcefully and successfully engage in as God brings all nations to serve His Son (cf. Acts 2:34-36; Ps. 72; cf. Rom. 1:5; 15:11; 16:26, I Cor. 15:25-26; Col. 1:27-28; I Tim. 4:17).

    The believer's victory over Satan. therefore, is clear from the fact that Satan cannot prevent the proclamation of the gospel from being prosperous in this age. If the nations are not presently being discipled, it is not because Satan dominates the course of history. It is because Christians, like the church at Thyatira (cf. Rev. 2:18-29), have come to grant Satan more importance than he deserves and have failed to exercise their power (through God's kingdom proclamation) in the world. Believers have the power, via the gospel, to turn people from the power of Satan to God, from darkness to light (Acts 26:18). When the word of Christ is preached, its prevailing power brings many magicians to conversion so that they renounce their secret utterances and burn their expensive scrolls (Acts 19:19-20). Even those of the synagogue of Satan will be brought to submit to God's kingdom (Rev. 3:9) in fulfillment (though in a way opposite of that expected by the pseudo Jews) of Isaiah 60:14; 49:23; Ezekiel 37:28. The false religions will even be ultimately submissive to the true church! Therefore, in contrast to those who cause conflict by beguiling men with heretical doctrines and by serving their own bellies, the progress of the gospel and God's kingdom will establish peace. Not only has Christ crushed the serpent in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15, but His powerful promise to the church is that "the God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet shortly!" (Rom. 16:20). The church shares in her Savior's triumph over Beliar, the prince of the demons, Apollyon, Beelzebul, her adversary the devil. In the face of God's kingdom and its advance, the one who has been cast down from heaven is a serpent crushed by the Messiah, nothing more than a shackled dragon.


    Today as all through our Christian history, we see things in the background working to 'kill the gospel' to stop its spread. We see in our schools, our work, polices, even in some nations having a bible is illegal. Yet the message has spread to all nations inspite of those attempts to stop it. With Jesus people were working in the background to try to stop Him..it built and builts until God finally allowed it to happen. I think when satan is released all these things we see trying to work against us as believes will suddenly 'seem' to happen overnight. The binding being released so it can happen. When it does, though rejoice because it means Christ IS at the door.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  5. #5
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    ClayInHisHands

    to answer the original post then....do you see Partial Preterism doing what is described below...if you don't think this applies to the PP view, then why not and how?

    Revelation 22:18-19
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    I am aware that you may say the above verses do not apply....but please, and for lack of a better word....'humor' me then, by telling me why you don't think the Partial Preterists view doesn't add or take away.



    In Christ's Love
    (I edited personal comments to another member so I could just focus on your question).

    I don't see our view adding scriptures in Revelations..for instance we don't say their should be a 33 verse in some chapter that only has 32 verse..and write in our own. Nor do we take away any verses and say, oh that verse shouldn't be there. So I am really scratching my head here on how you think we are adding or taking away anything in Revelation. Maybe you could give an example?

    Thanks.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Since you see 1 Thess 5:1-11 as being fulfilled, do you also see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as being fulfilled?

    Isn't 1 Thess 5:1-11 addressed to the church of the Thessalonians, which was a Gentile church? Why would Paul be telling them about what was going to occur in Jerusalem as if that event had anything to do with the Thessalonians specifically?

    Destruction is coming upon the whole world and we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before it occurs. Nowhere in 1 Thess 5 does Paul say anything about having to flee the destruction. He tells us what will happen to believers on that day in 1 Thess 4:13-17.
    I know Paul didn't say that..I was referring to how some believe this through some pre-trib teachings.

    I think the reason Paul took the Thessalonians about this is because they were utterly confused about the coming judgment vs the resurrection as we read in the previous chapter in Thessalonians.

    1 Thessalonians 4 Adam Clarke

    Them which are asleep
    That is, those who are dead. It is supposed that the apostle had heard that the Thessalonians continued to lament over their dead, as the heathens did in general who had no hope of the resurrection of the body; and that they had been puzzled concerning the doctrine of the resurrection. To set them right on this important subject, he delivers three important truths: 1. He asserts, as he had done before, that they who died in the Lord should have, in virtue of Christ's resurrection, a resurrection unto eternal life and blessedness. 2. He makes a new discovery, that the last generation should not die at all, but be in a moment changed to immortals. 3. He adds another new discovery, that, though the living should not die, but be transformed, yet the dead should first be raised, and be made glorious and immortal; and so, in some measure, have the preference and advantage of such as shall then be found alive. See Dodd.


    Alot of rumors were going around with them on this..some had even stopped working because they thought Christ was about to return any minute. Plus they were suffering persecution by the Jews also and before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans also.

    I am sure markedward or others could answer this better then I could.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    In the last few months I have been reworking my eschatology, and through a series of changes I have now very nearly completely 'converted' to partial preterism. I suppose that at the moment I am a partial partial preterist. My question is this: What NT Scriptures are actually considered to be 'Second Coming' / 'physical resurrection of the church' passages? If the Olivet Discourse doesn't speak of it, and the seventh trumpet in Revelation isn't speaking about it, where in the Bible can I find 'legitimate' promises of this hope that we have? Thank you.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    I know Paul didn't say that..I was referring to how some believe this through some pre-trib teachings.
    But you quoted 1 Thess 5:1-11 and then said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow
    Clearly it tells us that the believers will not be caught unaware..we see this as having taken place in the past though:
    So, do you see 1 Thess 5:1-11 as being already fulfilled or not? Based on your comments, you do believe that, but I wonder if that's what you meant or not. If so, do you see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as being already fulfilled as well?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by astrongerthanhe View Post
    In the last few months I have been reworking my eschatology, and through a series of changes I have now very nearly completely 'converted' to partial preterism. I suppose that at the moment I am a partial partial preterist. My question is this: What NT Scriptures are actually considered to be 'Second Coming' / 'physical resurrection of the church' passages?
    Matthew 22.29-32; Luke 14.14; John 5.29; 11.24-26; Acts 17.32; 23.6; 24.15; Romans 6.5; 1 Corinthians 15; Philippians 3.10-12; Hebrews 6.2; Revelation 20.11-15.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    But you quoted 1 Thess 5:1-11 and then said this:



    So, do you see 1 Thess 5:1-11 as being already fulfilled or not? Based on your comments, you do believe that, but I wonder if that's what you meant or not. If so, do you see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as being already fulfilled as well?
    Sorry..I flunked grammar in high school. Seriously I did. I don't remember if I told you this or not though I have talked about this on other threads on the board. I do have a severe learning disability in reading, spelling..grammar, which also affects my short term memory. My IQ is normal though. What it boils down too is I have dyslexia. Its takes me a huge amount of effort to post information material on here and I mess up sometimes. I feel like alot of times you nickpick at every single word I say and frankly it makes me angry. I wish you would be a bit more gracious in your replies. Obvious in regards to the tribulation I meant the believers then..since my viewpoint is past on that. I thought I made it clear I that 1 Thess 5:1-11 happened in the past though.

    1 Thessalonians 5
    The Day of the Lord
    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.


    Isn't it interesting that every believer escaped the city before it was completely surrounded by the Romans? Therefore spared the wrath of God. And those outside of it knew not to enter it.

    As far as 2 Peter 3:10-12 at this point in my studies I think this will literally happen...but as in everything I study in the bible, as I learn and gain new insight, my opinion on this may change too.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Sorry..I flunked grammar in high school. Seriously I did. I don't remember if I told you this or not though I have talked about this on other threads on the board. I do have a severe learning disability in reading, spelling..grammar, which also affects my short term memory. My IQ is normal though. What it boils down too is I have dyslexia. Its takes me a huge amount of effort to post information material on here and I mess up sometimes. I feel like alot of times you nickpick at every single word I say and frankly it makes me angry.
    That was not my intention at all. What is wrong with asking for clarification? You started this thread for the purpose of helping people understand the partial preterist view, right? So, what is wrong with my asking questions about what you said regarding the partial preterist view?

    I wish you would be a bit more gracious in your replies.
    Asking for clarification of what you were saying is a case of not being gracious? Sorry, but that simply is not true. Frankly, it seems like you are judging me here as if I have bad intentions and am attacking you or something. That is not the case at all. You invited people to ask questions in this thread and that's what I'm doing. Would you rather I just not ever talk to you on here? If that's what you prefer then just tell me and I will not reply to you anymore.

    Obvious in regards to the tribulation I meant the believers then..since my viewpoint is past on that. I thought I made it clear I that 1 Thess 5:1-11 happened in the past though.
    Yes, what you said seemed clear and that's what prompted my question regarding whether or not 2 Peter 3:10-12 also occurred in the past, but you didn't answer that question. I'm surprised that anyone would think 1 Thess 5:1-11 was already fulfilled so that's why I wanted to ask for clarification on that.


    1 Thessalonians 5
    The Day of the Lord
    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.


    Isn't it interesting that every believer escaped the city before it was completely surrounded by the Romans?
    Where does 1 Thess 5:1-11 say anything about Jerusalem?

    As far as 2 Peter 3:10-12 at this point in my studies I think this will literally happen...but as in everything I study in the bible, as I learn and gain new insight, my opinion on this may change too.
    Okay, here is why I asked you whether you thought 2 Peter 3:10-12 was fulfilled or not. As of now you believe it has not happened but will literally happen in the future. Do you notice that, in that passage, Peter speaks of the day of the Lord coming as a thief in the night? That's what Paul says in 1 Thess 5:2 as well. So, why wouldn't they be speaking of the same thing? Do you see my point?

  12. #12
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    Would you rather I just not ever talk to you on here? If that's what you prefer then just tell me and I will not reply to you anymore.
    That would be quite nice actually. This is thread is for those truly seeking to understand better and you have made it clear many times you disagree with this view. Its not a debate thread.
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    That would be quite nice actually. This is thread is for those truly seeking to understand better and you have made it clear many times you disagree with this view. Its not a debate thread.
    I am truly seeking to understand how you interpret 1 Thess 5:1-11 better. We don't have to debate it. I'm asking for clarification as to how you came to interpret it the way you do. Wasn't that the purpose of this thread, to clarify your view? So, if you do that then that's fine with me and I won't say any more about it.

    You said in your OP "You do not have to agree..its ok to disagree". But it's not okay for me to disagree? Can you not take my word for it that I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, as you seem to think is the case, and instead I am asking questions for the sake of clarification, which I thought was what this thread was supposed to be about?

  14. #14
    As concerning 2 Thess 2:1-11 as being pasted fulfilled. Those in Thess were being persecuted along with many in other cities just because they were christains and more so of they were Jewish.
    4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
    They were looking for that "day of the Lord" of revenge or the "day of Messiah is at hand." They were looking for a Deliverer from their tribulation and persecutions.

    6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
    So it may not be the same as we my think of his coming, They were looking for that Messiah to come a rule and reign in which will destory those enemies.

    I guess I had a laspes too, i had to reread earlier post and found that the verses where from 1 Thess 5:1-15

    I would say it speaks of "the day of the Lord" and that they should be aware of it coming because they were of the light. Paul says that they [ of the dark] shall say peace and safety then sudden destruction would come upon them as a woman with child.

    I would say that the bible speaks of many "a day", " day of the Lord" that bring judgment and that God uses other nations to carry out this judgement.
    Last edited by Beckrl; Jan 28th 2010 at 10:08 PM. Reason: quoted wrong verse; edited

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    Post here to ask questions about partial preterism..sincere questions only..thanks
    1) Daniel 2 states the following:
    2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

    I have heard that partial preterists have a similar view to my own that the gold is Babylon,the silver is Perisa, the brass is Greece, and the iron is Rome.
    My question: in what way were these four kingdoms broken together in history? The futurist view is simple, when Jesus comes all these kingdoms will be destroyed together, simultaneously.

    2) Daniel 7 states the following:
    7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    How is this to be interpreted? It seems the saints are persecuted first and then the saints possess the kingdom. A futurist view is simple, we get persecuted, then there is the resurrection at the second coming, and then we rule.
    What is the pp view on this, because if the saints possess the kingdom at the crucifixion, then how were they persecuted before that? The persecution is first, and then the possession afterwards. And if the persecution is referring to the events preceding 70 AD, in what way do the saints then possess the kingdom after the persecution, surely they inherited the kingdom of God on salvation or at the crucifixion?
    My question: how do partial preterists view v21 and v22

    3) Daniel 11:35-12:2 states the following:

    11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
    11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
    11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
    11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
    11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
    11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
    11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
    11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
    11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
    11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
    11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

    My Question: What historical figure matches the above verse?. I have already looked into Nero and Herod the Great, and see little correlation between their actual lives and what is prophesied here. Possible emphasis is the wars from the king of the north ad the king of the south, and of course the control of Egypt, and the point about Edom, Moab, and Ammon, his conquering Israel, his stay in Israel, the tidings form the east and north.

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