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Thread: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

  1. #1

    What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    How is it that souls are under the altar and ask for revenge on those that have killed them? In response are told to rest and are given white robes, they are to rest until other fellow servants also must be killed before their revenge can be poured out.

    I've in the past thought that these would be the old covenant saints (ie 144,000) and they would await for those that are killed during the great tribulation (Rev.6:9-17).

    If these are not those old testament saints, then who are they and why are they under the altar?

    I'm wanting to here from partial preterist, but would encourage all to comment.

  2. #2

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    They had been martyred for their testimony in Jesus, and ask God how long it would be until they were avenged for the persecution they had received. In turn, they are told to wait until after the full number of their brethren had also been persecuted, before God would turn the tables around and pour his wrath out on those who had been the persecutors.

    Historically, they are those who professed Jesus and were persecuted for doing so, prior to the "great tribulation" of 64-68 AD; they were persecuted by the apostate Jews. Then came the "great tribulation" of 64-68 AD, when the number of their martyred brethren was brought to completion, and God in turn poured out his wrath on the apostate Jews, destroying their homeland and their temple.

    The thing that the Christians are persecuted for in the fifth seal, is the very same thing that Babylon the Great is blamed for... and "Babylon" was first-century Jerusalem.

  3. #3

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    They had been martyred for their testimony in Jesus, and ask God how long it would be until they were avenged for the persecution they had received. In turn, they are told to wait until after the full number of their brethren had also been persecuted, before God would turn the tables around and pour his wrath out on those who had been the persecutors.

    Historically, they are those who professed Jesus and were persecuted for doing so, prior to the "great tribulation" of 64-68 AD; they were persecuted by the apostate Jews. Then came the "great tribulation" of 64-68 AD, when the number of their martyred brethren was brought to completion, and God in turn poured out his wrath on the apostate Jews, destroying their homeland and their temple.

    The thing that the Christians are persecuted for in the fifth seal, is the very same thing that Babylon the Great is blamed for... and "Babylon" was first-century Jerusalem.
    Thanks Mark, That's in a way I thought it would be, but wanted to verify. I'm trying to work through some thoughts and this in the way I understood it was causing me some difficult.

  4. #4
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    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    How is it that souls are under the altar and ask for revenge on those that have killed them? In response are told to rest and are given white robes, they are to rest until other fellow servants also must be killed before their revenge can be poured out.

    I've in the past thought that these would be the old covenant saints (ie 144,000) and they would await for those that are killed during the great tribulation (Rev.6:9-17).

    If these are not those old testament saints, then who are they and why are they under the altar?

    I'm wanting to here from partial preterist, but would encourage all to comment.
    Here's what I understand it to mean,

    In correlating Daniel with Mathew 24 with Revelation 6-7, 20 these folks are those who are killed for their faith in Jesus Christ from the beginning time of the last week known commonly as the Great Tribulation.

    when the first seal is opened by Christ through the opening of the 4th seal of Christ, Satan through his Antichrist works to control the world in following him. These folks die in their testimony of Jesus Christ.

    At the 6th seal, the sign of the Son of man coming to Earth to bring justice, judgment and retrieve His bride, and those who are slain for their faith at this time and who sit under God's alter waiting have been told to continue to wait until all their fellow servants and brethren who were to be killed as they have been be completed.

    We then find in Chapter 20 when they came back to life and reigned with Christ.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


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    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  5. #5

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    They had been martyred for their testimony in Jesus, and ask God how long it would be until they were avenged for the persecution they had received. In turn, they are told to wait until after the full number of their brethren had also been persecuted, before God would turn the tables around and pour his wrath out on those who had been the persecutors.
    They are NOT martyred for their testimony in Jesus. Unlike Rev 20:4 that says, ..."the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God." There is no mention of these souls under the altar giving testimony in or of Jesus.

    Re*6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Why no mention of Jesus at the opening of the fifth seal? I believe it is because they lived and died in faith before the cross. Could they be OT saints, who died in faith looking for fulfillment of the promise of Messiah to come? They would have been prophets of Messiah to come, but they would not have been witnesses of or in Christ.

    Historically, they are those who professed Jesus and were persecuted for doing so, prior to the "great tribulation" of 64-68 AD; they were persecuted by the apostate Jews. Then came the "great tribulation" of 64-68 AD, when the number of their martyred brethren was brought to completion, and God in turn poured out his wrath on the apostate Jews, destroying their homeland and their temple.
    If they died for professing Christ, why is there no mention of Christ as we find in Rev 20:4?

  6. #6

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    How is it that souls are under the altar and ask for revenge on those that have killed them? In response are told to rest and are given white robes, they are to rest until other fellow servants also must be killed before their revenge can be poured out.

    I've in the past thought that these would be the old covenant saints (ie 144,000) and they would await for those that are killed during the great tribulation (Rev.6:9-17).

    If these are not those old testament saints, then who are they and why are they under the altar?

    I'm wanting to here from partial preterist, but would encourage all to comment.
    Another interesting question regarding this passage Beck is what does it mean to be "under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"? Might it be reference to dying in faith before Christ and waiting in Abraham's bosom?

    Blessings,
    RW
    Last edited by RogerW; Aug 9th 2010 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Added last sentence for consideration.

  7. #7

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    They are NOT martyred for their testimony in Jesus. Unlike Rev 20:4 that says, ..."the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God." There is no mention of these souls under the altar giving testimony in or of Jesus.

    Re*6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Why no mention of Jesus at the opening of the fifth seal? I believe it is because they lived and died in faith before the cross. Could they be OT saints, who died in faith looking for fulfillment of the promise of Messiah to come? They would have been prophets of Messiah to come, but they would not have been witnesses of or in Christ.



    If they died for professing Christ, why is there no mention of Christ as we find in Rev 20:4?
    Roger, The one problem I have with this and it maybe it's just how I'm viewing them is these would account for the two witnesses one being the old covenant and the other the new covenant.(If these repersent the old and new covenant martyrs). Now if that's the case it at first seem pretty fitting , but then comes the timing of the 1290 days that they shall prophecy. How could that work for those of the old testament? That is the reasoning behind my trouble seeing them as the old saints. It would all point to those of the tribulation but only of the first part as Markedward has given.

  8. #8

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Another interesting question regarding this passage Beck is what does it mean to be "under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"? Might it be reference to dying in faith before Christ and waiting in Abraham's bosom?

    Blessings,
    RW
    That is an excellent question, one that I don't have the answer to. But that was the way I was looking at it, but now not sure.

  9. #9

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Looking for some answers about "souls under the altar" and came up with this:

    Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
    Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
    Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
    Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

    Abel's blood, not Abel himself, cried out to the Lord. Clearly this did not happen in a literal sense. Abel's shed blood cried out from the ground to the Lord symbolically, for justice to be done, for his blood to be avenged, just like in Rev 6:10.

    The book of Leviticus give us some interesting information about blood:

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    It is the Hebrew word nephesh that gives us the key:

    Lev 17:11 For the life [H5315 nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: [H5315 nephesh] for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [H5315 nephesh].

    The word nephesh occurs three times in that verse, and it is translated life, souls, and soul. So it would be just as proper to translate the verse as follows:

    Lev 17:11 For the soul of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Nephesh, according to Strong's dictionary, also has the meaning of breath, so this is also valid:

    Lev 17:11 For the breath of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


    The word translated "souls" in Revelation 6:9 in the Greek is psuche, G5590 in Strong's dictionary, which also has the meaning of life or breath. Since we have concluded that the blood carries the life and breath in Leviticus 17:11, and life, breath, soul, and blood are synonymous in this case, the following is also a proper translation:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the blood of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    Now verses 9 and 10 are coherent. It is the shed blood of the martyrs that is seen "under the altar", not immortal bodiless souls. Just as Abel's blood cries out symbolically for justice to the Lord, so does the blood of the martyrs "under the altar". So, just what does "under the altar" mean, and where is this altar.

    Now again, we have determined that Revelation 6:9 refers to the blood of Christian martyrs as being "under the altar". This expression "under the altar" is explained by how sacrificial blood was used in the sanctuary. And knowing that there are two altars the altar of burnt offerings in the outer court, and the altar of incense in the first apartment of the sanctuary, or holy place.


    Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    Now Revelation reveals to us that there are two groups of Martyred, and that is one reason I see them as the two witnesses howbeit I maybe wrong. but I do think this is an good start in determining.

  10. #10

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    As I wait on others to give their comments, I wanted to add these hints, I guess we can call them hints.

    Rev. 1:9
    “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the WORD OF GOD, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

    Rev.6:9-11
    “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls [blood] of them that were slain FOR THE WORD OF GOD, and for the testimony which they held:
    10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed AS THEY WERE, should be fulfilled.”


    Rev.12:17
    “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

    Not all of these verses have the same word for word, but they still say the same thing. To me there seems to be an pattern of the Jewish (woman) which can be represented as the 12 tribes of Israel and also the 12 apostles. Then we have her seed (jew and gentile). This pattern is throughtout the book of Revelation.(144,000 & Mulitiude) and (Two Witnesses). Maybe in the fifth seal would be another pattern of this Jew and Gentile. Help me out what do you see?

  11. #11

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    Roger, The one problem I have with this and it maybe it's just how I'm viewing them is these would account for the two witnesses one being the old covenant and the other the new covenant.(If these repersent the old and new covenant martyrs). Now if that's the case it at first seem pretty fitting , but then comes the timing of the 1290 days that they shall prophecy. How could that work for those of the old testament? That is the reasoning behind my trouble seeing them as the old saints. It would all point to those of the tribulation but only of the first part as Markedward has given.
    I believe the 1290 days is speaking of the time of Daniel until the coming of Messiah when He makes atonement for sin and puts an end to the sacrificial system. And the 1335 too, spans from Daniel's time unto the consumation of all things, or the last day. The Old Covenant faithful are not limited to only this time, they have been killed from Abel to Zacharias (Mt 23:35; Lu 11:51).

    Da*12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    The New Covenant era until the last day is referenced as 1260 days, 42 months, a thousand years, a time times and half a time. The time given the two witnesses to proclaim the gospel while being protected by God is 1260 days. The same time period, but referenced as 42 months is always associated with the beast and unsaved as they persecute the church throughout the New Covenant era. Since the 42 months and the 1260 days both symbolize the same time period the reference to a time, times, and a half a time signifies that God has designated the same amount of time to the kingdom of Satan to persecute the saints, trying to prevent the Kingdom of God from being completed. A thousand years also symbolizes the whole NC era.

    Blessings,
    RW

  12. #12

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    Looking for some answers about "souls under the altar" and came up with this:

    Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
    Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
    Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
    Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

    Abel's blood, not Abel himself, cried out to the Lord. Clearly this did not happen in a literal sense. Abel's shed blood cried out from the ground to the Lord symbolically, for justice to be done, for his blood to be avenged, just like in Rev 6:10.

    The book of Leviticus give us some interesting information about blood:

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    It is the Hebrew word nephesh that gives us the key:

    Lev 17:11 For the life [H5315 nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: [H5315 nephesh] for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [H5315 nephesh].

    The word nephesh occurs three times in that verse, and it is translated life, souls, and soul. So it would be just as proper to translate the verse as follows:

    Lev 17:11 For the soul of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Nephesh, according to Strong's dictionary, also has the meaning of breath, so this is also valid:

    Lev 17:11 For the breath of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    The word translated "souls" in Revelation 6:9 in the Greek is psuche, G5590 in Strong's dictionary, which also has the meaning of life or breath. Since we have concluded that the blood carries the life and breath in Leviticus 17:11, and life, breath, soul, and blood are synonymous in this case, the following is also a proper translation:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the blood of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    Now verses 9 and 10 are coherent. It is the shed blood of the martyrs that is seen "under the altar", not immortal bodiless souls. Just as Abel's blood cries out symbolically for justice to the Lord, so does the blood of the martyrs "under the altar". So, just what does "under the altar" mean, and where is this altar.

    Now again, we have determined that Revelation 6:9 refers to the blood of Christian martyrs as being "under the altar". This expression "under the altar" is explained by how sacrificial blood was used in the sanctuary. And knowing that there are two altars the altar of burnt offerings in the outer court, and the altar of incense in the first apartment of the sanctuary, or holy place.

    Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    Now Revelation reveals to us that there are two groups of Martyred, and that is one reason I see them as the two witnesses howbeit I maybe wrong. but I do think this is an good start in determining.
    You raise an interesting point about the life giving blood. My focus was the altar. If these are the same saints who come out of great tribulation, why are they seen 'under' the altar instead of before the throne, or even before the altar? Could it be they were under the blood of the sacrificial Lamb, Who had not yet come? IOW they were covered by the blood of Christ from before the foundation of the world, but they could not reign with Him in heaven until He literally came, died and ascended to heaven? They died in faith, went to the grave (Abraham's bosom) to wait for Christ to come and redeem them from the grave. These faithful saints are seen again being sealed (Spiritually resurrected) in Rev 7. Then we see them once more in Rev 14 where they are now before the throne in heaven.

    Blessings,
    RW

  13. #13

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    I believe the 1290 days is speaking of the time of Daniel until the coming of Messiah when He makes atonement for sin and puts an end to the sacrificial system. And the 1335 too, spans from Daniel's time unto the consumation of all things, or the last day. The Old Covenant faithful are not limited to only this time, they have been killed from Abel to Zacharias (Mt 23:35; Lu 11:51).

    Da*12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
    Hi Roger,
    I associate the time of trouble referred by Daniel (Dan.12:1) with the 1290 days and the time, times and half as given in (Dan.12:7 & 12:11).

    Where also we can fine in Daniel the reference to the fourth beast (Rome) that is given power to make war with the saints and prevail for an time, times and half. (Daniel 7:21, 25). We can also see this same pattern with the imagery of the woman of Revelation 12. Where she fled to the wilderness for a 1290 days, it is also spoken as an time times and half (Rev.12:14). But verses before that we fine the woman being persecuted by the dragon (Rev.12:13). The woman I would assume represents the elect of God of Israel which maybe also represented by the 144,000 firstfruits.

    I reflect on what Jesus said about the "elect" that if the time wasn't shorten that no flesh would be saved, but for the elect sake theses days shall be shorten, for if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect. (Matt.24:22,24). I would contribute that statement to the "woman" and or "144,000".

    The other pattern is that the woman also would be fitting of the two witnesses for they prophecy for a duration of 1290 days (Rev.11:4) where as the woman fled into the wilderness for the duration of 1290 days (Rev.12:6).

    Where I'm going with this I'm not sure just seeing alot of similarities. How does this relate to the souls under the altar? Just maybe this is telling that some of the woman but not all was persecuted and killed and seen by John under the altar. (Rev.12:11).
    The New Covenant era until the last day is referenced as 1260 days, 42 months, a thousand years, a time times and half a time. The time given the two witnesses to proclaim the gospel while being protected by God is 1260 days. The same time period, but referenced as 42 months is always associated with the beast and unsaved as they persecute the church throughout the New Covenant era. Since the 42 months and the 1260 days both symbolize the same time period the reference to a time, times, and a half a time signifies that God has designated the same amount of time to the kingdom of Satan to persecute the saints, trying to prevent the Kingdom of God from being completed. A thousand years also symbolizes the whole NC era.

    Blessings,
    RW
    While it would be the new covenant people but more as Daniel was told this time would be upon thy people Daniel (Israel)(Dan.10:24, 26).

    As for this time of trouble it shall be fulfilled then a thousand years of reign of Christ. Blessed is he that wait and comes to the 1335/1305 days. He that endure to the end shall be saved (Matt.24:13) This would correlate with the time of redemption refered to as the summer is at hand or should I say the destruction of Jerusalem. (Luke 21:28, 31). So the "end" was being referred to that end, again as in Daniel (7:28), (9:26,27).

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    You raise an interesting point about the life giving blood. My focus was the altar. If these are the same saints who come out of great tribulation, why are they seen 'under' the altar instead of before the throne, or even before the altar? Could it be they were under the blood of the sacrificial Lamb, Who had not yet come? IOW they were covered by the blood of Christ from before the foundation of the world, but they could not reign with Him in heaven until He literally came, died and ascended to heaven? They died in faith, went to the grave (Abraham's bosom) to wait for Christ to come and redeem them from the grave. These faithful saints are seen again being sealed (Spiritually resurrected) in Rev 7. Then we see them once more in Rev 14 where they are now before the throne in heaven.

    Blessings,
    RW
    The reference to Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    Again it seems by the reference that this altar was on the outside of the holy place that an burnt offering was given and the blood shall be poured out at the bottom (blood under) the altar which is at the very door of the tent of the congregation.

    One point is that it would be saying that those give their lives as an sacrifice on the altar. Now which altar and where may help us determine whom, if it's the inner court yard ,but before the vail it may be speaking of Jews before Chirst as the reference to the woman before having her child. Need more studing.....

  14. #14

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beckrl View Post
    Hi Roger,
    I associate the time of trouble referred by Daniel (Dan.12:1) with the 1290 days and the time, times and half as given in (Dan.12:7 & 12:11).
    Hi Beck,

    I believe Dan 12:1-3 depicts the whole New Covenant era that begins with the cross and ends with the bodily resurrection on the last day. Then in vs 4 Daniel is told to seal up the book because these things will not be until the time of the end. I think you will agree that the time of the end began when Christ ushered in the New Covenant in His blood. Throughout the New Testament this time of Christ is called the "last days." Then in vs 5-6 the man clothed in white linen is asked, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" In vs 7 the man clothed in white says, "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." And in vs 8 since Daniel did not understand, so he too asks, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?" Daniel is told what will happen during the time of the end, or the last days.

    Da*12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    Da*12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    Daniel is told from his own time until the time of the end, when Christ, by His death does away with the sacrificial system, there shall be 1290 days. Then from the time of Daniel to the end of days 1335 days.

    Da*12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    Da*12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
    Da*12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Clearly we have reference to time times and a half, 1290 days and 1335 days associated with the time of Daniel to the cross, and the cross to the end of time. But when we get to the Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 we read the two witnesses are given 1260 (not 1290) days to prophesy in the wilderness while under the protection and feeding of God. This time too is likened to "a time, and times and half a time."

    1290 days is from the time of Daniel to the cross.
    1335 days is from the time of Daniel to the end of time.
    1260 days is the time throughout the NC era from the cross when the witnesses proclaim the gospel and are nourished and protected by God.
    42 months is the time the heathen people (Gentiles/ethnos) from the cross forward tread the holy city.
    42 months is also the time the beast is given to bring blasphemies against God and His people.

    Rev 12:14..."where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
    Dan 7:25..."they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
    Dan 12:7..."for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

    The church is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, or 1260 days. The saints are given into the hand of the beast for a time and times and the dividing of time, or 42 months. All of these times are during the end of days, or the last days referenced in Rev 20 as a thousand years. The Kingdom of God is being built (1260 days), but at same time Satan and the world are working to keep the Kingdom of God from being completed (42 months). Throughout the New Covenant era there are times when the Kingdom of God is growing through the witnesses, and then there are times when it seems there is little or no growth (time, times, and half a time). We better understand what Christ means when He says, "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." What days? The days of evil (42 months) Satan is given to persecute the saints. God allows the persecution to continue only for a time, then He cuts it short so His Eternal Kingdom will be completed.

    Blessings,
    RW
    Last edited by RogerW; Aug 11th 2010 at 02:19 PM. Reason: made correction "from the time of Daniel to the end of days 1335 days"

  15. #15

    Re: What is the consenus view concerning the fifth seal (Partial Preterist)

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Hi Beck,

    I believe Dan 12:1-3 depicts the whole New Covenant era that begins with the cross and ends with the bodily resurrection on the last day. Then in vs 4 Daniel is told to seal up the book because these things will not be until the time of the end. I think you will agree that the time of the end began when Christ ushered in the New Covenant in His blood. Throughout the New Testament this time of Christ is called the "last days." Then in vs 5-6 the man clothed in white linen is asked, "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" In vs 7 the man clothed in white says, "that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." And in vs 8 since Daniel did not understand, so he too asks, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?" Daniel is told what will happen during the time of the end, or the last days.
    Roger,
    I guess we would differ here, I have also heard that many believe that the 144,000 firstfruits which stand on mount Zion in heaven as an virgin bethrothed to her husband as the bride (ie the whole church), but i think that isn't what is represented by the Jewish reference and the whole church, but the church indeed. I have taken that to mean to the Jews first (first fruits) then to the Gentiles.

    So what Daniel is refering to is the time of trouble that would come upon his people the Jewish nation. And within that time frame is the time times and half. For it was revealed to Daniel by this question "How long to the end of these wonders" (Dan.12:6) Daniel was told "time times, and half". This is the very same thing the disciples asked Jesus (Mark 13:4) " Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled"

    Jesus then refers back to Daniel prophecy and opens the seal of the vision.(Matthew 24:15) "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand" Jesus continues and says that after those days of tribulation then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man. (Matt.24:29-30).

    So the time times and half and the 1290 until 1335 days would be concerning the Jewish nation and her destruction. Those that would endure to the end shall be saved (Matt.24:13) Daniel says it this way "blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1335 days"

    "For many shall be made purified, and made white, and tried." I take that to be speaking of them that shall fall (Dan 11:33-35) who will be made white or given white robes as being overcomes even through death. (Rev. 2:10, 3:5 & 3:12) These are they which came out of great tribulation and sat on thrones and given judgment, those which have not received the name nor worshipped the beast (Rev.20:4).

    So I don't see that as the full church only those of the first fruits. Now the language of the resurrection in Daniel,(Dan12:2) while it would be speaking of the spiritual resurrection at any rate, but I'm not sure if it would also include the physical resurrection.

    The church is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, or 1260 days. The saints are given into the hand of the beast for a time and times and the dividing of time, or 42 months. All of these times are during the end of days, or the last days referenced in Rev 20 as a thousand years. The Kingdom of God is being built (1260 days), but at same time Satan and the world are working to keep the Kingdom of God from being completed (42 months). Throughout the New Covenant era there are times when the Kingdom of God is growing through the witnesses, and then there are times when it seems there is little or no growth (time, times, and half a time). We better understand what Christ means when He says, "except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." What days? The days of evil (42 months) Satan is given to persecute the saints. God allows the persecution to continue only for a time, then He cuts it short so His Eternal Kingdom will be completed.

    Blessings,
    RW
    Here, I don't agree that the last days is referred to in Rev. 20 as a thousand years. I believe because the last days have come to an end and then the beginning of the thousand years reign. The ending of the last days of the old covenant system, Peter proclaimed that they were in the fulfillment of the last days in which Joel prophecied. (Joel 2:28-32), (Acts 2:16-21) Just before the great and notable day of the Lord. That day of the Lord is the last day of the last days. Which have being prophesied by all the prophets that if Jerusalem would not turn back to God then righteous judgment would be poured out on her. (Matt.23:30-39).

    Now after this judgment which is given to those sitting on the thrones in which are the martyred saints (Rev.3:21) that they would ahve there revenge on those that killed them.(Rev.6:9-11) and their reign judging Israel is for a thousand years until the Lord's return.

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