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Thread: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

  1. #1
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    Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Which one do you believe will happen? I believe in post-trib rapture. I believe that christians that are alive when the great tribulation begins will suffer persecution and it will result in a global christian holocaust by the anti-christ. Once the anti-christ creates a one world government and eliminates all of the christians, I believe that the remaining christians will be raptured to meet Jesus in the clouds.

    If anybody can find a passage from the bible that suggests a pre-trib rapture, I'd like to see it.

  2. #2
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    I have not found any verse that is pre-trib except Rev 4:1 but you have to take that one out of context to make it fit (pretending John is the Church).

    The post tribulation rapture position (maybe pre-wrath, I am not that educated) is seen in the following Scriptures:

    1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.
    2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.
    3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).
    4. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).
    5. The second coming will be like the day of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).
    6. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.
    7. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).
    8. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.
    9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.
    10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).
    11. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.
    12. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).
    13. 2Thes 2:1-3 states the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not take place until the antichrist is revealed first (not the other way around).
    14. The day that comes as a thief in the night is after the GT, after the 6th seal, after all the trumpets and vials (see Rev 16:15; 2Pe 3:10; Joel 2:1-11). It is definitively not a day before the end of the GT.
    15. The rapture should not be a day that takes us by surprise. It should not come as a thief in the night for his elect (1Th 5:2; Rev 3:3; 1Cor 2:9-10). We are not supposed to be in darkness because the deep secrets of God the Father have been made available to us the Church through the Spirit.
    16. We should seek first the kingdom of God (Mat 6:33). If we do that, everything else will be added unto us. The time of the kingdom of God is the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:10). The Bible says we must go through much tribulation before entering in the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). It also says we are appointed to go through tribulation (1Th 3:3-4). The cross brings power (1Cor 1:18 ). I am exceedingly joyful in tribulation (2Cor 7:4). The disciples were happy to be beaten for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:40-42). If they beat Jesus and crucified him, what would they do to the Church? (See Luk 23:31). The Bible says that in this world we shall have tribulation (John 16:33).
    17. The Bible calls it the day of Christ when the bride of Jesus (the Church) is presented to him blameless and spotless (1Th 3:13; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 2Th 2:1-3; 2Cor 1:14; 1Th 2:19; 1Th 5:23). But 2Th 2:1-3 states that day of Christ will not come until FIRST, there be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed. The falling away has to happen first, then the Antichrist has to be revealed, and then, after the antichrist is revealed, then comes our gathering together with him (the rapture), the day of Christ.
    18. In the parables of Matthew 13, there is a prophetic order showing the history of the Church from beginning to end. It starts with the sower and it ends at the second coming (harvest time). Israel represents the treasure that was hidden and then found in 1948 (Exo 19:5; Psalm 135:4). After that one comes the pearl (a pearl is created when a grain of sand irritates the oyster and that speaks of tribulation). After the pearl, comes the net, the end of the world.
    19. The Church is refined, made blames and spotless, perfect, through affliction and tribulation, just like Jesus (Heb 2:10; Daniel 11:35; Isa 48:10; 1Pet 4:1; 1Pet 5:10).
    20. The greatest revival in history will take place during the GT (Rev 7:14). It does not make sense to see that happen when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
    21. The specialty of the HS is to comfort God’s people that are going through tribulation (2Cor 1:4). It does not make sense for God to take the Comforter out of the way, to leave and forsake his people (those that died for him during the GT as shown in Rev 7:14) when we need him the most.
    22. The blessed hope that Christians look for in Titus 2:13 is eternal life (Tit 1:2; Tit 3:7) which will come after the GT (we are still mortals, eternal life will arrive in the world to come, Mat 10:30).
    23. Christians do not look for a rapture before the GT, we look for the coming of the Lord at the end of the GT (2Pet 3:12).
    24. The Bible says that God can not lie. But it just so happens, that God said that, when He declared that the blessed hope is eternal life (Tit 1:2).
    25. When Jesus comes back in the clouds for us (the Church), the Bible says that every eye shall see him (Rev 1:7).
    26. The reason why God send plagues to Egypt was to show he is so powerful, that he can pour plagues on the wicked while sparing his elect, without having to remove his elect from the planet (Exo 11:7). Jesus is against a doctrine that states that God has to remove his elect to protect his people from his own plagues (John 17:15). We need to pray like Jesus.
    27. When God promised to KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10; the GT), he did not mean removing us from the planet (John 17:15).
    28. Parallels: 7th seal = 7th trumpet = 7th vial (they all come with thunders, lightning, voices, a great earthquake and great hail which are the signs of God coming down to earth as shown in Exo 19:16-19).
    29. Parallels 6th seal happens at the end of the 6th trumpet = 6th vial. Note: the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial deal with the Euphrates river and Armageddon, which ends at the 6th seal (Rev 9:13-19; Rev 16:12-16). See also Zep 3:8; Zec 12:3-4, and Luke 21:20-25. It is in the midst of the 6th vial that Jesus said that he will come as a thief (Rev 16:15).
    30. The Bible says that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the GT (Rev 6:9-11).
    31. The Bible is blatantly clear when it states that the Jews are part of the one body of Christ, the Church (1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:14-19; Eph 3:4-6; Col 3:11; 1Cor 10:1-4; Act 13:26; Rom 1:16; Rom 3:1-9,24-30; Rom 4:16; Rom chapters 9,10 & 11; Rom 12:1-5). Concerning the truth that the Jews are part of the church, the Bible says: “Let God be true and everyman a liar” (Rom 3:1-4).
    32. Everywhere in Scriptures that God shows the rapture, it is shown after the 6th seal or at the day of wrath (Psalm 18; Isa 13; 1Th 3:13; 1Cor 15:52; 2Th 1:6-8; Mat 24:21-31; Rev 14:14-15)

    What you will not find in Scriptures… There are no verses that state:

    1. That Daniel’s 70th week is what triggers God’s wrath.
    2. That the first 5 seals or the first 6 trumpets are part of God’s wrath.
    3. That there will be an invisible coming of Jesus Christ.
    4. That Abraham, Jacob, David, Moses, Joshua and Noah are not part of the body of Christ (the Church).
    5. That the Holy Spirit is the one that is the restrainer of 2The 2:1-12.
    6. That there is a rapture before the great tribulation or before the first seal.
    7. That there will be a rapture before the 6th seal or before the 7th trumpet.
    8. That all the seals, trumpets and vials will occur within a period of 7 years.
    9. That God is more interested in comforting the flesh than building the character of the Church.

    Shalom

  3. #3
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Good to see you Punchy!
    On pre-trib or post-trib, I am not learned enough on the subject to form an opinion. I can certainly say that the Christian church is already being persecuted throughout the world and that persecution will certainly increase. I have not yet seen the antichrist, though the spirit of antichrist has been at work for quite a long time.
    Psalm 19:14
    Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.



  4. #4
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Why would the Lord harpazo the church if He is here on the earth? The church is not appointed to wrath. 1 Thes 5:9

    At the end of the tribulation Christ establishes His millenial kingdom on the earth. The enemies of Israel are defeated and Christ rules on the earth from Jerusalem.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger

  5. #5

    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    pre-trib. Many reasons why but here is one of them I put on another post:

    If you also notice in Revelation and in chapter 1 verse 19 it gives us an outline of the entire book. The book is separated into 3 sections:
    1) which you have seen
    2) which are
    3) which will take place after this (meta tauta)

    Revelation 4:1 is the beginning of the 3rd section of the book "AFTER THESE THINGS"... meta tauta
    "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." - Rev 4:1

    So I believe Revelation 4:1 is the point of the rapture "COME UP HERE". The Lord will descend with a SHOUT "COME UP HERE" and His voice is as a trumpet... hence the trumpet as told in 1Thes4 and 1Cor15.

    The "AFTER THESE THINGS" is after the Church period (chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation).
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

  6. #6

    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Why would the Lord harpazo the church if He is here on the earth? The church is not appointed to wrath. 1 Thes 5:9

    At the end of the tribulation Christ establishes His millenial kingdom on the earth. The enemies of Israel are defeated and Christ rules on the earth from Jerusalem.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Correct. Also, when you read Luke 12:35-36 it shows Christ returning from the wedding:
    "Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately."

    You see in the verses I quoted above in order for the master to return from the wedding there must of been a bride. The Church is the bride. When the master returns at the Second Comming the Church/Bride (clothed in fine linen) will return with Him... as Luke 12 states.
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

  7. #7
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Below is a list I came up a year or so ago with giving 25 reasons I believe the rapture will occur after the Great Tribulation. You’ll notice that I don’t say much about the opposing positions and why I disagree with them -- otherwise, my list could easily be twice as long! Instead, what I focus on are the scriptures (NKJV) that I believe speak to the rapture issue, and then I explain why I believe they point to a post-tribulation event.

    25 REASONS THE RAPTURE WILL BE POST-TRIBULATIONAL
    A. About the Rapture Itself


    1. The same terminology is used for both Christ’s coming for His Church and His glorious appearing to defeat the Antichrist and establish His Kingdom here on earth. The Greek terms that are commonly used include “parousia” (coming), “epiphaneia” (appearing), and “apokalupsis” (revelation). This implies that concerning the rapture vs. the second coming, the two events are not entirely distinct, but that the rapture is actually part of the second coming, along with the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the Christ’s victory over the Antichrist and his forces at Armageddon, and the establishment of Christ’s Millennial Kingdom on earth.

    2. Just when does this “parousia” occur? Well, the apostles asked Christ that very question in Matt. 24:3, which reads:
    Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming [parousia], and of the end of the age?”
    Christ tells them what must happen in the days to leading up to His “parousia”, but eventually He tells them that immediately following the Tribulation, cosmic signs would appear, and then the events of Matt. 24:30-31, which reads:
    30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    This is what the apostles were to expect, and seeing how the apostles were the original church members (of which we are now a part), this should be our expectation, as well!

    3. Note the words of Jesus before He ascended into heaven (Matt. 28:19-20):
    "19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
    At this point, His disciples were to go into the Gentile world and teach the people all the commands of Christ. This includes the commands He gives in Matt. 24 concerning all the things leading up to His return.

    4. Luke 21 tells us what life will be like here on earth at the moment Christ returns:
    34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
    We are to stay away from such worldly desires which will become all too prevalent during the Great Tribulation!

    5. In Acts 1, we read:
    9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.
    This, of course, is speaking of the second coming, which we as Christians will witness firsthand. It is at that time we will be caught up to meet Him in the air!

    6. In 1 Cor. 1, we are told to wait for the revelation of Christ:
    4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, 5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Again, the revelation of Christ is what we long for!

    7. We are told in 1 Cor. 15 that the rapture will happen at the last trumpet:
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    Since this is the last trumpet (meaning none will follow), this can be none other than the seventh trumpet of Revelation, which occurs toward the end (if not at the very end) of the Great Tribulation.

    8. In 1 Thess. 3, we read:
    13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
    This implies that our judgment (i.e., His finding our hearts to be blameless) won’t take place until the coming of Christ with His saints occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation.

    9. In 1 Thess. 4, we learn that the rapture occurs at the parousia of Christ:
    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming [parousia] of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
    This is the one end-time parousia of Christ: occurring just after the Great Tribulation has run its course!

    10. At the glorious appearing of Christ, 2 Thess. 1 promises relief for Christians:
    7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    So it is the Great Tribulation we are promised relief from…but only after we find ourselves in it to begin with!

    11. 2 Thess. 2 tells us what must happen before Christ returns and we are caught up to meet Him:
    1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    This passage, BTW, was the one that sealed the deal for me as I was still considering the various rapture viewpoints.

    12. In 2 Tim. 4, we read about our day of judgment:
    1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
    This must mean that the Bema seat judgment happens after Christ returns to earth, and not at some other time or place.

    13. Our blessed hope (and its context) is mentioned in Titus 2:
    11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
    14. In 1 Pet. 1, we read:
    6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
    Like the 2 Tim. 4 passage, this shows that our judgment occurs at the revelation of Christ, and not sooner.
    15. The rapture is imminent! Yes, you heard me right: the rapture is imminent…but then, so are all the other events leading up to (and including) Christ’s second coming! In Rev. 1, we read:
    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
    Thus, we must adopt a sense of vigilance…it may all happen on our watch!

    16. All of the saints mentioned in Rev. 20:4 will be resurrected at the same time, i.e., the first resurrection. And when does this first resurrection take place? According to Rev. 20:4, it must occur at the end of the Tribulation since we read that it includes those who refused to worship the beast, and as a result were beheaded:
    And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    But also notice in 1 Thess. 4 that those who are caught up to meet Christ in the air won’t do so until the first resurrection has occurred!


    B. About the Great Tribulation

    17. We read in Mark 8 what life will be like for Christians living here on earth just before the second coming of Christ:
    34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
    Christians will still be here on earth right up until Christ’s second coming.

    18. In John 17:15, we read:
    I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
    So Christ is praying that His followers will be kept from (“tereo ek“ in Greek) the evil one while they stay here on earth rather than being taken out of (“airo ek“) the world, regardless how “great” the tribulation may become!

    19. An important thing to remember is, we as Christians are appointed to tribulation (Rom. 5:3) but not to wrath (Rom. 5:9). Tribulation (which comes from the Greek term “thlipsis”) and wrath (which comes from either the Greek term “thumos” or “orge”) should never be used interchangeably since they apply to different concepts! We must remember that God’s wrath is reserved for only those who have rejected Christ (most notably those who receive the Mark of the Beast) and does not apply to the Christians (who refuse the Mark of the Beast) living during that time.

    20. In Revelation, we see a number of passages that show there will be innumerable Christians on earth during the Great Tribulation: Rev. 7:9-17; 12:11,17; 13:7; 14:12-13. That must mean that the resurrection/rapture (which affects all Christians) has not yet occurred!

    21. The Church at Smyrna is told in Rev. 2:10
    Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
    Keep in mind that nothing negative was said about this church, yet they are told to expect some of the tribulation as described later in Revelation. The same would likely apply to some churches today.

    22. The Church at Thyatira (which struggled with spiritual fornication, not unlike some of today‘s churches) is told in Rev. 2:
    21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
    But there is still hope as this same church is later told:
    26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
    27 ‘ He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
    They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
    So it is through times of tribulation (the Great Tribulation being the prime example) that many Christians will be overcomers and will receive their just rewards!

    23. The Church at Philadelphia is promised they will not endure the Great Tribulation as stated in Rev. 3:10
    “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”
    But is this a rapture promise for this select group of Christians (notice that none of the other six churches are given this promise), or is it God’s promise of His divine protection for them while they remain here on earth? One could argue it either way since we are not told here. In any event, this is not a promise of a rapture for all Christians before the second coming of Christ.

    24. As for those Christians who are seen on earth during the Tribulation, many will be martyred but a few will survive. If the rapture isn‘t post-tribulational, then when do these surviving Christians receive their immortal bodies? Or do they?

    25. At the end of Revelation we read:
    20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
    And yes, this includes Tribulation Christians. Remember that we might be the ones who will turn out to be among them! Question is: can we handle it? With God’s help, we can!

    And we will!!
    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
    -- Job 19:25

  8. #8
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Why would the Lord harpazo the church if He is here on the earth?
    Because there will be Jesus' Elect living all around the uttermost parts of the Earth when He returns to gather them to Himself. (Mark 13:27)

    There not riding buses and trains to meet Jesus, they're flying to meet Him through the air as He descends from Heaven.....from all around the globe!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    The church is not appointed to wrath. 1 Thes 5:9
    Of course not. God's wrath has never been aimed and targeted at believers; even when God has poured His wrath out upon the wicked while believers are within their midsts.

    God's aim is perfect, and His ability to preserve His children is also perfect!


    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    At the end of the tribulation Christ establishes His millenial kingdom on the earth. The enemies of Israel are defeated and Christ rules on the earth from Jerusalem.
    When Christ returns, He establishes His eternal kingdom; it has no end. And the enemies that are destroyed aren't the enemies of Israel; they are the enemies of Christ. He is the focus of His own return, not countries or racial groups or governmental boundaries.

    When Christ returns, He severs the wicked from among the just, and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ wherein dwelleth righteousness. The bondage of the curse of sin is removed. Behold I make all things new, when He the tabernacle returns to be with us!

  9. #9

    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Because there will be Jesus' Elect living all around the uttermost parts of the Earth when He returns to gather them to Himself. (Mark 13:27)

    There not riding buses and trains to meet Jesus, they're flying to meet Him through the air as He descends from Heaven.....from all around the globe!!!
    This is false. They are arrayed in "fine linen, clean and bright" in heaven. You say this don't happen until the Second Coming as Christ is returning from Heaven. You say we are arrayed in "fine linen" in the air at the Second Coming as Christ comes back to the earth.... Revelation 19 says it happens in heaven.
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

  10. #10
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Quote Originally Posted by thedee View Post
    This is false. They are arrayed in "fine linen, clean and bright" in heaven. You say this don't happen until the Second Coming as Christ is returning from Heaven. You say we are arrayed in "fine linen" in the air at the Second Coming as Christ comes back to the earth.... Revelation 19 says it happens in heaven.
    Yes to all of those points. No conflict.

    When Christ appears, we shall be like Him. Those from the earth are gathered as Matthew 24, Mark 13, and I THess 4 tell us; but also those who have already died and are in heaven are also brought with Him...we all meet as one big happly family in the middle somewhere, as He descends from Heaven(the right hand of the Father). And so shall we always be with the Lord.

    Acts 3:20 "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things"

    Mark 13 also tells us Christians (Jesus' chosen elect ones) are gathered from the uttermost part of the Earth to Heaven.

    Heaven could be the air, outer space, or God's throneroom where the streets of Gold reside....the word Heaven is used to denote either of those three locations; pretty much any place that is above the ground of the earth.

    Here are the scriptures of how it will go down...all perfectly harmonizing one with another. I'll leave my comments out of them, and let them speak using their own words.

    Paul taught in 1 Corinthians "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his (LATIN: ADVENT) coming. Then cometh the end"

    Paul taught in I Thessalonians "what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his (LATIN: ADVENT) coming? "

    Paul taught in I Thessalonians "the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the (LATIN: ADVENT) coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the (LATIN: ADVENT) coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him"

    Jesus said in Matthew, "Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (LATIN: ADVENT) coming of the Son of man be. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    Jesus said in Mark, "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. "

    Jesus said again in Matthew, "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him...the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. "

    John taught in I John, "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his (LATIN: ADVENT) coming."

    Paul taught in I Corinthians "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the (LATIN: REVELATION) coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"

    Peter taught in I Peter "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the (LATIN:REVELATION) appearing of Jesus Christ "

    John taught in Revelation "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"

    John taught in Revelation "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished; And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

    John taught in Revelation "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage"

    John taught in Revelation "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."








  11. #11

    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    The first part of Revelation was written for John's day. Chapter 4 is noted as "after".
    Chapter 4 was therefore not a part of John's day (lifetime). Chapter 4 is for the time near the end days. Note that in Rev. 19 before the marriage of the Lamb can begin - we need to first see vengeance from God on the city of the (mystery, Babylon). This too shows the great tribulation ends before Jesus comes back. Jesus is coming at the time of salvation. Rev. 12 shows that means the last martyr for Jesus Christ will die first. See Hebrews 9:28.

    "So Christ...shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
    Hebrews 9:28
    KJV

    1 John 2:28
    "...when he shall appear, we may have confidence...at his coming."

    1 Peter 1:9
    "...the end of your faith...the salvation of your souls."
    time of the end of having faith
    people won't become Christians after this point











    '

  12. #12

    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Rev. 20 is not when the saints are changed into their righteousness outfits - they come that way down from heaven - in chapter 19 - as armies. Then only one army heads to fight at the battle against the beast. The other already changed - came down from heaven army - is made up of trib martyrs, and thus already had victory over the beast.

    Rev. 20 is just where John is watching saints take their seats.
    as in - he saw the saints from the first resurrection

    The rapture will be when the 7th trumpet sounds - during the 6th seal.
    The 7th seal seems to link to the prophecy of Isa. 18 as to after the harvest - God will take His rest.
    Isa. 62 also shows that Jerusalem must be freed before God will keep silence.

    Consider that the four beasts rest not - as to they say a certain phrase. Check Rev. 4 - then consider --that this means Jesus must soon return if they go silent.
    Rev. 8 - begins as to getting soon to a part as to silence in heaven.

  13. #13

    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Post-amillennial rapture.

  14. #14
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Response to the OP:

    There would be no purpose for a post-tribulation "rapture"

    The purpose of the Lord's "harpazo" action is to keep any living believers from His coming wrath and judgment [1thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10]

    His wrath will be over at the end of the tribulation of those days [Matthew 24:29-31]

    A resurrection ["rapture"] after the tribulation of those days would not keep any one from His wrath .... it will all be finished

    The gatherings after the tribulation will be of the mortal survivors of the tribulation and not a resurrection of any, first of Israel [Isaiah 11:11;12; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31], and then of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46]

    Those gathered and found believing will enter and populate [reproduce in] His millennial kingdom on the earth

    If the "rapture" of all believers occurs at the end of the tribulation period, there will be no mortal believers to enter the kingdom on the earth .... but there will be

    The idea of a post-tribulation resurrection ["rapture"] is one of the great flaws in post-tribulation teaching
    Stephen

    2Peter
    1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts

  15. #15
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    Re: Pre-Trib or Post-Trib Rapture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1 View Post
    Response to the OP:

    There would be no purpose for a post-tribulation "rapture"

    The purpose of the Lord's "harpazo" action is to keep any living believers from His coming wrath and judgment [1thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10]

    His wrath will be over at the end of the tribulation of those days [Matthew 24:29-31]

    A resurrection ["rapture"] after the tribulation of those days would not keep any one from His wrath .... it will all be finished
    That is, only if you believe that none of God’s wrath will be poured immediately following the Tribulation. Fact is, it will be... lots of it! But if relevance is the issue here, one could just as easily ask what the purpose would be of a pre-trib rapture! If you believe that there will be many who give their life to Christ after a pre-trib rapture (and all pre-tribbers I know do believe this) , then what purpose does the rapture serve in the first place, if all you’re doing is replacing one group of Christians with another for seven-plus years. IOW, you’re right back where you started, with the worldwide body of Christians awaiting the parousia of Christ!

    The gatherings after the tribulation will be of the mortal survivors of the tribulation and not a resurrection of any, first of Israel [Isaiah 11:11;12; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31], and then of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46]

    Those gathered and found believing will enter and populate [reproduce in] His millennial kingdom on the earth

    If the "rapture" of all believers occurs at the end of the tribulation period, there will be no mortal believers to enter the kingdom on the earth .... but there will be

    The idea of a post-tribulation resurrection ["rapture"] is one of the great flaws in post-tribulation teaching
    This sounds a lot like a Hal Lindsey argument I once heard! Actually, this question at first presents a problem for pre-tribbers and post-tribbers alike! That is, if all people living during the Great Tribulation either, a) refuse the MOTB and are beheaded by the AC or b) accept the MOTB and are killed by the wrath of God during the DOTL judgments, then at the end of the GT, who’s left???

    Actually, there is an answer to that question, but interestingly, what you’ll find is that the answer to that question is exactly the same as the answer to the question you’re asking of post-tribbers! Think about it!
    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth.
    -- Job 19:25

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