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Thread: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

  1. #31

    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    First off, if they never died how can they be in heaven? and secondly with what body would they retain?
    The Bible tells us that they are with God and that they did not die. They have been translated physically to glory, and they will return as the men they are. It is appointed to us to die once, as scripture teaches.

    So we are to believe these two born of the earth and sinful some how shed their bodies without dying and go to heaven and stand by God until they are sent back down into their bodies and die
    They never shed their bodies. They were translated.

    Rather, the seven candlesticks were from the foundation of the world and the two olive trees standing before God did not just appear when Elijiah and Elisha were taken up to heaven but they too were from the beginning.
    Revelation 11:4
    These two prophets are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of all the earth.

    These two prophets are not connected to the seven candlesticks, which represent churches.

    Again the two olive trees did not just start standing before God upon the taking up of these two prophets.
    What proof do you have of that?

  2. #32

    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    The Bible tells us that they are with God and that they did not die. They have been translated physically to glory, and they will return as the men they are. It is appointed to us to die once, as scripture teaches.



    They never shed their bodies. They were translated.



    Revelation 11:4
    These two prophets are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of all the earth.

    These two prophets are not connected to the seven candlesticks, which represent churches.



    What proof do you have of that?
    I would say of all the above...

    Show me the scriptures.

  3. #33

    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    I would say of all the above...

    Show me the scriptures.
    We are using the same Word of God. You have a different mindset and interpretation. I cannot change your mind...only Holy Spirit can do that.

  4. #34

    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    We are using the same Word of God. You have a different mindset and interpretation. I cannot change your mind...only Holy Spirit can do that.
    Help me out then and show me the scriptures.

  5. #35
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    To all on this tread;

    Someone gave a right answer on 1 or 2. Nice Job. It was members of the body of Christ living at a particular time. And they all have passed away but are now in heaven. Of coarse that is if they were faithful. Their remaining members are still carring on the work but no longer in sackcloth which was for a relatively short time.


    Peace

  6. #36

    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperaux View Post
    What a ridiculous notion! Why does anyone set one's cap to finding two people who don't arrive on the scene until well after the redeemed have been absent from the planet, and Tribulation has taken hold?

    It's foolishness.
    If....... a then fifteen year old Israel had a genuine visitation with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus during his brush with death in September of 2015 then.........
    one variation of the War of Gog and Magog may wrap up from 2015 - 2022?!

    If so.... then there should be one version of the two witnesses somewhere????

    I personally am now open to the idea that a relatively Great Tribulation with Two Witnesses.... and a War of Gog and Magog.. .may have more than one fulfillment if Ezekiel chapter 37 is fulfilled again and again and again and again.... as G-d recreates the world as it once was..... .in various points in time in our history.... and then spins off new time lines each of which fulfill Ezekiel 37.

    Modern Theoretical Physicists have came up with something that they term Multiverse Theory and I suspect it could fit perfectly with Ezekiel 37????

  7. #37
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    We know the two witnesses will be two literal flesh men on earth, in Jerusalem, but not their identities yet.

    The way we know they will be two flesh men is because Rev.11 says they will be killed and their bodies not buried, but left laying open in the street.

    The Biblical pattern of history that matches them is Moses and Aaron during the time of God leading the children of Israel out of Egypt. When the three and one half days are complete with their dead bodies, they are resurrected to Heaven which symbolically will represent God's deliverance of Israel out of Egypt.

    At the end of Rev.12, we are also shown a similar idea, using the flood of Noah's time. The symbolic flood of waters that come out of the mouth of the serpent is swallowed up by the earth, similar to the flood of Noah's day being swallowed up to rest the ark. In 1 Cor.5:7, Apostle Paul said Jesus is "our passover is sacrificed for us." The passover in OT times was a mark of God's protection upon the door posts of the children of Israel so the death angel would pass over them when God sent destruction upon the Egyptians of that time.

    Rev.11:1-2 shows the existence of a Jewish temple for the end, those who worship inside it, and the Gentiles treading the city (Jerusalem) for 42 months. Rev.11:8 shows those events are set to happen in Jerusalem.

    Along with the two witnesses, two candlesticks are mentioned. Per the last verse of Rev.1, the seven candlesticks John saw in Heaven represent the seven Churches. Thus two Churches are represented making a stand along with God's two witnesses.

  8. #38
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DavePeace View Post
    We know the two witnesses will be two literal flesh men on earth, in Jerusalem, but not their identities yet.

    The way we know they will be two flesh men is because Rev.11 says they will be killed and their bodies not buried, but left laying open in the street.

    The Biblical pattern of history that matches them is Moses and Aaron during the time of God leading the children of Israel out of Egypt. When the three and one half days are complete with their dead bodies, they are resurrected to Heaven which symbolically will represent God's deliverance of Israel out of Egypt.

    At the end of Rev.12, we are also shown a similar idea, using the flood of Noah's time. The symbolic flood of waters that come out of the mouth of the serpent is swallowed up by the earth, similar to the flood of Noah's day being swallowed up to rest the ark. In 1 Cor.5:7, Apostle Paul said Jesus is "our passover is sacrificed for us." The passover in OT times was a mark of God's protection upon the door posts of the children of Israel so the death angel would pass over them when God sent destruction upon the Egyptians of that time.

    Rev.11:1-2 shows the existence of a Jewish temple for the end, those who worship inside it, and the Gentiles treading the city (Jerusalem) for 42 months. Rev.11:8 shows those events are set to happen in Jerusalem.

    Along with the two witnesses, two candlesticks are mentioned. Per the last verse of Rev.1, the seven candlesticks John saw in Heaven represent the seven Churches. Thus two Churches are represented making a stand along with God's two witnesses.
    As you point out the candlesticks are churches. Yet you say there are two candlesticks and also two witnesses. The text doesn't agree with you, because it says the two candlesticks ARE the two witnesses.
    ""I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” they are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands,""

    Candlesticks/ lampstands are churches as you say. The two witnesses are candlesticks as per v3/4 Therefore the two witnesses are two churches

  9. #39
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    As you point out the candlesticks are churches. Yet you say there are two candlesticks and also two witnesses. The text doesn't agree with you, because it says the two candlesticks ARE the two witnesses.
    ""I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” they are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands,""

    Candlesticks/ lampstands are churches as you say. The two witnesses are candlesticks as per v3/4 Therefore the two witnesses are two churches
    I agree that the TWO witnesses ARE the TWO lampstands.
    However it is ERRONEOUS to claim that the 2 candlesticks MUST be churches like Ephesus or Philadelphia, or is ONLY a church.
    What we are told is that these TWO individuals REPRESENT TWO things.
    First as an olive tree and secondly as a lampstand.

    Just as the 7 heads represent a mountain AND a king, so these two are also a representation of more - which is why they are described in multiple ways.
    We mustn't try limiting them to one thing, but recognise they are described as symbolic of more than that.
    So just as a head can be BOTH king and mountain, so these TWO can be BOTH individual and corporate.
    Zech 4 also speaks of these:
    Zec 4:1* And the angel who talked with me came again and woke me, like a man who is awakened out of his sleep.*
    Zec 4:2* And he said to me, “What do you see?” I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it.*
    Zec 4:3* And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”*

    Zec 4:11* Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”*
    Zec 4:12* And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?”*
    Zec 4:13* He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.”*
    Zec 4:14* Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”*

    The lampstand is actually indicative of the Holy Spirit, which is God at work within. We see this in the OT imagery and that the lampstand has 7 cups / 7 lamps.

  10. #40
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree that the TWO witnesses ARE the TWO lampstands.
    However it is ERRONEOUS to claim that the 2 candlesticks MUST be churches like Ephesus or Philadelphia, or is ONLY a church.
    What we are told is that these TWO individuals REPRESENT TWO things.
    First as an olive tree and secondly as a lampstand.

    Just as the 7 heads represent a mountain AND a king, so these two are also a representation of more - which is why they are described in multiple ways.
    We mustn't try limiting them to one thing, but recognise they are described as symbolic of more than that.
    So just as a head can be BOTH king and mountain, so these TWO can be BOTH individual and corporate.
    Zech 4 also speaks of these:
    Zec 4:1* And the angel who talked with me came again and woke me, like a man who is awakened out of his sleep.*
    Zec 4:2* And he said to me, “What do you see?” I said, “I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it.*
    Zec 4:3* And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”*

    Zec 4:11* Then I said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”*
    Zec 4:12* And a second time I answered and said to him, “What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil is poured out?”*
    Zec 4:13* He said to me, “Do you not know what these are?” I said, “No, my lord.”*
    Zec 4:14* Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”*

    The lampstand is actually indicative of the Holy Spirit, which is God at work within. We see this in the OT imagery and that the lampstand has 7 cups / 7 lamps.
    I will keep what you are saying in mind when I watch what the two prophetic churches are doing in Jerusalem during that time 😎

  11. #41
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I will keep what you are saying in mind when I watch what the two prophetic churches are doing in Jerusalem during that time ��

    If you are looking for two prophetic churches then I am afraid you need to be cerattn you know what you are looking for.
    Notice that in revelation each lampstand is in each city. One per city. Jerusalem therefore would have one lampstand based on the same criteria as used.
    However Heb 9:2 has just a single lampstand as does Zech 4.
    What are olive trees? Are they churches?
    If not then you will be missing what else these individuals represent.
    You confuse what they represent with what they are.
    A king is also the representative of the kingdom, but he is NOT the entire kingdom.

    The two individuals represent certain things, but they are NOT the entirety of that thing.

  12. #42
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    They are the two heads of two churches (candlesticks).

    The two heads or leaders of the churches are the 7 angels. Thus two of them are the two witnesses.

    Who have been witnessing all thru the OT? Michael and Gabriel. They stand before God.

    Yes they die. They appear unto the world as fleshly men (AKA Sodom, note were probably them) there flesh dies but are risen only after 3 days...ummm interesting.

  13. #43
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    If you are looking for two prophetic churches then I am afraid you need to be cerattn you know what you are looking for.
    Notice that in revelation each lampstand is in each city. One per city. Jerusalem therefore would have one lampstand based on the same criteria as used.
    However Heb 9:2 has just a single lampstand as does Zech 4.
    What are olive trees? Are they churches?
    If not then you will be missing what else these individuals represent.
    You confuse what they represent with what they are.
    A king is also the representative of the kingdom, but he is NOT the entire kingdom.

    The two individuals represent certain things, but they are NOT the entirety of that thing.
    Look there are uncertainties, but trees normally relate to countries. Olive tree normally associated with Israel. Two olive trees therefore the Jewish of Jerusalem and those with the inheritance of Israel (the Gentile church of Jerusalem) or quite simply Judah and Israel.

    Remember too that Jerusalem has Gentile sections, so it is no normal Jewish city with one church body.

  14. #44
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Look there are uncertainties, but trees normally relate to countries. Olive tree normally associated with Israel. Two olive trees therefore the Jewish of Jerusalem and those with the inheritance of Israel (the Gentile church of Jerusalem) or quite simply Judah and Israel.

    Remember too that Jerusalem has Gentile sections, so it is no normal Jewish city with one church body.
    I think you are missing the point.
    Zech 4 has two individuals who are called these two things. We have Revelation speak of two individuals who are called these two things.
    They are of course Christians and they are representative of more than being two people. Just as a king is a person but also represents a kingdom.

  15. #45
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    As you point out the candlesticks are churches. Yet you say there are two candlesticks and also two witnesses. The text doesn't agree with you, because it says the two candlesticks ARE the two witnesses.
    ""I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” they are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands,""

    Candlesticks/ lampstands are churches as you say. The two witnesses are candlesticks as per v3/4 Therefore the two witnesses are two churches
    Actually the context does agree with me, because if the candlestick symbol represents the Churches like Jesus said in Rev.1, then that's an anchor we cannot change in Revelation. In Revelation, the candlesticks must always represent the Churches He gave seven Messages to.

    And since He gave such detail about the two witnesses being killed, and their dead bodies left laying in a plaza (Greek for the word "street") of Jerusalem, such literal descriptions makes it clear that is to happen literally, and is not just a symbol. Nor would it make sense to say two Churches prophesy in Jerusalem are all... killed with their dead bodies laying in the street.

    Thus the meaning has to be two literal flesh men witnesses, and... two Church types that can be anywhere in the world giving witness. And lo and behold, what did Jesus show with the signs of the end in His Olivet discourse about some of His elect being delivered up to synagogues and councils to give a Testimony against them?

    Mark 13:9-13
    9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
    10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
    11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
    12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
    13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    KJV



    Notice the idea of The Gospel must first be published among all nations falls in between that prophecy of His elect being delivered up to give a Witness. That is traditionally understood to mean The Gospel being literally published in print, and preached by Christ's ambassadors to the nations, which essentially, is still going on today. But in the Greek, the word for "publish" simply means 'to herald', like a town crier. It goes with those delivered up to give a Testimony by The Holy Spirit at the end of this world.

    Some of Christ's elect being delivered up at the end of this world to speak what The Holy Spirit gives them is essentially what the mission of the two witnesses in Rev.11 is. The difference is that those in Mark.13 represent the two candlesticks idea. They are the two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia, the only two Churches Jesus was not angry with. They represent the symbolic candlesticks in Heaven for His very elect that will not be deceived at the end of this world by the coming false Messiah.

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