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Thread: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

  1. #46
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I think you are missing the point.
    Zech 4 has two individuals who are called these two things. We have Revelation speak of two individuals who are called these two things.
    They are of course Christians and they are representative of more than being two people. Just as a king is a person but also represents a kingdom.
    I don't see two individuals necessarily called those things in Zechariah 4. Sure Zerubbabel and Joshua had commendable roles in the rebuilding of Jerusalem, but the two olive trees could be referring to Judah and Israel.

  2. #47
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I don't see two individuals necessarily called those things in Zechariah 4. Sure Zerubbabel and Joshua had commendable roles in the rebuilding of Jerusalem, but the two olive trees could be referring to Judah and Israel.
    Still missing the point.
    An individual can represent and be representative of a group, but a group does not and is not representative of an individual.
    Two individuals in Zech 4, two individuals in Rev 11.
    Those two may well represent Jews and Gentiles or Jews and Christians or some other group, but they are NOT the entirety of those groups.

  3. #48
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Still missing the point.
    An individual can represent and be representative of a group, but a group does not and is not representative of an individual.
    Two individuals in Zech 4, two individuals in Rev 11.
    Those two may well represent Jews and Gentiles or Jews and Christians or some other group, but they are NOT the entirety of those groups.
    You miss my point. Where are the two olive trees two individuals in Zech 4? It's just one possibility, but the text is not clear on your assumption. I don't see what you so confidently claim in Zechariah 4.

  4. #49
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You miss my point. Where are the two olive trees two individuals in Zech 4? It's just one possibility, but the text is not clear on your assumption. I don't see what you so confidently claim in Zechariah 4.
    There are CLEARLY two individuals.
    Where is an entire people?
    Not there.
    So I got your point and highlighted you aren't getting how symbols work.
    A symbol is a substitute for a reality:
    Zec 4:7* Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!’”*

  5. #50
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There are CLEARLY two individuals.
    Where is an entire people?
    Not there.
    So I got your point and highlighted you aren't getting how symbols work.
    A symbol is a substitute for a reality:
    Zec 4:7* Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of ‘Grace, grace to it!’”*
    Kindly quote the verse where Zerubbabel is an olive tree?

    Or, kindly quote the verse where Zerubbabel is a candlestick?

  6. #51
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Kindly quote the verse where Zerubbabel is an olive tree?
    Or, kindly quote the verse where Zerubbabel is a candlestick?
    In Zech 4 the candlestick is not a person or a church:
    Zec 4:2* And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:*
    Zec 4:3* And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.*
    Zec 4:4* So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?*
    Zec 4:5* Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.*
    Zec 4:6* Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.*

    The candlestick here is the one on the altar - notice it is one stick yet with 7 lamps.
    The Olive trees are stated here:
    Zec 4:14* Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

  7. #52
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    In Zech 4 the candlestick is not a person or a church:
    Zec 4:2* And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:*
    Zec 4:3* And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.*
    Zec 4:4* So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?*
    Zec 4:5* Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.*
    Zec 4:6* Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.*

    The candlestick here is the one on the altar - notice it is one stick yet with 7 lamps.
    The Olive trees are stated here:
    Zec 4:14* Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
    Two anointed ones. Does the text say two anointed humans? Could this be Judah and Israel?

    In an earlier post you said "Zech 4 has two individuals who are called these two things" but I'm failing to see evidence of that in the verses you quote.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Two anointed ones. Does the text say two anointed humans? Could this be Judah and Israel?
    Nope. Anointed ones means two humans. Judah and Israel are NOT anointed, nor is a church anointed as a church.

    In an earlier post you said "Zech 4 has two individuals who are called these two things" but I'm failing to see evidence of that in the verses you quote.
    I did indeed say two individuals.
    And clearly we have this.
    What you are trying to claim is that an anointed one is somehow more than one person.

  9. #54
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope. Anointed ones means two humans. Judah and Israel are NOT anointed, nor is a church anointed as a church.


    I did indeed say two individuals.
    And clearly we have this.
    What you are trying to claim is that an anointed one is somehow more than one person.

    In Hebrew, the word "one" can apply to a people. The Greek word "ben" was often translated as "people".

    An anointed "ben" can be an anointed people.

  10. #55
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In Hebrew, the word "one" can apply to a people. The Greek word "ben" was often translated as "people".

    An anointed "ben" can be an anointed people.
    Please provide a scripture where two peoples are called anointed.
    Further how they stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.

  11. #56
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Please provide a scripture where two peoples are called anointed.
    Further how they stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.
    Gabriel stands before God.

    Luke 1
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Gabriel is an anointed one

    Zech 4:14
    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    The angel Gabriel represents a candlestick

    Rev 1
    20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


    Candlesticks represent the two witnesses.

    Rev 11
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    Gabriel and Michael are the two anointed, they stand before God, they represent two candlesticks, they come among men in the flesh and are the two witnesses.


    Just to add Gabriel is called a "man" in scriptures.

    Dan 9
    Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

  12. #57
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Gabriel stands before God.

    Luke 1
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Gabriel is an anointed one

    Zech 4:14
    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    The angel Gabriel represents a candlestick

    Rev 1
    20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


    Candlesticks represent the two witnesses.

    Rev 11
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


    Gabriel and Michael are the two anointed, they stand before God, they represent two candlesticks, they come among men in the flesh and are the two witnesses.
    Gabriel is NOT an anointed one. He is simply one amongst a myriad of angels who is in the throne room of God.

  13. #58
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Gabriel is NOT an anointed one. He is simply one amongst a myriad of angels who is in the throne room of God.
    Gabriel is not simply one of many angels.....

    Gabriel stands before God

    Luke 1
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    The two anointed ones stand before God

    Zech 4:14
    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    THUS Gabriel is an anointed one!!!

    Who has been the ones witnessing the entire OT? Gabriel and Michael!!!

    There are seven angels AND seven candlesticks. Michael and Gabriel are two of these angels. They are two of the seven Spirits upon the Lamb.

    Just to add Gabriel is called a "man" in scriptures.

    Dan 9
    Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.




    Can't make it any clearer. It's right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #59
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Gabriel is not simply one of many angels.....

    Gabriel stands before God

    Luke 1
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
    The two anointed ones stand before God
    Zech 4:14
    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
    THUS Gabriel is an anointed one!!!
    Who has been the ones witnessing the entire OT? Gabriel and Michael!!!
    There are seven angels AND seven candlesticks. Michael and Gabriel are two of these angels. They are two of the seven Spirits upon the Lamb.
    Just to add Gabriel is called a "man" in scriptures.
    Dan 9
    Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

    Can't make it any clearer. It's right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Nope Gabriel is simply one among many.
    He is not an anointed one. Show me an angel who is called anointed?

  15. #60
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope Gabriel is simply one among many.
    He is not an anointed one. Show me an angel who is called anointed?
    I have. Either you don't want to see or can't????

    The two anointed ones stand before God

    Zech 4:14
    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    Gabriel stands before God

    Luke 1
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Gabriel = anointed one

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