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Thread: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

  1. #76
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Why cannot the witnesses and the beast be concurrent?
    The following text gives an impression that the beast rises up after the 1260 and kills them.

    Perhaps these two are seen as the AC/false prophet to the world thus when the beasts kills them they think this is the 2nd coming and he is the true Christ????

    Rev 11
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

  2. #77
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The woman is taken to the wilderness WHERE she is protected. The 2W are NOT in the wilderness.
    Rev 11 shows them defeating EVERYONE who tries to harm them until the AC does so.


    Good. The logic is simple, a declaration is made, then the follow up happens.


    The final earthquake is presented as greater than any earthquake ever. Only 7,000 dying in a city of hundreds of thousands is NOT he greatest earthquake ever.
    Further the placing of the event is in connection with the 6th trumpet BEFORE the 7th trumpet is blown.
    So you have the earthquake occurring BEFORE the kingdoms of this world...

    Also you didn't address my point that Rev 11 states:
    Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, ôRise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
    Rev 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

    Notice the temple and altar - the Holy Place is NOT given over to the nations. So how does the AC place an AoD in that temple while it is NOT given over, while the 2W are there who can call down plagues and destroy people by fire?
    Even if he could place it then they could tear it down.
    There is no logic to the AC being able to rule for the 42 months whilst the 2W are in place in Jerusalem.
    However when the AC kills them this will demonstrate his power and allow him to declare himself god with no one to be able to gainsay him.
    Rev 11 does not state that the 2W have access to all parts of the city, to tear things down as they please. And just because Jews only have access to certain parts of the temple is not mutually exclusive to a Jewish antichrist coming to power there. Rev 13 does not state where the image of the beast is , so it is not a biblical requirement that the image itself sits in the temple, but even if it did, there is no biblical requirement that Gentiles have access to that image. And the earthquake is part of the wrath of God that we avoid on the DOTL, we get raptured for the wedding feast, then there is a great war and earthquake, then Jesus destroys the armies. 7000 in one city, and many in other cities all around the world, and every mountain and island removed. It will be the greatest ever earthquake, even though the entire populations does not die in every city.

    So I find not one of your arguments in the least compelling. You are building a case on weak foundations.

    So generally I do not regard your logic as compelling at all.

  3. #78
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Rev 11 does not state that the 2W have access to all parts of the city, to tear things down as they please. And just because Jews only have access to certain parts of the temple is not mutually exclusive to a Jewish antichrist coming to power there. Rev 13 does not state where the image of the beast is , so it is not a biblical requirement that the image itself sits in the temple, but even if it did, there is no biblical requirement that Gentiles have access to that image. And the earthquake is part of the wrath of God that we avoid on the DOTL, we get raptured for the wedding feast, then there is a great war and earthquake, then Jesus destroys the armies. 7000 in one city, and many in other cities all around the world, and every mountain and island removed. It will be the greatest ever earthquake, even though the entire populations does not die in every city.

    So I find not one of your arguments in the least compelling. You are building a case on weak foundations.

    So generally I do not regard your logic as compelling at all.
    Weird claims, we are told UNEQUIVOCALLY that the temple itself is NOT under Gentile control.
    The AC is not Jewish, and if he were he still wouldn't have access because of the 2W who are there.
    There is no requirement for the 2W to do anything outside of the temple, however they can call down ANY plague on any nation.
    Can the AC really declare himself god while these 2 are demonstrating he is not.

    Rev 13 is of course tied into Matt 24 and Dan 9:27 and 2 Thess 2. It is abundantly clear where the image will be placed.

    The earthquake may well be part of God's wrath, but this is NOT the DotL. The 7th trumpet is NOT YET blown and the DotL doesn't occur until AFTER that Trumpet is blown.
    You may argue immediately after and I argue for 42 months after, but either way this earthquake is a minor earthquake smaller than the one in Rev 6 and the one in rev 16. Notice no mention of anywhere else experience an earthquake.
    You are adding 2 + 6 and getting 3.

  4. #79
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Weird claims, we are told UNEQUIVOCALLY that the temple itself is NOT under Gentile control.
    The AC is not Jewish, and if he were he still wouldn't have access because of the 2W who are there.
    There is no requirement for the 2W to do anything outside of the temple, however they can call down ANY plague on any nation.
    Can the AC really declare himself god while these 2 are demonstrating he is not.

    Rev 13 is of course tied into Matt 24 and Dan 9:27 and 2 Thess 2. It is abundantly clear where the image will be placed.

    The earthquake may well be part of God's wrath, but this is NOT the DotL. The 7th trumpet is NOT YET blown and the DotL doesn't occur until AFTER that Trumpet is blown.
    You may argue immediately after and I argue for 42 months after, but either way this earthquake is a minor earthquake smaller than the one in Rev 6 and the one in rev 16. Notice no mention of anywhere else experience an earthquake.
    You are adding 2 + 6 and getting 3.
    You say: ""Can the AC really declare himself god while these 2 are demonstrating he is not."" Yes he can. Christians will dissent. This will not stop him.


    Your claims are weird.
    Assumption 1) You seem to imply that the 2W have complete control over the temple and are based there at the temple. They are based in Jerusalem, but your argument that they are based at the temple and control things that go on there has no biblical basis. They call down plagues and protect themselves, beyond that you are assuming things.
    Assumption 2) You assume the antichrist will not be accepted as Jewish and have access to the temple
    Assumption 3) You assume the antichrist coming to power and the image are the same thing. The image could be associated rather with the abomination which is 30 days apart. (1290 days abomination. 42 months beast)
    Assumption 4) You state that the 7th trumpet where Jesus takes over the kingdoms of the world , occurs before the DOTL. There is no logic to that:
    5 Then the seventh angel sounded [his trumpet]; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom (dominion, rule) of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ


    You are adding zero plus zero plus zero and trying to conclude a lot. Please can you show me that your views are not assumptions but are based on bible verses.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You say: ""Can the AC really declare himself god while these 2 are demonstrating he is not."" Yes he can. Christians will dissent. This will not stop him.
    No he can't. The temple is NOT available for him DURING the period of the 2W:
    Rev 11:1* And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.*
    Rev 11:2* But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.*

    Do you get the difference between INSIDE the temple and OUTSIDE?
    Outside is being trod underfoot, but inside is NOT. It is NOT desolate, but kept for the worshippers.
    This is a very different picture to when the temple is desolate.
    When it is desolate it has false worshippers and is given over to the Gentiles.
    You only need to read a bit about A4E to get this.

    Your claims are weird.
    Assumption 1) You seem to imply that the 2W have complete control over the temple and are based there at the temple. They are based in Jerusalem, but your argument that they are based at the temple and control things that go on there has no biblical basis. They call down plagues and protect themselves, beyond that you are assuming things.
    Rev 11:3* And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”*

    Here the statement is part of the whole statement about the temple. They are granted authority by God. Is the AC able to over power them? Nope, not UNTIL their testimony is over:
    Rev 11:7* And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,

    So DURING the 1260 days of their testimony THEY have the authority NOT the AC.
    Compared with later:
    Rev 13:5* And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

    So it is an assumption (as everything is), but is based on CLEAR scripture. The 2W have the authority for a time lasting 1260 days. When their time is over then the AC kills them and then he is allowed authority for 42 months.

    Assumption 2) You assume the antichrist will not be accepted as Jewish and have access to the temple
    Yes, this is also an OBVIOUS assumption.
    Who are the 2W? They are the 2 lampstands who have authority. Therefore they will NOT accept the AC nor allow him to have access.

    Assumption 3) You assume the antichrist coming to power and the image are the same thing. The image could be associated rather with the abomination which is 30 days apart. (1290 days abomination. 42 months beast)
    No, I don't assume they are the same thing.
    The AC is around BEFORE the 2W. According to 11:7 the AC rises from the pit, which places him coming after the 5th trumpet is blown.
    Also Dan 9:27 points to him making a covenant which lasts 7 years.
    However the AC only is allowed to exercise authority for 42 months (as per 13:5) which is when the GT starts.
    The AC kills the 2W and then proclaims himself as god, which means we have the break as prophesied in Dan 9:27 AND the fulfillment of 2 Thess 2:4 AND the image is placed which is then matching Matt 24:15 and Dan 9:27 and Rev 13:14
    By the way there is no 1290 days, that was fulfilled long ago. Nor is there a 1335 days.

    Assumption 4) You state that the 7th trumpet where Jesus takes over the kingdoms of the world , occurs before the DOTL. There is no logic to that:
    5 Then the seventh angel sounded [his trumpet]; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom (dominion, rule) of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ
    That is what the text states.
    Every time the trumpet is blown THEN the event happens. The event does NOT occur BEFORE the Trumpet is blown. Check every trumpet, you will find it is ALWAYS the Trumpet blown THEN the event. The same is true for the seals being opened and the vials being poured.

    As Rev 11:15 matches Rev 12:10 this speaks then of the parable Jesus gave in Luke 19:
    Luk 19:12* He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.

    Notice the kingdom is given in a far country. After He is given it THEN He returns. He doesn't return and then gets given it.
    You see it is about Jesus being given His inheritance, which relies on the gospel being preached in all the world, and the testimony of this, which is why Satan is cast to the earth. It is ALL a single time,

    Matt 25 Jesus illustrates this as well:
    Mat 25:6* But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’*
    Where was the Bridegroom when the cry was given? Was He right there? No He wasn't. If He were then all 10 virgins would have entered with Him.
    This cry is actually the START of the GT. He is now ready and the bride is now being made ready.

    You are adding zero plus zero plus zero and trying to conclude a lot. Please can you show me that your views are not assumptions but are based on bible verses.
    My views are of course assumptions. Every assumption is based on scripture. I have shown you this above.
    You also make assumptions. You make an assumption that somehow the AC will have authority over the 2W or can ignore them and that what they say won't affect how people view him. There is NO WAY for the AC to claim he is god when the 2W could challenge him like Elijah did the false prophets.
    However when he kills them, then there is NO ONE to challenge him and God allows him to exercise authority even over Christians.

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