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Thread: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

  1. #61
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I have. Either you don't want to see or can't????

    The two anointed ones stand before God

    Zech 4:14
    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    Gabriel stands before God

    Luke 1
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Gabriel = anointed one
    No, what you have tried to do is argue that because Gabriel stands before the Lord that this makes him God's anointed.
    The FACT is that there are MANY angels who stand before the Lord. Gabriel is just one of many:
    Rev 4:4* Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.*

    Notice 24 Elders, are they the anointed ones?

    Rev 4:6* and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:*

    Or what about these creatures?

    Rev 5:2* And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”

    Or how about this might angel?

    I could continue throughout Revelation alone.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Please provide a scripture where two peoples are called anointed.
    Further how they stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.
    The anointing can be a corporate anointing:
    2 Cor 1: Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed US

    So it certainly is possible that two anointed ones, can be two groups of people, because anointing can be corporate , and the word "ben" can mean a group of people. So your claim that two anointed ones have to be individuals is incorrect, other possibilities exist.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The FACT is that there are MANY angels who stand before the Lord. Gabriel is just one of many:
    Rev 4:4* Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.*
    Never says they are standing. It does say they are seated!!!

    And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    Rev 4:6* and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:*

    Or what about these creatures?
    Again never says they are standing.

    Rev 5:2* And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”

    Or how about this might angel?

    Could be Michael or Gabriel.

    I could continue throughout Revelation alone.

    Michael and Gabriel are the only two angels recorded witnessing to the prophets.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3479071]

    Never says they are standing. It does say they are seated!!!
    And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.[
    Again never says they are standing.
    Could be Michael or Gabriel.
    Michael and Gabriel are the only two angels recorded witnessing to the prophets.
    Rev 8:2* Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

    Nowhere are angels called anointed. They may be called holy and other things but not anointed.
    Find a verse where the angels are anointed and only then might you have a tenuous claim.
    As it is you have latched onto a phrase.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The anointing can be a corporate anointing:
    2 Cor 1: Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed US

    So it certainly is possible that two anointed ones, can be two groups of people, because anointing can be corporate , and the word "ben" can mean a group of people. So your claim that two anointed ones have to be individuals is incorrect, other possibilities exist.
    Anointing can be corporate but then it is NOT numerate.
    There are many who have been anointed.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Anointing can be corporate but then it is NOT numerate.
    There are many who have been anointed.
    Exactly the corporate anointing can be on a group of anointed people. These people would therefore be anointed. Candlesticks are churches according to Rev 2/3 and have corporate anointing. Each of the seven churches are actually anointed ones, being groups of people with the corporate anointing.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Exactly the corporate anointing can be on a group of anointed people. These people would therefore be anointed. Candlesticks are churches according to Rev 2/3 and have corporate anointing. Each of the seven churches are actually anointed ones, being groups of people with the corporate anointing.
    I get your reasoning. You have managed that well.
    I still do not agree though as clearly there are NOT two churches lying dead in the street. You might argue that the people of two churches may all lie dead, but that is NOT the same thing.
    As ALL the churches are anointed into ONE Body, then you also have the problem that there is reality only ONE Church.
    You see the candlesticks for churches is speaking of the light of Christ in more than one location.
    Those in one location form one body - you are either in Him or not.
    Additionally in Zech 4 there is clearly no church being seen.

    Also do you have an example of an Olive Tree meaning a Church?

    You see we keep coming back to the simplest idea - TWO individuals who may also represent Jews and Gentiles, or Jews and Christians, or as some might claim the Church of Smyrna and Philadelphia.. It is NOT The entire church but ONLY the representative as found in the individual.
    This is why others have thought as Law and Grace, or Prophets and Priests.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 8:2* Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
    Gabriel and Michael would be two of the seven. Note interestingly the mention of the two witnesses occurs after the 6th trump the other 5 have sounded. Thus Gabriel and Michael sound the 6th and 7th trumpets.

    Nowhere are angels called anointed.
    EZ 28:14
    Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    Find a verse where the angels are anointed and only then might you have a tenuous claim.
    None directly, but that should not mean theses two are not. Note nowhere does it say Jesus was God directly either...… However a very good case was made.

    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Rev 11
    These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    [/B]

    Zech 4
    11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
    12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    2 Candlesticks represent 2 churches and represent 2 angels.

    Note they are also two olive trees as the anointing of the oil (Spirit).

  9. #69
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Gabriel and Michael would be two of the seven. Note interestingly the mention of the two witnesses occurs after the 6th trump the other 5 have sounded. Thus Gabriel and Michael sound the 6th and 7th trumpets.
    Nope, neither Gabriel nor Michael mentioned as two of the seven.
    Further the role of these is to blow trumpets.
    Additionally in Zech only 2 are mentioned, which makes a distinction.

    EZ 28:14
    Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    Good find.
    However who is being spoken of?

    None directly, but that should not mean theses two are not. Note nowhere does it say Jesus was God directly either...… However a very good case was made.
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Rev 11
    These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    [/B]

    Zech 4
    11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
    12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    2 Candlesticks represent 2 churches and represent 2 angels.
    Note they are also two olive trees as the anointing of the oil (Spirit).
    I still don't see them being angels.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I get your reasoning. You have managed that well.
    I still do not agree though as clearly there are NOT two churches lying dead in the street. You might argue that the people of two churches may all lie dead, but that is NOT the same thing.
    As ALL the churches are anointed into ONE Body, then you also have the problem that there is reality only ONE Church.
    You see the candlesticks for churches is speaking of the light of Christ in more than one location.
    Those in one location form one body - you are either in Him or not.
    Additionally in Zech 4 there is clearly no church being seen.

    Also do you have an example of an Olive Tree meaning a Church?

    You see we keep coming back to the simplest idea - TWO individuals who may also represent Jews and Gentiles, or Jews and Christians, or as some might claim the Church of Smyrna and Philadelphia.. It is NOT The entire church but ONLY the representative as found in the individual.
    This is why others have thought as Law and Grace, or Prophets and Priests.
    You seem to be making a simple concept complicated. The seven candlesticks are seven city churches. Thus two candlesticks can be two city churches. Can an entire corporate church in a certain area be martyred, yes , so its possible that their bodies lie in the streets. Why would Jerusalem have more than one city-chruch compared to the seven city churches that only had one candlestick per city? It is one of the only cities separated into sections. Berlin was like that. South Africa was like that. But you do not get too many cities with established separated sections like Jerusalem, this lends itself to the possibility that it can have two candlesticks instead of just one.

    What is an olive tree? It is part of the church with the anointing, just like we are grafted into the olive tree and partake of its sap as per Romans 11, but unbelieving Jews are not. The olive tree is further confirmation of the anointing.

    I am not saying it has to be two churches, but the existence of the same symbol of candlesticks representing city-churches in Rev 2/3 lends itself to that possibility, and I think it should be something we should be open to in the end-times. Instead of two individual prophets, we can also look out for two demonstrating groups in Jerusalem, who take to the streets and object to the antichrist ruling in their midst in Jerusalem.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You seem to be making a simple concept complicated.
    I am the one keeping it simple.
    Two individuals is a lot simpler than what you are proposing.
    The Two individuals represent Two things - churches whatever.

    The seven candlesticks are seven city churches. Thus two candlesticks can be two city churches. Can an entire corporate church in a certain area be martyred, yes , so its possible that their bodies lie in the streets. Why would Jerusalem have more than one city-chruch compared to the seven city churches that only had one candlestick per city? It is one of the only cities separated into sections. Berlin was like that. South Africa was like that. But you do not get too many cities with established separated sections like Jerusalem, this lends itself to the possibility that it can have two candlesticks instead of just one.
    Sorry, but when the 2W are there they are ONE. It isn't two city churches. Also which city has a split like this anymore? Nowadays it is along denominational lines as much as anything.

    What is an olive tree? It is part of the church with the anointing, just like we are grafted into the olive tree and partake of its sap as per Romans 11, but unbelieving Jews are not. The olive tree is further confirmation of the anointing.
    So which Olive tree has the anointing?
    So are you saying one is the Jews and the other the Gentiles?

    I am not saying it has to be two churches, but the existence of the same symbol of candlesticks representing city-churches in Rev 2/3 lends itself to that possibility, and I think it should be something we should be open to in the end-times. Instead of two individual prophets, we can also look out for two demonstrating groups in Jerusalem, who take to the streets and object to the antichrist ruling in their midst in Jerusalem.
    We should consider things which are suggested by scripture, but we shouldn't be shackled to them as if this is the sole meaning.
    We as individuals are also likened to lamps on a stand by Jesus.
    I see no reasoning why it would be two groups. It may be two representatives of two groups (in fat it almost certainly is), but it breaks down when you cliam it is a demonstration group.
    Notice the things they do and their purpose.
    One last thing when the AC is ruling they are dead already because the AC kills them. He doesn't start ruling UNTIL they are dead.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    One last thing when the AC is ruling they are dead already because the AC kills them. He doesn't start ruling UNTIL they are dead.
    This is a whole new subject. I see them as starting their ministry 3.5 days before the antichrist comes to power, and being killed 3.5 days before the antichrist finishes his rule. Do you have any reason why this is incorrect?

    I feel your timing is incorrect, because you are associating the start of the antichrist's rule with the start of Christ's rule:
    At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. (immediately)

    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”


    By placing the end of the witnesses with the start of the beast's reign, you are placing the start of the beast's reign with the start of Christ's reign over the kingdom of this world. This just does not make sense.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    This is a whole new subject. I see them as starting their ministry 3.5 days before the antichrist comes to power, and being killed 3.5 days before the antichrist finishes his rule. Do you have any reason why this is incorrect?
    OK whole other thread.
    Yes the AC CANNOT rule while they are alive. He cannot claim to be god while they are alive.
    The AC starts his reign AFTER the 7th trumpet is blown.
    The 6th trumpet and woe is NOT about the AC but the 2W.

    I feel your timing is incorrect, because you are associating the start of the antichrist's rule with the start of Christ's rule:
    At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. (immediately)
    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

    By placing the end of the witnesses with the start of the beast's reign, you are placing the start of the beast's reign with the start of Christ's reign over the kingdom of this world. This just does not make sense.
    Who is presently ruler of the world? Is it God? Yet we have Satan doing what he does, we have sin and all sorts of things.
    When we have a change in heaven from the Father to the Son, the earth doesn't change all by itself.
    You see you apply the idea of NOW in Rev 11:15 differently to how you apply the word in Rev 12:
    Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.*
    Rev 12:11* And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.*
    Rev 12:12* Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”*

    When does Rev 12 state that His kingdom has come? It is NOW!
    Yet we also note that even at the moment when this happens, Satan is cast to the earth and that the woe on earth starts.
    Do you not agree that Satan being cast to the earth is connected with the START of the AC's reign?
    Rev 12:17* Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.*
    Rev 13:1* And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

    The earthquake in Rev 11:13 is this one:
    Zec 14:4* On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.*
    Zec 14:5* And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

    Earlier in Rev 11 the temple is not yet overrun. IOW the AC has NOT YET stopped sacrifices and has NOT placed the image in the Holy Place.
    He CANNOT do so because of the 2W. It is NOT YET given over to him.

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    OK whole other thread.
    Yes the AC CANNOT rule while they are alive. He cannot claim to be god while they are alive.
    The AC starts his reign AFTER the 7th trumpet is blown.
    The 6th trumpet and woe is NOT about the AC but the 2W.


    Who is presently ruler of the world? Is it God? Yet we have Satan doing what he does, we have sin and all sorts of things.
    When we have a change in heaven from the Father to the Son, the earth doesn't change all by itself.
    You see you apply the idea of NOW in Rev 11:15 differently to how you apply the word in Rev 12:
    Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.*
    Rev 12:11* And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.*
    Rev 12:12* Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”*

    When does Rev 12 state that His kingdom has come? It is NOW!
    Yet we also note that even at the moment when this happens, Satan is cast to the earth and that the woe on earth starts.
    Do you not agree that Satan being cast to the earth is connected with the START of the AC's reign?
    Rev 12:17* Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.*
    Rev 13:1* And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.

    The earthquake in Rev 11:13 is this one:
    Zec 14:4* On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.*
    Zec 14:5* And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

    Earlier in Rev 11 the temple is not yet overrun. IOW the AC has NOT YET stopped sacrifices and has NOT placed the image in the Holy Place.
    He CANNOT do so because of the 2W. It is NOT YET given over to him.

    Why cannot the witnesses and the beast be concurrent? It doesn't seem logical that they are somehow protected; but think about it, so is the woman of Rev 12 protected during that final period. And Rev 11 is clear that people try to harm them, so the two witnesses are under attack.

    You make a point about matching the kingdom come of Rev 12 with the kingdoms of the world of Rev 11, I see Jesus reigning over the actual kingdoms of this world as a more literal event, than Satan's fall of Rev 12, which is a sign of final victory which manifests 3.5 years later. But I do follow your thinking which has some logic behind it.

    Regarding the great earthquake, whether Zechariah 14, Rev 11 or elsewhere I always see it as the final earthquake at the second coming, and so the earthquake argument will only lead to multiple side discussions about where to place various earthquakes on the GT timeline.

    Can you disprove my view, rather than merely having an alternative view?

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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Why cannot the witnesses and the beast be concurrent? It doesn't seem logical that they are somehow protected; but think about it, so is the woman of Rev 12 protected during that final period. And Rev 11 is clear that people try to harm them, so the two witnesses are under attack.
    The woman is taken to the wilderness WHERE she is protected. The 2W are NOT in the wilderness.
    Rev 11 shows them defeating EVERYONE who tries to harm them until the AC does so.

    You make a point about matching the kingdom come of Rev 12 with the kingdoms of the world of Rev 11, I see Jesus reigning over the actual kingdoms of this world as a more literal event, than Satan's fall of Rev 12, which is a sign of final victory which manifests 3.5 years later. But I do follow your thinking which has some logic behind it.
    Good. The logic is simple, a declaration is made, then the follow up happens.

    Regarding the great earthquake, whether Zechariah 14, Rev 11 or elsewhere I always see it as the final earthquake at the second coming, and so the earthquake argument will only lead to multiple side discussions about where to place various earthquakes on the GT timeline.
    Can you disprove my view, rather than merely having an alternative view?
    The final earthquake is presented as greater than any earthquake ever. Only 7,000 dying in a city of hundreds of thousands is NOT he greatest earthquake ever.
    Further the placing of the event is in connection with the 6th trumpet BEFORE the 7th trumpet is blown.
    So you have the earthquake occurring BEFORE the kingdoms of this world...

    Also you didn't address my point that Rev 11 states:
    Rev 11:1 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,
    Rev 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

    Notice the temple and altar - the Holy Place is NOT given over to the nations. So how does the AC place an AoD in that temple while it is NOT given over, while the 2W are there who can call down plagues and destroy people by fire?
    Even if he could place it then they could tear it down.
    There is no logic to the AC being able to rule for the 42 months whilst the 2W are in place in Jerusalem.
    However when the AC kills them this will demonstrate his power and allow him to declare himself god with no one to be able to gainsay him.

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