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Thread: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

  1. #61
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I have. Either you don't want to see or can't????

    The two anointed ones stand before God

    Zech 4:14
    Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    Gabriel stands before God

    Luke 1
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Gabriel = anointed one
    No, what you have tried to do is argue that because Gabriel stands before the Lord that this makes him God's anointed.
    The FACT is that there are MANY angels who stand before the Lord. Gabriel is just one of many:
    Rev 4:4* Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.*

    Notice 24 Elders, are they the anointed ones?

    Rev 4:6* and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:*

    Or what about these creatures?

    Rev 5:2* And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”

    Or how about this might angel?

    I could continue throughout Revelation alone.

  2. #62
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Please provide a scripture where two peoples are called anointed.
    Further how they stand beside the Lord of the whole earth.
    The anointing can be a corporate anointing:
    2 Cor 1: Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed US

    So it certainly is possible that two anointed ones, can be two groups of people, because anointing can be corporate , and the word "ben" can mean a group of people. So your claim that two anointed ones have to be individuals is incorrect, other possibilities exist.

  3. #63
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The FACT is that there are MANY angels who stand before the Lord. Gabriel is just one of many:
    Rev 4:4* Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.*
    Never says they are standing. It does say they are seated!!!

    And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    Rev 4:6* and before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass, like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind:*

    Or what about these creatures?
    Again never says they are standing.

    Rev 5:2* And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?”

    Or how about this might angel?

    Could be Michael or Gabriel.

    I could continue throughout Revelation alone.

    Michael and Gabriel are the only two angels recorded witnessing to the prophets.

  4. #64
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    [QUOTE=ross3421;3479071]

    Never says they are standing. It does say they are seated!!!
    And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.[
    Again never says they are standing.
    Could be Michael or Gabriel.
    Michael and Gabriel are the only two angels recorded witnessing to the prophets.
    Rev 8:2* Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

    Nowhere are angels called anointed. They may be called holy and other things but not anointed.
    Find a verse where the angels are anointed and only then might you have a tenuous claim.
    As it is you have latched onto a phrase.

  5. #65
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The anointing can be a corporate anointing:
    2 Cor 1: Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed US

    So it certainly is possible that two anointed ones, can be two groups of people, because anointing can be corporate , and the word "ben" can mean a group of people. So your claim that two anointed ones have to be individuals is incorrect, other possibilities exist.
    Anointing can be corporate but then it is NOT numerate.
    There are many who have been anointed.

  6. #66
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Anointing can be corporate but then it is NOT numerate.
    There are many who have been anointed.
    Exactly the corporate anointing can be on a group of anointed people. These people would therefore be anointed. Candlesticks are churches according to Rev 2/3 and have corporate anointing. Each of the seven churches are actually anointed ones, being groups of people with the corporate anointing.

  7. #67
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Exactly the corporate anointing can be on a group of anointed people. These people would therefore be anointed. Candlesticks are churches according to Rev 2/3 and have corporate anointing. Each of the seven churches are actually anointed ones, being groups of people with the corporate anointing.
    I get your reasoning. You have managed that well.
    I still do not agree though as clearly there are NOT two churches lying dead in the street. You might argue that the people of two churches may all lie dead, but that is NOT the same thing.
    As ALL the churches are anointed into ONE Body, then you also have the problem that there is reality only ONE Church.
    You see the candlesticks for churches is speaking of the light of Christ in more than one location.
    Those in one location form one body - you are either in Him or not.
    Additionally in Zech 4 there is clearly no church being seen.

    Also do you have an example of an Olive Tree meaning a Church?

    You see we keep coming back to the simplest idea - TWO individuals who may also represent Jews and Gentiles, or Jews and Christians, or as some might claim the Church of Smyrna and Philadelphia.. It is NOT The entire church but ONLY the representative as found in the individual.
    This is why others have thought as Law and Grace, or Prophets and Priests.

  8. #68
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 8:2* Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
    Gabriel and Michael would be two of the seven. Note interestingly the mention of the two witnesses occurs after the 6th trump the other 5 have sounded. Thus Gabriel and Michael sound the 6th and 7th trumpets.

    Nowhere are angels called anointed.
    EZ 28:14
    Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    Find a verse where the angels are anointed and only then might you have a tenuous claim.
    None directly, but that should not mean theses two are not. Note nowhere does it say Jesus was God directly either...… However a very good case was made.

    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Rev 11
    These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    [/B]

    Zech 4
    11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
    12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


    2 Candlesticks represent 2 churches and represent 2 angels.

    Note they are also two olive trees as the anointing of the oil (Spirit).

  9. #69
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    Re: Revelation 11- Two Witnesses-moved from BC

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Gabriel and Michael would be two of the seven. Note interestingly the mention of the two witnesses occurs after the 6th trump the other 5 have sounded. Thus Gabriel and Michael sound the 6th and 7th trumpets.
    Nope, neither Gabriel nor Michael mentioned as two of the seven.
    Further the role of these is to blow trumpets.
    Additionally in Zech only 2 are mentioned, which makes a distinction.

    EZ 28:14
    Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    Good find.
    However who is being spoken of?

    None directly, but that should not mean theses two are not. Note nowhere does it say Jesus was God directly either...… However a very good case was made.
    And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Rev 11
    These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    [/B]

    Zech 4
    11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
    12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
    13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
    14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

    2 Candlesticks represent 2 churches and represent 2 angels.
    Note they are also two olive trees as the anointing of the oil (Spirit).
    I still don't see them being angels.

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