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Thread: escape all these things that shall come to pass

  1. #1

    escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    From a post trib position, were does this passage fit in your time line?

    I have highlighted and underlined parts that I am struggling with:

    'they see the Son of man coming in a cloud'
    'when these things begin to come to pass'
    'shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth'
    'worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass'

  2. #2
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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    I'm unclear of what your saying, could you explain more?

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
    Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    From a post trib position, were does this passage fit in your time line?

    I have highlighted and underlined parts that I am struggling with:

    'they see the Son of man coming in a cloud'
    'when these things begin to come to pass'
    'shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth'
    'worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass'

    The sign in the sun, moon, and stars mentioned above in Luke 21:25 is also mentioned elsewhere: like Matt. 24:29 and Rev. 6:12,13. This sign signifies the coming of the Son of Man: Matt. 24:27 and Rev. 6:16,17. This same sign is also indicated in the Old Testament as signaling the arrival of the Day of the LORD: see Joel 2:10 and 31, Isa. 13:6-11 for example. Paul makes it very clear that that Day (the Day of the LORD) will not come until after the man of sin (the AntiChrist) is revealed, and the bible makes clear that AntiChrist's revealing occurs at the Abomination of Desolation (see Daniel 9 and Matt. 24).

    So the escape spoken of in Luke 21:36 is with respect to the Day of the LORD judgement which occurs at the coming of the Son of Man which occurs after the coming of AntiChrist and his persecution. So, from a post-trib position (if one defines post-trib as being after the persecution by the AntiChrist) then the deliverance of the saints occurs exactly when it should: after the persecution by the AntiChrist, but just before the Day of the LORD judgements begin. (The Son of Man appears, raptures His church which was being persecuted, and then the Day of the Lord judgements begin, just as it is laid out in Matt. 24 and Rev. 6-9.)

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    There won't be many to rapture if it happens post trib........no blessed hope at all.
    Revelation 3:3
    .....If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Illumined View Post
    There won't be many to rapture if it happens post trib........no blessed hope at all.
    The blessed hope isn't in some secret rapture before the glorious appearing of the Lord. The glorious appearing IS our blessed hope!

    Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    (Tit 2:13)

  6. #6
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    Caleb said:

    From a post trib position, were does this passage fit in your time line?

    I have highlighted and underlined parts that I am struggling with:

    'they see the Son of man coming in a cloud'
    'when these things begin to come to pass'
    'shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth'
    'worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass'
    From a post-trib perspective, Luke 21:27 is referring to Jesus' second coming (cf. Matthew 24:29-31). So Luke 21:28 is referring only to the signs which will accompany his second coming (Luke 21:25-27), not the things which will happen during the preceding tribulation (Luke 21:8-24).

    Regarding Luke 21:35-36, note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture. For some believers will escape all of the tribulation by dying before it begins (cf. Isaiah 57:1), and other believers will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (e.g. Revelation 12:14-16, cf. Psalms 91).

    Those who escape the tribulation by dying before it starts will stand before the Lord in heaven (cf. Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who escape the tribulation by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't happen until after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7-21).

    Note that Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same future second coming of Jesus Christ and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same future second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6).

    Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 42-month worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

    At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before the obedient portion of the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

    Jesus will then make the wedding supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    Holding too strongly to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea could leave some believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation. The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Revelation chapters 6-18 so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

    ---

    Regarding the idea of a mid-tribulation, sixth-seal rapture, note that Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 can be two different events, because Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over.

    Also, Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 can be two different events because when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs the moon's light will temporarily appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs the moon's light will temporarily not be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light will temporarily not be seen at all, during a third of the night (Revelation 8:12).

    Also, the sun's light temporarily not being seen in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that the sun's light will be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground. For subsequently, during the fourth trumpet (part of the second stage of the tribulation), the sun's light will again be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground, for a third of the day (Revelation 8:12). And then subsequently, during the fifth trumpet (also part of the second stage of the tribulation), the sun's light will again be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground (Revelation 9:2).

    And then subsequently, during the fifth vial (part of the fourth and final stage of the tribulation, the third stage being the 3.5-year time period of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist: Revelation chapters 11-14), the sun's light will again be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground (Revelation 16:10). Then, after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, the sun's light will again be temporarily blocked from reaching the ground, and Jesus Christ will return and gather together (rapture) and marry the church (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

    Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that what will appear like stars will fall from the sky. For subsequently, during the third trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11). And then subsequently, during the fifth trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 9:1). And then subsequently, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4). Then, after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, what will appear like stars will fall from the sky, and Jesus Christ will return and gather together (rapture) and marry the church (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

    ---

    Regarding the blessed hope (Titus 2:13), it's the hope of eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in the sense of obtaining an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at the second coming of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 20:4-6). And Jesus himself is the hope of Christians (1 Timothy 1:1b), for he himself is eternal life (John 14:6), and only by believing in him can they have eternal life (John 3:36).
    Last edited by Bible2; Apr 6th 2011 at 02:53 AM.

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Illumined View Post
    There won't be many to rapture if it happens post trib........no blessed hope at all.
    you misunderstand the blessed hope.
    it isnt removal from the planet.

    the blessed hope is the appearing of our great God and savoiur Jesus Christ.

    what more blessed hope could any christian have, under any circumstance, than that?

    As John said, when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is!!!

    His appearing is the blessed hope for all the redeemed of all ages!!

  8. #8

    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    you misunderstand the blessed hope.
    it isnt removal from the planet.

    the blessed hope is the appearing of our great God and savoiur Jesus Christ.

    what more blessed hope could any christian have, under any circumstance, than that?

    As John said, when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is!!!

    His appearing is the blessed hope for all the redeemed of all ages!!

    Why would we looking for the blessed hope if AntiChrist must appear first? Would we not look for the AntiChrist if the events of the harpazo(1thes4) occurs at the end of the tribulation period?
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by thedee View Post
    Why would we looking for the blessed hope if AntiChrist must appear first? Would we not look for the AntiChrist if the events of the harpazo(1thes4) occurs at the end of the tribulation period?
    1. The bible tells us that is our blessed hope.

    2. The bible never mentions to look for any Antichrist. Only interpretations of the bible tell us to look for "the Antichrist". Antichrist is a spirit and had already appeared back when John wrote about it.

    Our only instructions about the Antichrist found in the bible, was that it already came.

    Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
    (1Jn 2:18)

  10. #10

    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    1. The bible tells us that is our blessed hope.

    2. The bible never mentions to look for any Antichrist. Only interpretations of the bible tell us to look for "the Antichrist". Antichrist is a spirit and had already appeared back when John wrote about it.

    Our only instructions about the Antichrist found in the bible, was that it already came.

    Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
    (1Jn 2:18)
    Whatever. 1Jon2:18 is speaking both of a singular Antichrist that will come and also a plural (many that will come).
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by thedee View Post
    Whatever. 1Jon2:18 is speaking both of a singular Antichrist that will come and also a plural (many that will come).
    John NEVER said "THE" antichrist shall come. In fact, the tense of the original Greek for "shall come" is present tense, not future.

  12. #12

    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    John NEVER said "THE" antichrist shall come. In fact, the tense of the original Greek for "shall come" is present tense, not future.
    Not so. 1John 2:18 and "shall come" is something of the future. If I say the train shall come I mean it has not yet come but will eventually.

    "Shall Come" =

    a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
    b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    From a post trib position, were does this passage fit in your time line?

    When that tribulation period draws closer, we must pray that we escape drunkeness and wordly concerns.

    We cannot escape all those other events because Luke is already telling what good Christian behaviour is during those times, it would be an absolute contradiction for the bible to be saying that we must watch out for certain events and when they happen expect our redemption to be near, but don't worry you won't even be there anyway for any of the events. (that doesn't make any sense does it?)

  14. #14

    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post

    'they see the Son of man coming in a cloud'
    First it may be placed in the correct context and that would be that the Son of man coming is a way to say that the Day of the Lord is coming or the day of judgment as in many times in the OT it was expressed as coming in clouds. One OT passage that uses this metaphor of judgment in clouds can be found in Jeremiah 4:13-14.

    Also that judgment upon the wicked can be said as a woman in pangs and sorrows as if in a woman that travaileth which is described by Isaiah of the city Babylon and again of the city Jerusalem (Isaiah 13:6-10 & Isaiah 66:6-10). If you notice in the passage of Isaiah 13:10 it speaks of the stars and heaven not given their light, which would indicate judgment day.

    'when these things begin to come to pass'


    Second that it from Luke's account Jesus had described many things that would take place. He also used an anaology that of an fig tree, and all the trees in which he described how that when the buds shoot forth it's a sign that summer is near. We can parallel what Jesus used as a analogy 'tig tree' with what would happen in the days of Judgment, days of Vengence.

    At the beginning Jesus said unto them to flee when you see Jerusalem compassed with arimes, this would parallel with the shooting forth of the fig tree. Of which they would know without anyone having to tell them that the city would be desolated, which would parallel with the heat of the summer of which they knew for themselves.

    'shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth'
    The snare was set in Jerusalem for by the feast days all the Jewish men would come to the city Jerusalem, but Jesus gives a warning to 'watch ye therefore, and pray always that ye be accounted worthy to escape'. We can see this fraction of believers that fleed the city just before it was laid seige by Titus.

    'worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass'
    Yes those believers that fleed the city ecaped the torments of 3 1/2 years unto the city final desturction. They were accounted worth because they believed the Messiah Jesus and having the knowledge and understanding of his teachings which came from above and understood that they needed to flee the city because God's wrath was going to be poured out upon the wicked.

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    Re: escape all these things that shall come to pass

    Quote Originally Posted by thedee View Post
    Not so. 1John 2:18 and "shall come" is something of the future. If I say the train shall come I mean it has not yet come but will eventually.

    "Shall Come" =

    a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
    b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
    The Greek word "erchomai" which was translated into "shall come" of 1 John 2:18 IS present tense. You are speaking about the english translation, NOT the original word. Click here for proof.

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