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Thread: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

  1. #1

    Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    I thess 3:13
    To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


    Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


    Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


    Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    I thess 3:13
    To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


    Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


    Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


    Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.
    Rom, you don't believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

    Those people had not been 'raptured' out of here ahead of anything. They simply died. All these years, the saints have died and gone on to be with the Lord. Those who were faithful to their death are today... a great cloud of witnesses!
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    I thess 3:13
    To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


    Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


    Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


    Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.
    Based on what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14-17, we can see that He both comes with saints (the dead in Christ) and for saints (those who are alive and remain). So, with that in mind, I believe the only way to interpret 1 Thess 3:13 in such a way as to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17 is to conclude that 1 Thess 3:13 is speaking of all the dead in Christ in particular.

  4. #4

    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    Rom, you don't believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?

    Those people had not been 'raptured' out of here ahead of anything. They simply died. All these years, the saints have died and gone on to be with the Lord. Those who were faithful to their death are today... a great cloud of witnesses!
    The verse I am asking about does not speak of only those saints who have died prior to the rapture. It says all his saints. If it says all his saints, that would have to include both those who are living and those who are dead at the time of the rapture. Had the verse said he is coming with some of His saints (those who have died), I would be able to accept your explanation that he is only coming with those who have died. Yet it says all .

  5. #5

    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Based on what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14-17, we can see that He both comes with saints (the dead in Christ) and for saints (those who are alive and remain). So, with that in mind, I believe the only way to interpret 1 Thess 3:13 in such a way as to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17 is to conclude that 1 Thess 3:13 is speaking of all the dead in Christ in particular.
    As I said to my response to diggindeeper, the verse does not say "some" of His saints. It says he is coming with all of his saints.

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Based on what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14-17, we can see that He both comes with saints (the dead in Christ) and for saints (those who are alive and remain). So, with that in mind, I believe the only way to interpret 1 Thess 3:13 in such a way as to not contradict 1 Thess 4:14-17 is to conclude that 1 Thess 3:13 is speaking of all the dead in Christ in particular.
    The rest, those who 'remain', are explained in the above quote.

    He comes with them and for them.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    That's the only way they ALL end up WITH Him. (None left behind. No saints left, not even FUTURE saints. Because they ALL end up WITH Him.)
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    The verse I am asking about does not speak of only those saints who have died prior to the rapture. It says all his saints. If it says all his saints, that would have to include both those who are living and those who are dead at the time of the rapture. Had the verse said he is coming with some of His saints (those who have died), I would be able to accept your explanation that he is only coming with those who have died. Yet it says all .



    I hear what you're saying with the 'all' and everything. Something else to take notice of tho.

    1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
    13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    I would think the ones Paul is speaking to here, would have to be different than the ones at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    Notice what is said in verse 13...To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father. Then he goes on to say...at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    Why would Paul be speaking to them that way? If they were expected to be with all the saints at His coming, then why is he sounding like he's meaning they will be meeting them or something? Maybe it's just me, but in verse 13 it's almost like there's at least 2 groups in mind, and that the first group is waiting to meet the 2nd group, in this case, the Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. Maybe the saints here should be understood as heavenly angels or something, since heavenly angels clearly accompanied Him unto heaven, and the fact that He's to be returning in like manner?

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    As I said to my response to diggindeeper, the verse does not say "some" of His saints. It says he is coming with all of his saints.
    Yes, I know what it says, but don't we need to make sure our interpretation of that verse does not contradict other passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17? Does it make sense to you that He would come at a time when none of His saints were alive on the earth?

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    I thess 3:13
    To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


    Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


    Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


    Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.
    I think this is a good thread that needs reviving. Not just because i agree with his point, but that there is another part of this verse that drives home the point. "[to be presented] in blamelessness and holiness, BEFORE GOD, EVEN THE FATHER, at THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS with all his saints". Where is he "coming" to. "Coming" here is the word erchomai, meaning too arrive. Jesus is here arriving with the saints TO the Father. I think this is in agreement with:

    *[[Dan 7:13]] KJV* I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I think this is a good thread that needs reviving. Not just because i agree with his point, but that there is another part of this verse that drives home the point. "[to be presented] in blamelessness and holiness, BEFORE GOD, EVEN THE FATHER, at THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS with all his saints". Where is he "coming" to. "Coming" here is the word erchomai, meaning too arrive. Jesus is here arriving with the saints TO the Father. I think this is in agreement with:

    *[[Dan 7:13]] KJV* I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    I agree this thread is worthy of reviving since the OP asks some excellent questions needing good answers for. But at the same time though, this thread is a bit eerie because it had two posters posting in it, meaning John 146 and Diggindeeper, who both seem to have vanished off the face of the earth and were never heard from again. Apparently, the last post Diggindeeper made was in 2016 when there were fires in her area. She hasn't posted since. Can't help wonder if something may have happened to her at the time? As to John 146, still can't figure out what ever became of him either.

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    I thess 3:13
    To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

    I highlighted the word all because I think it might present a problem for both pre-trib and post-trib.


    Problem for post-trib: if the Lord Jesus Christ is coming with all his saints, doesn't that mean they had to be raptured sometime prior to him coming with them?


    Problem for pre-trib: Most pre-tribbers say that the "tribulation" saints are never raptured since the rapture occurs prior to the tribulation. How can they then be coming with the Lord Jesus Christ at His return. I thess 3:13 says he come with all his saints.


    Hopefully some in both camps can answers these questions.
    No problem at all for either I would think IF you believe the NHNE starts with the MK.
    When does Jesus come with ALL His saints? The answer is the rapture.
    This means that ALL His saints are with Him BEFORE He arrives on earth, but does NOT require that ALL His saints are with Him when He leaves heaven.
    IOW if we meet Him in the sky, then we come with Him and remain with Him.

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No problem at all for either I would think IF you believe the NHNE starts with the MK.
    When does Jesus come with ALL His saints? The answer is the rapture.
    This means that ALL His saints are with Him BEFORE He arrives on earth, but does NOT require that ALL His saints are with Him when He leaves heaven.
    IOW if we meet Him in the sky, then we come with Him and remain with Him.
    I am not sure what the NHNE has to do with this. But, also, are you saying that the jixt of this coming/ erchomai, is NOT to be presented to the Father? This scripture ought to refute, without question, the belief that there isn't going to be a rapture. But it didn't.
    Blessings

    GB

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    I can see this as a bigger issue for post-trib adherents who look at the rapture as meeting Jesus in a continual descent from heaven. Not necessarily all of post-trib.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: Does I thess 3:13 present a problem for both a pre-trib and post-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No problem at all for either I would think IF you believe the NHNE starts with the MK.
    When does Jesus come with ALL His saints? The answer is the rapture.
    This means that ALL His saints are with Him BEFORE He arrives on earth, but does NOT require that ALL His saints are with Him when He leaves heaven.
    IOW if we meet Him in the sky, then we come with Him and remain with Him.
    I apparently forgot that that's basically how I see it as well. Good point.

    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


    Though heaven oftentimes means where Jesus is currently dwelling, it doesn't mean that every time though. Sometimes it means the skies in our atmosphere. Assuming it could mean the latter, it seems to me the following might have that covered then.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Thus they all meet Christ in the air as He is descending towards the earth once heaven is opened and that He is then seen leaving it, thus forming the armies in the process, the ones seen in verse 14 above. And what does He and His armies do next? Confront on the earth the beast and it's armies. It seems to me then, this all adds up to all of His saints being with Him when He returns to destroy those that have been destroying the earth. None of this requires a Pretrib rapture to work. It actually debunks a Pretrib rapture because the timing of Rev 19 is the 2nd coming, and if the armies in Revelation 19:14 can be explained per
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, that makes the latter to be meaning the 2nd coming as well.

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