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Thread: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

  1. #31
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Yep, scripture seems pretty clear on this point... maybe its about both?
    The king of Tyre was in Eden?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  2. #32

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    The king of Tyre was in Eden?
    No the king of Tyre was not in Eden. Why did the prophet address the king of Tyre and call him a covering Cherub?

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    No the king of Tyre was not in Eden. Why did the prophet address the king of Tyre and call him a covering Cherub?
    In verse 2 God specifically says "you are a man".

    I don't think that chapter is about an angel at all. It's about...the king of Tyre. Just as God said.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  4. #34
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    No the king of Tyre was not in Eden. Why did the prophet address the king of Tyre and call him a covering Cherub?


    Too much literalism applied to scriptures that aren't intended to be received literally, causes much misunderstanding.

    The example of Satan being the 'King of Tyre' is not a literal intent.

    Isaiah through those passages, is making use of a specific literally techique. It is not literalism, it is personification.

    He is personifying the King of Tyre liken to Satan and all things evil standing against God and the Israelites. He does the same type of personification with the King of Babylon, the King of Edom, the King of Egypt, etc. Isaiah isn't saying any of these 'are' Satan, but are doing the things like Satan. He just draws the closest conclusion to the King of Tyre, by making the specific reference of him being in the garden of Eden; a place clearly the literal King of Tyre never visited.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Too much literalism applied to scriptures that aren't intended to be received literally, causes much misunderstanding.

    The example of Satan being the 'King of Tyre' is not a literal intent.

    Isaiah through those passages, is making use of a specific literally techique. It is not literalism, it is personification.

    He is personifying the King of Tyre liken to Satan and all things evil standing against God and the Israelites. He does the same type of personification with the King of Babylon, the King of Edom, the King of Egypt, etc. Isaiah isn't saying any of these 'are' Satan, but are doing the things like Satan. He just draws the closest conclusion to the King of Tyre, by making the specific reference of him being in the garden of Eden; a place clearly the literal King of Tyre never visited.
    Exactly. We have to understand that there are often malevolent spirits behind the actions, words or motives of an individual, and a number of times in the Scriptures, God has spoken to Satan as the power within an individual--as much as to the individual being used by Satan. God was speaking to the serpent in the garden, as complicit in facilitating man's rebellion, and pronouncing his punishment.

    But on a more profound level, He addressed Satan, as the power and spirit behind the serpent--foretelling his ultimate defeat. Satan, He said, would succeed in wounding the woman's seed--Christ, Who would survive to crush Satan's head. These events of course, happened just as foretold: the first at the crucifixion, and the other after the resurrection.

    Recall that Jesus actually called Peter "Satan" (Matt 16:23). Even though Peter meant well when He gently rebuked Jesus for talking about dying, Jesus immediately recognized the spirit of Satan crouched subtly behind Peter's words, diametrically opposed to the will of God. And I believe this speaking to both an individual and spirit behind the individual is in view, both in the case of the king of Tyre, and the king of Babylon. Ultimately, God speaks beyond the puppet, to the puppeteer.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    In verse 2 God specifically says "you are a man".

    I don't think that chapter is about an angel at all. It's about...the king of Tyre. Just as God said.
    The king of Tyre was definitely a man and his name was Hiram. However, the passage seems to also be referring to a cherub, which is definitely not a man. Why couldn't the passage be speaking of the king of Tyre but also the cherub who he was like and/or who influenced him to be the way he was? What is your understanding of the following passage:

    Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    So, who is the cherub who was created perfect in his ways and was in the garden of Eden? It can't be the king of Tyre since the king of Tyre was a man and not a cherub and also was never in the garden of Eden.

  7. #37

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146
    The king of Tyre was definitely a man and his name was Hiram. However, the passage seems to also be referring to a cherub, which is definitely not a man. Why couldn't the passage be speaking of the king of Tyre but also the cherub who he was like and/or who influenced him to be the way he was?
    Why can't the 'cherub' simply be a metaphor in a poetic diatribe, as the Prophets often had?

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Why can't the 'cherub' simply be a metaphor in a poetic diatribe, as the Prophets often had?
    I don't know what you mean so can you explain what you're talking about and maybe give an example or two? Thanks.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    The king of Tyre was definitely a man and his name was Hiram. However, the passage seems to also be referring to a cherub, which is definitely not a man. Why couldn't the passage be speaking of the king of Tyre but also the cherub who he was like and/or who influenced him to be the way he was? What is your understanding of the following passage:

    Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
    What's the preceding verse?

    28;12 take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say unto him...

    This whole diatribe is for a person, the king of Tyre. Why is God using terms like "you were in Eden...you were a cherub..etc"? Because that's who kings of the ancient world were. They had power over life and death, they lacked for nothing, they referred to themselves as "the king of kings" and so on.

    God is saying, "You had everything, you were all powerful, but you were bad. So you will have nothing".
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    What's the preceding verse?

    28;12 take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say unto him...

    This whole diatribe is for a person, the king of Tyre. Why is God using terms like "you were in Eden...you were a cherub..etc"? Because that's who kings of the ancient world were.
    What do you mean that's who they were? They were cherubs who were created perfectly in all their ways and were in the garden of Eden? Obviously, they were not so please explain what you are talking about here.

    They had power over life and death, they lacked for nothing, they referred to themselves as "the king of kings" and so on.
    It doesn't say that the king of Tyre thought of himself as a cherub who was perfect in his ways and was in the garden of Eden. It specifically refers to someone who was a cherub and was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him and was in the garden of Eden. So, it seems to me that either the king of Tyre was a perfect cherub who was in the garden of Eden (not possible since he was a man and not a cherub) or the king of Tyre was being compared to or was being influenced by a cherub who was once perfect but later sinned and who was in the garden of Eden.

  11. #41

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146
    I don't know what you mean so can you explain what you're talking about and maybe give an example or two? Thanks.
    If a prophetic metaphor is being interpreted as having a literal second meaning despite the completely obvious metaphoric use (I say 'completely obvious' because it's stated several times that Ezekiel is talking about the ruler of Tyre, who is 'but a man')...

    ... then who is to say we can't take the same approach anytime a metaphor or simile is being used in the Prophets? As examples: Ezekiel 16 is really about a woman who was once in God's favor, but then she committed a lot of sexual sin and fell out of favor. God really had No Mercy on Hosea's daughter. Daniel's vision actually was about a human being attacked by four monsters.

    It can't be 'context', because the context of Ezekiel 28 is judgment of the king of Tyre. It can't be 'genre', because the poetic, metaphoric, symbolic, hyperbolic genre of prophecy is being set aside for the sake of literalizing the 'cherub'.

    So other than simply assuming the 'cherub' must be a literal, double-meaning for the satan... why can't it simply be a metaphor for the former greatness of the king of Tyre, and that's all?

    'Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, "You were the signet of perfection... You were in Eden, the garden of God... You were an anointed cherub..."'
    Why is the use of metaphor such an impossibility, or if it is a possibility, why is it the secondary meaning of Ezekiel's lament?

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    What do you mean that's who they were? They were cherubs who were created perfectly in all their ways and were in the garden of Eden?
    That's how they saw themselves/referred to themselves, yes.

    Xerxes referred to himself as "king of kings", a term we would use for God. Ramses means "Born of the sun god". Etc etc. They saw themselves as divine figures. So that's the language the prophet is using.
    It doesn't say that the king of Tyre thought of himself as a cherub who was perfect in his ways and was in the garden of Eden. It specifically refers to someone who was a cherub and was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him and was in the garden of Eden. So, it seems to me that either the king of Tyre was a perfect cherub who was in the garden of Eden (not possible since he was a man and not a cherub) or the king of Tyre was being compared to or was being influenced by a cherub who was once perfect but later sinned and who was in the garden of Eden.
    Or it's poetic language that you're reading hyper-literally.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    If a prophetic metaphor is being interpreted as having a literal second meaning despite the completely obvious metaphoric use (I say 'completely obvious' because it's stated several times that Ezekiel is talking about the ruler of Tyre, who is 'but a man')...

    ... then who is to say we can't take the same approach anytime a metaphor or simile is being used in the Prophets? As examples: Ezekiel 16 is really about a woman who was once in God's favor, but then she committed a lot of sexual sin and fell out of favor. God really had No Mercy on Hosea's daughter. Daniel's vision actually was about a human being attacked by four monsters.

    It can't be 'context', because the context of Ezekiel 28 is judgment of the king of Tyre. It can't be 'genre', because the poetic, metaphoric, symbolic, hyperbolic genre of prophecy is being set aside for the sake of literalizing the 'cherub'.

    So other than simply assuming the 'cherub' must be a literal, double-meaning for the satan... why can't it simply be a metaphor for the former greatness of the king of Tyre, and that's all?



    Why is the use of metaphor such an impossibility, or if it is a possibility, why is it the secondary meaning of Ezekiel's lament?
    If that was the case the what would be the point of mentioning that he was in the garden of Eden? It seems to me that would be a meaningless and pointless piece of information if it's not referring at all to an actual cherub who was once perfect and was in the garden of Eden. It seems to me that the mention of him having been in the garden of Eden was for the purpose of identifying the cherub. For what other reason would that piece of information be mentioned?

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Xerxes referred to himself as "king of kings", a term we would use for God. Ramses means "Born of the sun god". Etc etc. They saw themselves as divine figures. So that's the language the prophet is using.
    I'll ask you the same question I just asked Mark. What would be the point of mentioning that he was in the garden of Eden if it's not comparing him to and/or saying he was influenced by an actual cherub who was in the garden of Eden?

    Or it's poetic language that you're reading hyper-literally.
    If I was reading the text hyper-literally I would conclude that the king of Tyre himself was a cherub who was once perfect in his ways and who once was in the garden of Eden. But I'm not saying that. I wonder if you are actually reading what I'm saying or just assuming things about how I interpret the passage?

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    If that was the case the what would be the point of mentioning that he was in the garden of Eden? It seems to me that would be a meaningless and pointless piece of information if it's not referring at all to an actual cherub who was once perfect and was in the garden of Eden.
    Again, kings in the ancient world lacked nothing in a time when most people went hungry all the time. They lived in "the garden of Eden".
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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