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Thread: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

  1. #46
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I'll ask you the same question I just asked Mark. What would be the point of mentioning that he was in the garden of Eden if it's not comparing him to and/or saying he was influenced by an actual cherub who was in the garden of Eden?
    Already answered above.

    If I was reading the text hyper-literally I would conclude that the king of Tyre himself was a cherub who was once perfect in his ways and who once was in the garden of Eden. But I'm not saying that. I wonder if you are actually reading what I'm saying or just assuming things about how I interpret the passage?
    A trifle touchy today.

    God tells the prophet to tell the king of Tyre "you were a cherub in Eden blah blah blah". Why would the prophet be saying this to the king of Tyre if it weren't about him?

  2. #47
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Again, kings in the ancient world lacked nothing in a time when most people went hungry all the time. They lived in "the garden of Eden".
    Then why doesn't it say "you are in the garden of Eden" instead of saying "you were in the garden of Eden"?

  3. #48
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Then why doesn't it say "you are in the garden of Eden" instead of saying "you were in the garden of Eden"?
    The whole speech is past tense, including the punishment: verse 18 therefore have I brought forth a fire from the midst of thee, it hath devoured thee, and I have turned thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

    Since Satan is alive and well, this can't be him, can it?

  4. #49

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146
    If that was the case the what would be the point of mentioning that he was in the garden of Eden? It seems to me that would be a meaningless and pointless piece of information if it's not referring at all to an actual cherub who was once perfect and was in the garden of Eden.
    Or you're interpreting it far too literally. You're not reading Ezekiel's words in the context of when and where it was written: poetic, hyperbolic language was commonplace to Ezekiel's time and people. I would say that if you think it couldn't be a metaphor because metaphoric details would be 'meaningless and pointless', then you simply don't understand poetry, let alone that the ancient Israelites were very poetic people when it came to their prophecies and literature.

    Just because a 'cherub' is mentioned, or the 'garden of Eden', doesn't mean Ezekiel had a literal cherub in Eden in mind, anymore than he had an adulterous woman who commits bestiality in mind in his other prophecies. 'Meaningless and pointless' details if he's not talking about an actual women who has 'intimate relations' with horses and donkeys.

    This post goes into detail about the metaphor.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    A trifle touchy today.
    Not at all. You accused me of reading the text hyper-literally when that is not the case, so I couldn't help but wonder if you really read what I said carefully.

    God tells the prophet to tell the king of Tyre "you were a cherub in Eden blah blah blah". Why would the prophet be saying this to the king of Tyre if it weren't about him?
    I didn't say it wasn't at all about him but it appears to me to be about both him and a cherub who was once in the garden of Eden and who was once perfect in his ways but then iniquity was found in him. When it talks about the cherub having once been perfect in his ways I take that literally because it says that was true of him until iniquity was found in him. In what way could that be speaking of the king of Tyre himself? You seem to think that it's speaking of how the king of Tyre thought of himself but when did he ever stop thinking he was perfect in his ways? The text indicates that the cherub only was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him and then he was no longer perfect in his ways. I don't see how that could relate directly to the king of Tyre himself in any way.

  6. #51
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    I didn't say it wasn't at all about him but it appears to me to be about both him and a cherub who was once in the garden of Eden and who was once perfect in his ways but then iniquity was found in him. When it talks about the cherub having once been perfect in his ways I take that literally because it says that was true of him until iniquity was found in him. In what way could that be speaking of the king of Tyre himself? You seem to think that it's speaking of how the king of Tyre thought of himself but when did he ever stop thinking he was perfect in his ways? The text indicates that the cherub only was perfect in his ways until iniquity was found in him and then he was no longer perfect in his ways. I don't see how that could relate directly to the king of Tyre himself in any way.
    If it isn't about the king of Tyre, why is Ezekiel saying it to him? Makes no sense.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Or you're interpreting it far too literally. You're not reading Ezekiel's words in the context of when and where it was written: poetic, hyperbolic language was commonplace to Ezekiel's time and people.
    Who told you that I'm not taking those things into consideration? Yes, I am. Just because I don't interpret it the way you do doesn't mean I'm not considering all of the possibilities.

    I would say that if you think it couldn't be a metaphor because metaphoric details would be 'meaningless and pointless', then you simply don't understand poetry, let alone that the ancient Israelites were very poetic people when it came to their prophecies and literature.

    Just because a 'cherub' is mentioned, or the 'garden of Eden', doesn't mean Ezekiel had a literal cherub in Eden in mind, anymore than he had an adulterous woman who commits bestiality in mind in his other prophecies. 'Meaningless and pointless' details if he's not talking about an actual women who has 'intimate relations' with horses and donkeys.

    This post goes into detail about the metaphor.
    Sorry, but I'm just not finding your explanation to be convincing at all. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the meaning of this passage. I don't think it's crucial for determining the answer to the original question of this thread, anyway. Everything God created was good, so that would include Satan as well.

  8. #53
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    If it isn't about the king of Tyre, why is Ezekiel saying it to him? Makes no sense.
    To show him what was going to happen to the one he was behaving like (the fallen cherub - Satan) so it could have been a warning to him that he would suffer a similar fate as the fallen cherub if he didn't change his ways.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    To show him what was going to happen to the one he was behaving like (the fallen cherub - Satan) so it could have been a warning to him that he would suffer a similar fate as the fallen cherub if he didn't change his ways.
    Except that as I pointed out, the whole chapter is past tense. It already happened. And that makes no sense, Satan is still alive and well according to you guys.

  10. #55

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146
    Sorry, but I'm just not finding your explanation to be convincing at all.
    What specifically don't you agree with?

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Except that as I pointed out, the whole chapter is past tense. It already happened. And that makes no sense, Satan is still alive and well according to you guys.
    No, it is not all past tense. I don't know where you are getting that from. Look at all the times it says "I will" and "shall be" here:

    Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

  12. #57
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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    No, it is not all past tense. I don't know where you are getting that from. Look at all the times it says "I will" and "shall be" here:
    more crappy translating. it's killing me.

    The NIV gets it right here. All past tense.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    What specifically don't you agree with?
    All of it. I've already made it clear where I am in disagreement with you and we've already discussed this and still disagree, so I'd just as soon agree to disagree than repeat ourselves.

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    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    more crappy translating. it's killing me.

    The NIV gets it right here. All past tense.
    And you were accusing me of being touchy?

    If it is all past tense and is all about the king of Tyre himself then that would mean he would already have been "reduced...to ashes on the ground" (Eze 28:18) at that point. So, he would have been dead already at that point. Can you explain how the prophet could have told the king of Tyre what is written in Ezekiel 28:12-19 if he was dead at the time?

    Also, it's interesting that you would put that much faith in the NIV when you think the NIV translation of Matthew 1:1 - Revelation 22:21 is all wrong.

  15. #60

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146
    All of it. I've already made it clear where I am in disagreement with you and we've already discussed this and still disagree, so I'd just as soon agree to disagree than repeat ourselves.
    You disagree with all of it? You disagree that Ezekiel is being told to prophesy about the king of Tyre? You don't see any parallels between chapters 27 and 28? You don't see any parallels between 28.1-10 and 28.11-19? You disagree that it's even possible the 'cherub' is a metaphor in Ezekiel's rebuke of the king of Tyre?

    I'm just trying to understand how literally and how extensive you mean 'all of it'.

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