Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 129

Thread: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    299

    Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    I have taught satan as a created being, evil from the beginning and a tool of God. However, never in my church, only in Bible studies (since my denomination thinks its heresy). I have also taught him as Lucifer the fallen angel when teaching on pride and such (the common thought).

    My pastors tell me that teaching satan as a created being and not a fallen Lucifer, besides being Scripturally wrong, delves into the question of free will. In other words, if satan was created as satan, he never had a chance, and that does not mesh with the belief that God gives everyone, including celestial beings, free will.

    I don't want to get into the free will aspect of the discussion. However, I would love to find out what others think.

    By the way, I have found about twice as many verses supporting satan as created evil vs. fallen angel, but that may be up to interpretation too.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    273

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    From what I've gathered by listening to sermons is he was an angel assigned to the duty of relaying the worship of the earth to God. He began to take some of it for himself and stated he "Would be like the most high"

    I've been taught that angels are sinless but I haven't heard they don't have free will. I've heard they have thoughts, emotions and feelings. Knowing what I know about God there were contingencies from the beginning for a world without a devil. Just like had adam not sinned we likely wouldn't have had a tribulation. I think the most interesting thing about angels is they're not provided salvation, we are.

    I don't have any scripture off hand to back up what I've said but I can certainly look into it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    8,173
    Blog Entries
    3

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    I have taught satan as a created being, evil from the beginning and a tool of God. However, never in my church, only in Bible studies (since my denomination thinks its heresy). I have also taught him as Lucifer the fallen angel when teaching on pride and such (the common thought).

    My pastors tell me that teaching satan as a created being and not a fallen Lucifer, besides being Scripturally wrong, delves into the question of free will. In other words, if satan was created as satan, he never had a chance, and that does not mesh with the belief that God gives everyone, including celestial beings, free will.

    I don't want to get into the free will aspect of the discussion. However, I would love to find out what others think.

    By the way, I have found about twice as many verses supporting satan as created evil vs. fallen angel, but that may be up to interpretation too.
    I think this will answer your question.

    Ezekiel 28:11-15(KJV)
    11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    seated in Christ at the right hand of my Father
    Posts
    2,344

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    The OP asks whether Satan was a created being or a fallen angel? He is both.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    299

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    I think this will answer your question.

    Ezekiel 28:11-15(KJV)
    11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
    13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
    14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    That's a good support for satan as a fallen angel, because of the word cherub. But other than the use of cherub, everything here seems to point to Adam: he was full of wisdom, perfect in beauty, he was in the Garden of God, all precious stones were his covering there, and it says he was created. Satan was in the garden too, but he wasn't placed there by God, he kinda slivered in, or walked if he had feet before the curse on him.

    Cherub is the sticking point, perhaps someone can elaborate on if this could refer to anything other than an angelic being.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    299

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    The OP asks whether Satan was a created being or a fallen angel? He is both.

    W
    the question is: was he created as satan or as an angel that would later become known as satan.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The beautiful farm in the center of heaven!
    Posts
    3,542
    Blog Entries
    12

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Angels are created beings and some fell. The leader of the pack is Lucifer who is also "called" Satan.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  8. #8

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    'Lucifer' is the Latin translation of the Hebrew word 'heylel', from Isaiah 14.12. 'Heylel' literally means 'boasting one' ('heylel' comes from 'halal', a verb meaning 'to praise' or 'to boast'; hence 'hallelu-Yah'). The text states very clearly that it is a diatribe against the king of Babylon (probably Nebuchadnezzar), a man full of arrogance, hence the name 'boasting one'. The satan was never named 'lucifer'.

    'Satan' means 'accuser' or 'adversary'. When he appears in the Bible, he is a tempter and accuser of sin, and functions completely within God's constraint.

    Compare 2 Samuel 24.1 and 1 Chronicles 21.1; God directed the satan to 'incite David'.

    In the book of Job, the satan surveys the earth to tempt and accuse of sin, and only steps into action when God permits him to do so.

    In Zechariah, the satan brings accusations against Jeshua the high priest, but is rebuked because Jeshua is 'a brand plucked from the fire', i.e. Jeshua was 'clothed with filthy garments' but was given 'pure vestments' to wear.

    The New Testament describes the satan in a progressively negative sense.

    In the gospels, the satan seeks to tempt Jesus into sin, directly in the wilderness (Matthew 4), and indirectly through Peter (Matthew 16.23) and Judas (Luke 22.3). The satan also seeks to 'sift Peter like wheat' (Luke 22.31), to which Jesus prays that Peter's faith will not fail (note: Jesus does not say that Peter will not be 'sifted', only that he prays Peter will endure).

    In Acts, the satan successfully tempts Hananiah and Sapphira to sin. Late in the book the satan works in 'darkness'.

    In Romans 16.20, he is the temptation of the false teachers 16.17-19.

    In 1 Corinthians, being 'delivered' to the satan can be a part of a process that 'destroys the flesh' but 'saves the spirit'. In 2 Corinthians, he is once more the tempter. He disguises himself as a messenger of 'light', and his 'servants' disguise themselves as 'righteous'. Later, though, 'a messenger of the satan' is a tool used by God to keep Paul from being prideful.

    In 1 Thessalonians, the satan hinders Paul's visitations. In 2 Thessalonians, there is a 'lawless one' who works by 'the activity of the satan', creating deception.

    In 1 Timothy, the satan is again part of a process for disciplining people. Later, 'some have already strayed after the satan'.

    Lastly, in the Revelation, the satan is the chief antagonist, working behind the persecution of Israel and the Church, leading worldwide deception and sin.



    In a systematic view, the satan is a tempter, tester, and destroyer. What he does can lead to good (those who suffer his temptations and learn from their mistakes) and evil (those who give in to temptation and fall away from God).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    299

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Angels are created beings and some fell. The leader of the pack is Lucifer who is also "called" Satan.
    the problem that I have with the name Lucifer is that it is not found in the Scripture. It was added by KJV, but the name is not an English version of a Hebrew name for Lucifer, like we say Jesus for the Hebrew name Yeshua. I think the word might be an adjective and not a proper noun, something in the Hebrew like bright morning star or star of the morning (which interestingly is what Jesus is called twice in the New Testament).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Buffalo, New York, United States
    Posts
    299

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    'Lucifer' is the Latin translation of the Hebrew word 'heylel', from Isaiah 14.12. 'Heylel' literally means 'boasting one' ('heylel' comes from 'halal', a verb meaning 'to praise' or 'to boast'; hence 'hallelu-Yah'). The text states very clearly that it is a diatribe against the king of Babylon (probably Nebuchadnezzar), a man full of arrogance, hence the name 'boasting one'. The satan was never named 'lucifer'.

    'Satan' means 'accuser' or 'adversary'. When he appears in the Bible, he is a tempter and accuser of sin, and functions completely within God's constraint.

    Compare 2 Samuel 24.1 and 1 Chronicles 21.1; God directed the satan to 'incite David'.

    In the book of Job, the satan surveys the earth to tempt and accuse of sin, and only steps into action when God permits him to do so.

    In Zechariah, the satan brings accusations against Jeshua the high priest, but is rebuked because Jeshua is 'a brand plucked from the fire', i.e. Jeshua was 'clothed with filthy garments' but was given 'pure vestments' to wear.

    The New Testament describes the satan in a progressively negative sense.

    In the gospels, the satan seeks to tempt Jesus into sin, directly in the wilderness (Matthew 4), and indirectly through Peter (Matthew 16.23) and Judas (Luke 22.3). The satan also seeks to 'sift Peter like wheat' (Luke 22.31), to which Jesus prays that Peter's faith will not fail (note: Jesus does not say that Peter will not be 'sifted', only that he prays Peter will endure).

    In Acts, the satan successfully tempts Hananiah and Sapphira to sin. Late in the book the satan works in 'darkness'.

    In Romans 16.20, he is the temptation of the false teachers 16.17-19.

    In 1 Corinthians, being 'delivered' to the satan can be a part of a process that 'destroys the flesh' but 'saves the spirit'. In 2 Corinthians, he is once more the tempter. He disguises himself as a messenger of 'light', and his 'servants' disguise themselves as 'righteous'. Later, though, 'a messenger of the satan' is a tool used by God to keep Paul from being prideful.

    In 1 Thessalonians, the satan hinders Paul's visitations. In 2 Thessalonians, there is a 'lawless one' who works by 'the activity of the satan', creating deception.

    In 1 Timothy, the satan is again part of a process for disciplining people. Later, 'some have already strayed after the satan'.

    Lastly, in the Revelation, the satan is the chief antagonist, working behind the persecution of Israel and the Church, leading worldwide deception and sin.



    In a systematic view, the satan is a tempter, tester, and destroyer. What he does can lead to good (those who suffer his temptations and learn from their mistakes) and evil (those who give in to temptation and fall away from God).

    I think I agree with all of your post, but what do you do with the cherub in the Ezekiel passage, that's my stumbling block. And if its not satan being referred to, who is it (besides the literal tyrant he was speaking about)?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    4,763

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    the question is: was he created as satan or as an angel that would later become known as satan.
    All beings are of God's creation, thus Satan is of God's created. Second comment is that I'm not convinced that Satan is an angel.... Third comment is the Bible calls satan a lot of nicknames, from a snake to roaring lion to dragon to appearing like an angel of light. But in any event, he is both a created being and a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
    "Enter by the Narrow Gate...
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way...
    ... there are few who find it."


    -----------------------------------------------

    * All Scripture when quoted is taken from:

    The New American Standard Bible®,
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973,
    1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
    Used by permission." (www.Lockman.org)

    Italics, bold, color and/or underline are added for emphasis


  12. #12

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci
    I think I agree with all of your post, but what do you do with the cherub in the Ezekiel passage, that's my stumbling block. And if its not satan being referred to, who is it (besides the literal tyrant he was speaking about)?
    Ezekiel 28 is a passage about the fall into sin of the king of Tyre, another arrogant king. The following points are placed in quote blocks because, for some reason, the forum has problems formatting lists.
    1. Ezekiel receives a revelation from God.
    2. The king of Tyre is self-deifying. He is 'but a man', whose heart is so full of arrogance that he thinks he is a god.
    3. He has immense wisdom...
    4. and through his wisdom he became wealthy...
    5. and through his wisdom the trade of Tyre increased, which led to his arrogant heart.
    6. So, because in his heart he thinks he is a god...
    7. God will send foreign nations to crush the king of Tyre, destroying the beauty of his wisdom, and his splendor.
    8. The foreign nations will kill him.
    9. Will he claim to be a god when he is being killed? He is 'but a man', not a god.
    10. He will die 'by the hands of foreigners'.
    11. Ezekiel's revelation continues.
    12. In metaphor the king of Tyre is like God's royal seal of approval, full of wisdom and beauty.
    13. In metaphor he resided in God's paradise, decked out in wealth.
    14. In metaphor he is like a cherub on God's mountain.
    15. He used to be blameless, but he became unrighteous...
    16. because of his trade. The great amount of trade Tyre got because of him made violent and sinful. God destroys him because of his sinfulness.
    17. His heart became proud of his beauty. He corrupted his wisdom and splendor. God withdrew his favor, exposing him to other kings.
    18. His great sinfulness and his unrighteous trade led to God destroying him.
    19. The nations who watched were appalled.
    First, keep in mind the entirety of chapters 26-27, which are about the fall of the city of Tyre. Now Ezekiel is being told to focus specifically on the wicked king of Tyre. Note the repeated parallels between those chapters and this one:
    • Tyre claims to be perfect (27.3), the king of Tyre claims to be a god (28.2)
    • Tyre is in the heart of the seas (27.4), the king of Tyre claims to be 'in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas'
    • Tyre is perfect and beautiful (27.4), the king of Tyre is full of wisdom and beauty (28.3,12)
    • Tyre is filled with great trade (27.5-25), the king of Tyre has abundant trade (28.16)
    • Tyre is destroyed and the nations and kings who see it are appalled (27.35-36), the king of Tyre is destroyed and exposed to kings and nations that are appalled (28.19)
    The parallels continue straight through the 'cherub' verse. The 'cherub' is the king of Tyre who is 'but a man'.Second, notice the repeated parallels between Ezekiel 28.1-10 and 28.11-19 (color-coded above):
    • both sections begin with God commanding Ezekiel to prophesy specifically about the king of Tyre (verses 1-2; 11-12)
    • both begin with a declaration of the king's greatness, specifically attributed to his trade, as it was described in chapter 27 (3-5; 12-14)
    • both declare the king's self-deifying pride and arrogance because of his greatness (2,5-6; 15-17)
    • both declare that God will destroy the king because of his arrogance (7-10; 16-19)
    • both are destroyed in the presence/sight of other nations/kings (7,9-10; 17-19)
    Within Ezekiel's prophecy about the king of Tyre, the 'cherub' is purely a metaphor. The 'garden of God' is purely a metaphor. The king of Tyre is called a 'cherub', poetically described his wisdom and beauty and favor with God. The king of Tyre is said to live in the 'garden of God', poetically describing the beauty and splendor and wealth of his city. The 'cherub in Eden' is entirely a metaphor to show just how far the king of Tyre has fallen from God's favor.Ezekiel is not talking about the satan, he is talking about the king of Tyre, 'but a man'.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Under the Blood of the Lamb
    Posts
    6,312
    Blog Entries
    16

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luciano Vinci View Post
    That's a good support for satan as a fallen angel, because of the word cherub. But other than the use of cherub, everything here seems to point to Adam: he was full of wisdom, perfect in beauty, he was in the Garden of God, all precious stones were his covering there, and it says he was created.
    One question: Assuming Adam was naked, how were those precious stones attached? Seriously, it sounds to me more like possibly the stones on the breastplate of a high priest--or the cherub equivalent. Just a thought.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

  14. #14

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Yea I have to agree with Sojourner, Not sure how you get Adam being the subject of those verses. Satan was in Eden and was perfect in all his ways, so im in the camp of his fall happening afterward, therefore whatever his role intended in creation it must have had an earthly element to it.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wherever the Lord places me
    Posts
    42,622

    Re: Satan: Created being or fallen angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    I think this will answer your question.

    Ezekiel 28:11-15(KJV)
    11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus,
    Satan was the king of Tyre?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Is the Angel of the Lord a created being?
    By ross3421 in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Oct 2nd 2011, 06:23 AM
  2. Where does it say Satan is an angel?
    By IsItLove? in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: Feb 8th 2010, 05:48 AM
  3. Fallen (a poem about satan)
    By paidforinfull in forum Poetry
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Jun 25th 2009, 11:33 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •