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Thread: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

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    Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    The ultimate question associated with the concept of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is whether a person who is 'being saved' can somehow lose their salvation.

    It would seem that the very definition of apostasy is that one who is being saved turns from their faith in such a way that they are no longer being saved. So, if that be the defn of apostasy, and if apostasy exists, then OSAS must be false.

    What evidence is there for apostasy in Scripture? Here's three key passages:

    1 Timothy 4:
    1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
    6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.7
    16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
    2 Peter 2:
    2 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, b3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
    14 having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15 forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16 but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
    17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “ A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
    2 Thessalonians 2

    1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
    13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
    One can argue on the OSAS side that those who fall are not already saved. Perhaps the church is filled with those who fool even themselves as to whether they have saving faith. The great apostasy, then, is merely the falling away of those who were not truly saved.

    However, these passages seem to speak of falling away from the faith. You can't fall away if you don't already have the faith. You don't barely escape corruption by the knowledge of the truth, only to fall away from it, if you haven't escaped it and come to have the faith.

    On the other hand, the 2 Th 2 passage seems to indicate those who are perishing who did not love the truth are those whom the delusion stops from having the faith, as if they were never saved to begin with.

    What is clear is that we have a few different groups here:

    1. Those who stand firm and don't fall away from the faith.
    2. Those who had the faith but did not stand firm in the face of enticement or deception, and fell away.
    3. Those who never had the faith to begin with, but are prevented from acquiring it by delusion and love of wickedness.

    It is that second group that troubles us. It is they who the OSAS crowd disowns. It is they who the NOSAS crowd warns against falling away, citing the great number of Scripture passages that warn about it.

    The question remains, is there anything different about the first and second groups inherent in the quality or quantity of their faith? Is there something about the first group that makes them apostasy-proof? Or, are they just believers who heeded the warnings against apostasy and through perserverant struggle retained their faith in the face of all temptation, trial, afflication, loss and suffering?

    But this raises an important definitive issue:

    What does it mean to retain the faith? For instance, one can go on believing in God while continuing to sin. Would that be saving faith?

    So, what does it look like for one to retain saving faith in the face of deception, temptation, trial and so on?

    If we give in and sin, does that mean we have lost our salvation? If so, can we get it back?

    All these questions are at the very core of what it means to live the Christian life. If we cannot answer them with certainty, we are at risk of falling away, and not being saved.

    But what would happen if we erred on the side of requiring too much of ourselves in order to be saved and stay saved? -- say, if we required works on top of our faith in order to be saved or stay saved? (if that were, really, "too much"). Does that vitiate our saving faith? How about a requirement of sinlessness after we are "saved"?
    Last edited by Eyelog; Jul 25th 2012 at 12:32 AM.
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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post

    What evidence is there for apostasy in Scripture? Here's three key passages:





    Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


    I'm sort of thinking this is meaning apostasy as well. The fact that it has a but after verse 12, this seems to indicate that maybe not everyone will endure to the end, only those that do, the same shall be saved. I would think to endure to the end of something, this would require that one is involved in what specifically has to be endured until the end of.

    As far as rest of your post, you make some very interesting points, well worth discussing. I think I'll watch this thread for a bit and see how the discussions go. I'm NOSAS, yet I rarely get involved in OSAS vs NOSAS debates. But I like the way you composed your arguments. Very interesting.

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    I don't believe in OSAS. But there are many factors that can come into play. I know an awful lot of people who claim to be christian, however the things they do would make you think twice about it. They want God in times of need, but when confronted about said lifestyle they come back with 'times are different'. They don't go to church, read their bibles, etc...they want 'fire insurance'. I also know some who are flat out athiests, so no, obviously they aren't saved. You also have those of us who are like the prodigal son. He had an inheritance, left, but came back. Then there are those who have something awful happen to them or a loved one and they totally walk away. I think they had some faith, but it was weak. I don't believe in works to get/have faith, but we are commanded to walk out our faith. Honestly I blame much of the church. You can be an evangelist and go to Africa and claim thousands got saved, but how often do we follow up? Are we continuing to teach them the word? Churches often have altar calls and people get saved...but we never preach about what it REALLY means(I grew up in a church but never understood exactly why Jesus was crucified!!)...it seems 'sin' has become a bad word in the church. We aren't to go around pointing out everyone's sin, but now we are afraid to talk about it in fear of offending someone. Many christians don't look or act much different from the world. It really is a complex issue and its something we need to talk about more.
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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    God knows who is saved.

    I have yet to run my race to the finish.

    1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Well, we can define "Apostasy" in a way that all will agree is correct and then we can get to the bottom of this issue

    Can a person who is NEVER in the faith, become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)

    Can a person who is IN the faith, become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)

    An answer to these questions will help MUCH!
    Slug1--out

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Well, we can define "Apostasy" in a way that all will agree is correct and then we can get to the bottom of this issue

    Can a person who is NEVER in the faith, become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)

    Can a person who is IN the faith, become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)

    An answer to these questions will help MUCH!



    I predict that the way some folks reason, some of them will find ways to answer those questions in such a way, where it's not as agreeable with everyone as you are thinking. Especially pertaining to the 2nd question.


    Maybe you should have added a 3rd question as well.

    Can a person who is IN the faith, NEVER become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)

    Putting these 2 question side by side then.


    1. Can a person who is IN the faith, become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)

    2. Can a person who is IN the faith, NEVER become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)

    The way it looks to me, if one didn't answer both questions correctly, they would then be contradicting themselves.

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    The ultimate question associated with the concept of Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) is whether a person who is 'being saved' can somehow lose their salvation.

    It would seem that the very definition of apostasy is that one who is being saved turns from their faith in such a way that they are no longer being saved. So, if that be the defn of apostasy, and if apostasy exists, then OSAS must be false.

    What evidence is there for apostasy in Scripture? Here's three key passages:

    2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “ A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
    This passage in particular seems to indicate that a saved person can lose their salvation and return to the state they were in before they "escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". I think the reason it says they would be in a worse state than before in that case is because once someone falls away they cannot be led back to repentance again, as the following passage indicates:

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Going back to 2 Peter 2:20, who else but a saved person would be described as having "escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"? I don't see how that could be describing an unsaved person. If it's describing a saved person then it's saying that a saved person can potentially get entangled again in "the defilements of the world". And they can end up in a worse state then they were in before being saved. So, that means by being entangled again in "the defilements of the world" it would mean they lost their faith and no longer are saved.

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    2. Can a person who is IN the faith, NEVER become "apostate"? (yes or no and why)
    Well, in relation to your question, if the way I asked was answered as a NO and the reason was because a person CAN'T stop believing in Christ and fall away, then they have answered in a way that is in relation to your question.

    The answer would be questionable because then only a person who is NEVER in the faith is the ONLY possible person who can "become" apostate but then that won't align with scriptures that tell us those who are apostate are those ONCE in the faith.

    That's like saying that those who were once fruitful and became UNfruitful were never in the faith... it just don't add up in relation to and in alignment with scripture. A person who is NOT in the faith can never BE fruitful for them to later become UNfruitful... see what I mean?

    It would be in relation to and in alignment to the OSAS doctrine to say they were never in the faith but we're trying to discuss the truth of the scriptures, not the false teachings of the OSAS doctrine.
    Slug1--out

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    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    The idea that those who are part of the apostasy were not believers to begin with goes against what Paul says in regards to the idea of who is being caught away. The clues are found in 1 Thess. 4:16 and 17 where Paul indicates who will be part of the “caught away” event. He specifically says “we who are alive and remain will be caught up.” Paul makes a distinction here between those who are alive and those who remain. In order to be caught away you have to be included in both categories. You have to be both alive and you have to remain. Remaining is not the same thing as being alive (those who are apostate are alive). The question then is what is Paul referring to when he says those who remain? By definition "remain" in this context means something that is left over from a larger group. In 2 Thess. 2:1 and 2 Paul says that we will not be caught up until after the apostasy (falling away) takes place; those who remain are those who are left over after that apostasy has taken place. They are the remaining or who are left over from the original group which included those who will become apostate and those who will remain. Both groups; those who are apostate and those who remain are from the same original group. This original group had to be a group of believers because those who are left (those who remain) are believers. Believing did not come after the apostasy. Apostasy came after believing. Remaining by the way is referring to remaining in the faith.
    Last edited by Old man; Jul 24th 2012 at 10:26 PM. Reason: added content
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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    The idea that those who are part of the apostasy were not believers to begin with goes against what Paul says in regards to the idea of who is being caught away. The clues are found in 1 Thess. 4:16 and 17 where Paul indicates who will be part of the “caught away” event. He specifically says “we who are alive and remain will be caught up.” Paul makes a distinction here between those who are alive and those who remain. In order to be caught away you have to be included in both categories. You have to be both alive and you have to remain. Remaining is not the same thing as being alive (those who are apostate are alive). The question then is what is Paul referring to when he says those who remain? By definition "remain" in this context means something that is left over from a larger group. In 2 Thess. 2:1 and 2 Paul says that we will not be caught up until after the apostasy (falling away) takes place; those who remain are those who are left over after that apostasy has taken place. They are the remaining or who are left over from the original group which included those who will become apostate and those who will remain. Both groups; those who are apostate and those who remain are from the same original group. This original group had to be a group of believers because those who are left (those who remain) are believers. Believing did not come after the apostasy. Apostasy came after believing. Remaining by the way is referring to remaining in the faith.


    I had never thought about it like that before, how you connect those that remain, which started out as a singular group which ends up as two distinct groups in the end. I've always assumed the apostates were once part of the group that gets saved, but I had never pondered the connection to those remaining. Very interesting post. I like the way you reasoned all of that.

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    The idea that those who are part of the apostasy were not believers to begin with goes against what Paul says in regards to the idea of who is being caught away. The clues are found in 1 Thess. 4:16 and 17 where Paul indicates who will be part of the “caught away” event. He specifically says “we who are alive and remain will be caught up.” Paul makes a distinction here between those who are alive and those who remain. In order to be caught away you have to be included in both categories. You have to be both alive and you have to remain. Remaining is not the same thing as being alive (those who are apostate are alive). The question then is what is Paul referring to when he says those who remain? By definition "remain" in this context means something that is left over from a larger group. In 2 Thess. 2:1 and 2 Paul says that we will not be caught up until after the apostasy (falling away) takes place; those who remain are those who are left over after that apostasy has taken place. They are the remaining or who are left over from the original group which included those who will become apostate and those who will remain. Both groups; those who are apostate and those who remain are from the same original group. This original group had to be a group of believers because those who are left (those who remain) are believers. Believing did not come after the apostasy. Apostasy came after believing. Remaining by the way is referring to remaining in the faith.
    Well put Old Man, well put.

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    1. Those who stand firm and don't fall away from the faith.
    2. Those who had the faith but did not stand firm in the face of enticement or deception, and fell away.
    3. Those who never had the faith to begin with, but are prevented from acquiring it by delusion and love of wickedness.

    It is that second group that troubles us. It is they who the OSAS crowd disowns. It is they who the NOSAS crowd warns against falling away, citing the great number of Scripture passages that warn about it.
    You purposely or unwittingly used the word "faith" in your questions. Well done. But the title containing OSAS does not contain "faith" but "saved".

    Notice that in all discussions on this matter that the proponents hardly ever define “saved.” There are quite a number of meanings for the word “saved” in scripture. But a Christian is one who has believed in, and confessed, Jesus Christ – that He is the Son of God and has, by His completed work of incarnation, human life, human death and human resurrection, satisfied the righteous requirements of God. The result of this believing and confessing is Rebirth. Regeneration in the bible stands on two pillars.
    1. A man is born anew by the Holy Spirit and thus God becomes his source and Father
    2. A man is partaker of the divine (God’s) nature (2nd Pet.1:4)

    The questions then become;
    1. Who or what power can un-birth this man from God and remove his sonship, and who or what power can rip his divine nature away?
    2. If this rebirth is by believing (faith), how can it be rescinded by works?

    To answer these questions you will have to show that John.6:37-40 has a loophole.

    “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    You will have to show that "by no means" is wrong
    You will have to show that "all" is not all
    You will have to show that "nothing" is not nothing
    You will have to show that "everlasting" is not everlasting

    If one can answer that satisfactorily from scripture, then we can proceed to the next question; “ It is obvious from scripture that a believer can fall away, so what is it that he/she falls away from?”

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You purposely or unwittingly used the word "faith" in your questions. Well done. But the title containing OSAS does not contain "faith" but "saved".

    Notice that in all discussions on this matter that the proponents hardly ever define “saved.” There are quite a number of meanings for the word “saved” in scripture. But a Christian is one who has believed in, and confessed, Jesus Christ – that He is the Son of God and has, by His completed work of incarnation, human life, human death and human resurrection, satisfied the righteous requirements of God. The result of this believing and confessing is Rebirth. Regeneration in the bible stands on two pillars.
    1. A man is born anew by the Holy Spirit and thus God becomes his source and Father
    2. A man is partaker of the divine (God’s) nature (2nd Pet.1:4)

    The questions then become;
    1. Who or what power can un-birth this man from God and remove his sonship, and who or what power can rip his divine nature away?
    2. If this rebirth is by believing (faith), how can it be rescinded by works?

    To answer these questions you will have to show that John.6:37-40 has a loophole.

    “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

    You will have to show that "by no means" is wrong
    You will have to show that "all" is not all
    You will have to show that "nothing" is not nothing
    You will have to show that "everlasting" is not everlasting

    If one can answer that satisfactorily from scripture, then we can proceed to the next question; “ It is obvious from scripture that a believer can fall away, so what is it that he/she falls away from?”
    There does not have to be a loophole in John 6. All we have to do is understand what the verses really mean and what they don't mean. While we would like to take them as a promise of our salvation, regardless of our actions on this Earth, that is not what they are. We still have the requirement to remain faithful to God. When we remain faithful, we have the promise.

    Jesus promised to never forsake us. Scripture tells us that nobody can snatch us from His hand. Scripture also tells us that we can quit on God. When we quit on God, he does not forsake us - we forsake Him. When we quit on God, nobody snatches us from His hand, we snatch ourselves from His hand.

    We can be regenerated, but that doesn't mean that we can't die again by our own volition.

    Being saved is not a one-time "it's done" kind of event. It is an ongoing process and one must endure to the end.

    There is no loophole. We are told that it is God's will that ALL should be saved, but it is not man's will that all should be saved. It is God's will that Jesus lose none of His followers, but it is not man's will that Jesus lose none.

    God does not force us to love Him nor does he force us to remain faithful to Him. We have choices.

    It is the freedom to make choices that God gave us. We are not forced to remain holy nor are we normally forced to be obedient. We are not forced to remain in the faith, and "being saved" is not completed until the last day. One is never actually saved until that person gets to be with The Father.

    Is it not interesting what the warnings to the churches state in Revelation? The Angels of the churches are being warned about the end result of behaviors of the "saved" churches. Those warnings are not for the "unsaved." Why warn someone who cannot find themselves among the "unsaved" again?

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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    There does not have to be a loophole in John 6. All we have to do is understand what the verses really mean and what they don't mean. While we would like to take them as a promise of our salvation, regardless of our actions on this Earth, that is not what they are. We still have the requirement to remain faithful to God. When we remain faithful, we have the promise.

    Jesus promised to never forsake us. Scripture tells us that nobody can snatch us from His hand. Scripture also tells us that we can quit on God. When we quit on God, he does not forsake us - we forsake Him. When we quit on God, nobody snatches us from His hand, we snatch ourselves from His hand.

    We can be regenerated, but that doesn't mean that we can't die again by our own volition.

    Being saved is not a one-time "it's done" kind of event. It is an ongoing process and one must endure to the end.

    There is no loophole. We are told that it is God's will that ALL should be saved, but it is not man's will that all should be saved. It is God's will that Jesus lose none of His followers, but it is not man's will that Jesus lose none.

    God does not force us to love Him nor does he force us to remain faithful to Him. We have choices.

    It is the freedom to make choices that God gave us. We are not forced to remain holy nor are we normally forced to be obedient. We are not forced to remain in the faith, and "being saved" is not completed until the last day. One is never actually saved until that person gets to be with The Father.

    Is it not interesting what the warnings to the churches state in Revelation? The Angels of the churches are being warned about the end result of behaviors of the "saved" churches. Those warnings are not for the "unsaved." Why warn someone who cannot find themselves among the "unsaved" again?
    Your opinion is noted. I also noted that you
    • refused to answer one of my questions, and
    • refused to give one verse


    I have not ducked the issue of a wanton Christian life. I have admitted in my last sentence that, "It is obvious from scripture that a believer can fall away, so what is it that he/she falls away from?” But should we not first show, with a mountain of scripture, how to get around my two questions?

  15. #15
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    Re: Does the Prophecy of Apostasy Prove OSAS is False?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your opinion is noted. I also noted that you
    • refused to answer one of my questions, and
    • refused to give one verse


    C'mon, I only asked two questions. It should be easy if you are so sure.
    I really thought my answers to your questions were visible. Let me do it this way:

    The questions then become;
    1. Who or what power can un-birth this man from God and remove his sonship, and who or what power can rip his divine nature away?
    His own free will. A man can choose to stop following God. If you look at the message to the Seven Churches, you see that their candlesticks will be removed if they don't change their ways. Once a "saved" person subsequently rejects God, their sonship is eliminated. God is that power.

    2. If this rebirth is by believing (faith), how can it be rescinded by works?
    It is not recinded by works. It is recinded by unbelief. It dies when the faith dies. The accompanying sin is just the resumption of the past ways and it just further separates us from God.

    Despite all the wonderfulness of God's grace, just as He does not treat us as robots which he would order to love Him and obey Him, God requires that we continue in the faith; continue to love and obey him. The result of our choosing to serve Satan rather than God is the withdrawal of that Grace. It is a free gift which we drop by choosing to serve one master over the other. God says that we cannot serve two. We get to make that choice.

    It has happened many times in the past, and the falling away will continue.

    You have already been given verses in this thread. They are not good enough for you?

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