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Thread: Pretrib is unscriptural ... beause no one can show it in Scripture

  1. #166
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    Re: Pretrib ... where is it in Scripture?

    The problem many have with the pre-trib removal of the righteous stems primarily from a lack of understanding what the tribulation period is for and who it is directed at. Also, they really don't take into account the many OT passages that suggest a pre-trib. Technically, "rapture" is indeed in the NT. The Greek "harpazo" was translated "rapio" in the Latin Vulgate, from which we get the English word "rapture". That is a softball to deal with. Those that don't believe the rapture is in scripture haven't taken the time to dig into it.

    But the OT is loaded with verses that suggest the righteous are removed and hidden away from the calamities that come upon the earth during the final trib period. Both living righteous and resurrected dead righteous..... together.

    And what is the GT period for and who is it directed at? Well, it seems pretty clear that it is judgements coming upon the unbelieving... those who dwell on the earth as per Revelation 3:10, 6:10, and 11:10 for example. Do a detailed study throughout scripture sometime on who the earth dwellers / those who dwell on the earth actually are. Scripture virtually always conveys the idea that the condemned unrighteous are called "those who dwell on the earth". It is not all inhabitants of the earth in general.

    Also, Israel is the main focus. Yeshua cannot return until the collective national Israel leadership calls for His return. He made that extremely clear in Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 and Matthew 23:39. It is why Satan has been trying for 2000 years to eliminate the Jews off the planet and, terribly, many in the Church have been useful idiots in that endeavor. Either by killing them outright or playing semantic games like there are no real physical Hebrews anymore along lost tribes nonsense. Israel, unfortunately, will have to be virtually slammed against the wall and woke up to finally acknowledge the Messiah they rejected when He came and turn from that offense and call for His return. If Israel is no longer valid, then Yeshua lied to us in Hosea and He can't be trusted regarding your salvation. That He does remember His promises and will deliver physical Jacob (Israel) is our insurance policy that He will also remember His promises to those who place their trust in Him.

    But, the final tribulation period is NOT intended for the Church. Such an idea that the Church has to go thru it suggests some sort of "protestant purgatory". It suggests that the Messiah's blood was not enough to make believers righteous, that they have to somehow prove they are righteous. That is an insult to the finished work of Messiah and telling God that His Son's sacrifice just wasn't enough to get the job done. Man, that is very dangerous ground to be walking on. Or that somehow the believers need to be "purified" by going thru that period. Again, it implies that Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection was not good enough. Go down that path if you will. Good Luck.

    It is true that a doctrine should not be based on a verse or two. Really it is more than that. No doctrine should be adhered to that cannot be supported in both the OT and NT. That is the scripture mandate in Torah, that no matter can be settled without the testimony of two witnesses... the OT and NT in terms of doctrine. And the Bereans set the example in Acts. They searched the scriptures daily (OT) to see if what Paul taught them was true. Many of Paul's dissertations eventually made up the NT. And a pre-trib removal of the righteous is definitely in the OT and not hidden in some sort of esoteric fashion, but plainly out in the open.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  2. #167
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    Re: Pretrib ... where is it in Scripture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    The problem many have with the pre-trib removal of the righteous stems primarily from a lack of understanding what the tribulation period is for and who it is directed at. Also, they really don't take into account the many OT passages that suggest a pre-trib. Technically, "rapture" is indeed in the NT. The Greek "harpazo" was translated "rapio" in the Latin Vulgate, from which we get the English word "rapture". That is a softball to deal with. Those that don't believe the rapture is in scripture haven't taken the time to dig into it.
    Finding the word "rapture" isn't the issue. Determining whether it is Pretrib or Postrib is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff
    But the OT is loaded with verses that suggest the righteous are removed and hidden away from the calamities that come upon the earth during the final trib period. Both living righteous and resurrected dead righteous..... together.
    The idea of protecting the righteous is indeed in the Scriptures. But this isn't the issue. Tying this protection to the rapture is. There is no Pretrib protection in the Scriptures at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff
    And what is the GT period for and who is it directed at? Well, it seems pretty clear that it is judgements coming upon the unbelieving... those who dwell on the earth as per Revelation 3:10, 6:10, and 11:10 for example. Do a detailed study throughout scripture sometime on who the earth dwellers / those who dwell on the earth actually are. Scripture virtually always conveys the idea that the condemned unrighteous are called "those who dwell on the earth". It is not all inhabitants of the earth in general.
    Forget about who "earth dwellers" are. You have the "Great Tribulation" wrong. The GT is the time from 70 AD to the coming of Christ. It is the Jewish Diaspora, beginning with the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans. This Jewish Diaspora also includes Jewish believers, who also suffer in the aftermath. It also includes Christians who in other nations suffer the same kind of fate in their own nations.

    There is a 3.5 reign of Antichrist at the end of the age, but it is not called the Great Tribulation. Rather, it is the very end of an age-long period of tribulation for both Jews and Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff
    Also, Israel is the main focus. Yeshua cannot return until the collective national Israel leadership calls for His return. He made that extremely clear in Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 and Matthew 23:39. It is why Satan has been trying for 2000 years to eliminate the Jews off the planet and, terribly, many in the Church have been useful idiots in that endeavor. Either by killing them outright or playing semantic games like there are no real physical Hebrews anymore along lost tribes nonsense. Israel, unfortunately, will have to be virtually slammed against the wall and woke up to finally acknowledge the Messiah they rejected when He came and turn from that offense and call for His return. If Israel is no longer valid, then Yeshua lied to us in Hosea and He can't be trusted regarding your salvation. That He does remember His promises and will deliver physical Jacob (Israel) is our insurance policy that He will also remember His promises to those who place their trust in Him.
    I agree that Israel will be saved as a nation. However, just like in any other nation much of Israel is ungodly and unworthy of salvation. Many will be destroyed in judgment. But a remnant will be saved, fulfilling God's promises to Abraham.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff
    But, the final tribulation period is NOT intended for the Church. Such an idea that the Church has to go thru it suggests some sort of "protestant purgatory". It suggests that the Messiah's blood was not enough to make believers righteous, that they have to somehow prove they are righteous. That is an insult to the finished work of Messiah and telling God that His Son's sacrifice just wasn't enough to get the job done. Man, that is very dangerous ground to be walking on. Or that somehow the believers need to be "purified" by going thru that period. Again, it implies that Messiah's death, burial, and resurrection was not good enough. Go down that path if you will. Good Luck.
    Christians do suffer in the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist. Revelation says so. Your assumption that it has to be a "purgatory" is unfounded. Never has the suffering of Christians been considered a "purgatory." Your suggesting that reveals your self-made argument against why Christians shouldn't have to suffer in this time period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff
    It is true that a doctrine should not be based on a verse or two. Really it is more than that. No doctrine should be adhered to that cannot be supported in both the OT and NT. That is the scripture mandate in Torah, that no matter can be settled without the testimony of two witnesses... the OT and NT in terms of doctrine. And the Bereans set the example in Acts. They searched the scriptures daily (OT) to see if what Paul taught them was true. Many of Paul's dissertations eventually made up the NT. And a pre-trib removal of the righteous is definitely in the OT and not hidden in some sort of esoteric fashion, but plainly out in the open.
    No, it isn't. It isn't anywhere. Just finding examples where God's people escape calamity is *not* explicit proof that this is connected in any way with Jesus' 2nd Coming. On the contrary, one of the clearest teachings of Jesus' Coming in the OT is in Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes explicitly to destroy Antichrist--not to enable believers to escape tribulation.

    Jesus himself said he did not come to take us out of this earth and its tribulations. Believe him! John 17.15

  3. #168
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    Re: Pretrib ... where is it in Scripture?

    The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

    They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
    I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

    What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
    Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
    Will He say; Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

    NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
    THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

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