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Thread: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

  1. #31
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Which individuals upon earth today will be resurrected before Christ returns? And which would have the powers as they do? These prophets are NOT your ordinary folk.
    Your response makes no sense from a Biblical standpoint. Please quote me the chapter and verse where it says that the two witnesses are men who lived before.

    *crickets*

    You act as if the OT prophets had power independent from God and that He cannot bestow power on whom He chooses.

    And I will be resurrected before His second coming and will be riding back with Him, for the record.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Technically, there are two men who lived and never died that we know of. I don't really see a reason for the witnesses being Enoch and Elijah. Moses and Elijah seems a bit more likely as they were the two at the transfiguration, but then there's a problem because Moses has already died. I think Moses and Elijah represented the the law and the prophecy of God's Word, which is what I interpret the two witnesses to be.
    Actually we don't know that they never died, what we know is that God took them whilst they were still living. Those who are alive and rise to meet Him in the air, do they die? Sorry, maybe a separate thread.
    The two witnesses are clearly the two lampstands and the two olive trees. They are two individuals and can be like John was Elijah - not physically him, but in another sense him. Jesus was Moses. These two will be fulfilling those same roles, but this time in preparation for Jesus second coming and the Great Tribulation before it.

  3. #33
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by exitludos View Post
    I said Antiochus Epiphanes.
    You did. Must have overlooked that.

    I do not understand what you mean here.
    Meaning Daniel's prophesy was approx. 350 years before Antiochus Epiphanes' downfall if I have my math and facts correct. Also, I don't see how Daniel 9 is not referring to End of Times.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    Technically, there are two men who lived and never died that we know of. I don't really see a reason for the witnesses being Enoch and Elijah. Moses and Elijah seems a bit more likely as they were the two at the transfiguration, but then there's a problem because Moses has already died. I think Moses and Elijah represented the the law and the prophecy of God's Word, which is what I interpret the two witnesses to be.
    To your point, Moses would be eliminated if that is the qualifier since he physically died, unlike Enoch and Elijah who never experienced physical death. There isn't a lot written about Enoch but what little there is would indicate that he had a very close relationship with God. For God to have spared him physical death puts him on par with Elijah. Jesus said that no man that was ever born of a woman was as a great as John the Baptizer who had Elijah's spirit in him or was somehow spiritually connected to Elijah.

    Moses was rebuked by God a few times, the last of which prohibited him from entering the Land of Milk and Honey. I realize that God called Moses the most humble man on earth, but I also believe that statement pertained to the span of time which he lived. He spent 40 years in the desert leading the rebellious Israelites only to be denied access to the land he was leading them to - that must have really humbled Moses. He died in the desert by himself, at least to my knowledge.

    The only major issue with Elijah was that he fled for his life (he didn't fully trust the Lord would deliver him) out of fear of Jezebel's threat after the battles of the Deities. That was definitely a low point in Elijah's life, but he redeemed himself, and mentored Elisha for 10 years before being taken away in a chariot to heaven. God didn't rebuke Elijah for fleeing. Moses wasn't rebuked by God for fleeing for his life either after killing the Egyptian and covering up his crime. Hebrews spins the story about Moses leaving Egypt a lot different than how and why he fled Pharaoh/Egypt. It wasn't this voluntary giving up of his royal privileges; it was fleeing from a death sentence. Pharaoh wanted to kill him - something Hebrews deems irrelevant.

    Moses was rebuked by God in a major way for taking credit for the water from the rock he split - something Hebrews also glosses over. I never understood why there are such vast differences in the Hebrews account of Moses (11:24-27) versus Exodus 2:11-15. Major differences in how the story is told. Hebrews basically says Moses' leaving Egypt was because of his faith and that he did not fear, but Exodus describes his as leaving because of his fear. I've always had a hard time harmonizing that.

    Exodus 2:11-15


    English Standard Version (ESV)

    Moses Flees to Midian

    11 "One day, when Moses had grown up, he went out to his people and looked on their burdens, and he saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his people.[a] 12 He looked this way and that, and seeing no one, he struck down the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 When he went out the next day, behold, two Hebrews were struggling together. And he said to the man in the wrong, “Why do you strike your companion?” 14 He answered,“Who made you a prince and a judge over us? Do you mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid, and thought, “Surely the thing is known.” 15 When Pharaoh heard of it, he sought to kill Moses. But Moses fled from Pharaoh and stayed in the land of Midian. And he sat down by a well."


    Hebrews 11:24-27

    English Standard Version (ESV)

    24 "By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt,not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible."



    Last edited by Nick; Dec 25th 2013 at 03:29 AM. Reason: grammar!!
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Lol at Nick editing his post and listing the reason as "grammer"

    Merry Christmas bro
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Lol at Nick editing his post and listing the reason as "grammer"

    Merry Christmas bro
    I'm anal when it comes to that, especially with work. Nothing bugs me more than missing an "a" or "the" in a sentence on email. You can't change it once it's sent but you can here and add a few things. I wish email worked the same way. With grammar, I try to be a perfectionist. btw, any comment on the Heb vs. Exo account of Moses?
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  7. #37
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I'm anal when it comes to that, especially with work. Nothing bugs me more than missing an "a" or "the" in a sentence on email. You can't change it once it's sent but you can here and add a few things. I wish email worked the same way. With grammar, I try to be a perfectionist. btw, any comment on the Heb vs. Exo account of Moses?
    I Lol'd because you spelled grammar wrong .

    Is that another thread?
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I Lol'd because you spelled grammar wrong .

    Is that another thread?
    Ugh! No, it's this thread - post #34
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Your response makes no sense from a Biblical standpoint. Please quote me the chapter and verse where it says that the two witnesses are men who lived before.



    You act as if the OT prophets had power independent from God and that He cannot bestow power on whom He chooses.

    And I will be resurrected before His second coming and will be riding back with Him, for the record.
    Not sure how you thought I was saying they were two men which lived before.......Showing biblically by their raising up after 3 days and before the general resurrection that they are not two "men". Men meaning like you and I rather they are like Christ. The two witnesses are Michael and Gabriel.

  10. #40

    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Meaning Daniel's prophesy was approx. 350 years before Antiochus Epiphanes' downfall if I have my math and facts correct. Also, I don't see how Daniel 9 is not referring to End of Times.
    I think the book was written during the rule of Antiochus. How Daniel 9 relates to the time period would have to be the subject of another discussion.

  11. #41
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by exitludos View Post
    I think the book was written during the rule of Antiochus. How Daniel 9 relates to the time period would have to be the subject of another discussion.
    Daniel was written in 536 B.C. and the events recorded took place from about 605 - 535 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes came to power in 175 B.C., hardly the same timeframe. That was why I asked you which Antiochus, and you confirmed Antiochus Epiphanes.

    A few references: http://www.endtime-truth.com/studies2.html

    1. Antiochus Epiphanes was a Syrian king who came to power about 175 BC. He is one of the Selucids, who in succession to Alexander the Great built a realm in Syrian and adjacent lands. Epiphanes’ name means “God made manifest.” He sought to force Greek custom on the Jews. In imposing Hellenism, he was but following out the intentions of his predecessor, Alexander the Great, whose dream was to create an empire by culture. This had a measure of success, but there was a core of priests and people who refused to abandon the faith of their forefathers and be Hellenized. By his Hellenism, Epiphanes tried to put an end to the Jewish religious community. The events were the cause of the Maccabean struggle.

    2. Antiochus IV, heeding the advise of Hellenized Jews, believed that the majority of the Jewish nation was ready to accept GREEK CULTURE. Antiochus decided to turn the temple at Jerusalem into a Greek temple of Zeus or Dionysus. The strong resistance of the people led to the FIRST KNOWN INSTANCE OF RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION IN HISTORY: worship of God was forbidden and the Jews were forced to worship other Gods.

    3. Antiochus, on his way back to Palestine, sent Apollinius (167 BC) with twenty two thousand soldiers to destroy Jerusalem two years after it’s capture by himself. Apollinius slew multitudes, dismantled and pillaged the city. They then, from a fortress they had built commanding the temple, fell on and slew the devout Jews worshipping at the temple; so that temple services were discontinued. Antiochus decreed that all should conform to Hellenism. The temple was consecrated to Zeus - Dionysus. Identifying himself with that god, WITH FANATICAL HAUGHTINESS HE SOUGHT TO MAKE WORSHIP OF HIMSELF UNIVERSAL (1 Maccabees 1:41; 2 Maccabees 6:7).

    While Daniel 9 ia subject for another discussion, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by exitludos View Post
    Daniel is, altogether, an apocalypse about the vindication of Israel through oppression, specifically by the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. Daniel is primarily an exhortation to remain faithful in light of the downfall of Antiochus.
    I don't see how Daniel 9 doesn't specifically address the End of Times, which would make the above statement false. Dan 9:24 is a prophesy that specifically speaks to the future of Israel in the final end of the age.."Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place."

    From my notes:

    God promises two sets of three accomplishments each. First, those related to sin are: 1) finish the transgression, i.e., restrain sin and Israel’s in particular in its long trend of apostasy, as in v. 11; 2) put an end to sin, i.e., to judge it with finality (cf. Heb. 9:26); and 3) atone for iniquity, signifies to furnish the actual basis of covering sin by full atonement, the blood of the crucified Messiah who is “cut off ” (Dan. 9:26), which affects the first two realities (cf. the fountain, Zech. 13:1). Second, those accomplishments related to righteousness are: 1) bring in . . . righteousness, the eternal righteousness of Daniel’s people in their great change from centuries of apostasy; 2) seal both vision, i.e., no more revelation is needed and God will bring these anticipations to completion by their fulfillment in Israel’s blessing as a nation; and 3) anoint a most holy place, consecrate the Holy Place in a temple of the future that will be the center of worship in the millennial kingdom (cf. Ezek. 40–48). Clearly this must be understood to sweep to the end of Gentile power and the time of Antichrist right before Christ’s return. Summing up, the first three are fulfilled in principle at Christ’s first coming, in full at his return. The last three complete the plan at his second advent.
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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Ugh! No, it's this thread - post #34
    The Exodus account is at age 40 and the Hebrews account is at age 80.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Not sure how you thought I was saying they were two men which lived before.......Showing biblically by their raising up after 3 days and before the general resurrection that they are not two "men". Men meaning like you and I rather they are like Christ. The two witnesses are Michael and Gabriel.
    Do you have Biblical support for this? Do you have any Biblical precedence for angels dying, much less being resurrected?
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    The Exodus account is at age 40 and the Hebrews account is at age 80.
    That makes no sense since it's the same story.

    Wait a minute...are you saying the Hebrews account is when Moses went back to Pharaoh to retrieve his people? If so, I don't see how you read that into the text. They both refer to Moses' initial fleeing from Pharaoh. If it refers to the Exodus then it wouldn't be in chronological order with the previous verses 24-26. Then again v.28 talks about the Passover so you could be right and that would in fact harmonize it.
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  15. #45

    Re: Who are the two witnesses in Rev 11 and the woman in Rev 12?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Daniel was written in 536 B.C. and the events recorded took place from about 605 - 535 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes came to power in 175 B.C., hardly the same timeframe. That was why I asked you which Antiochus, and you confirmed Antiochus Epiphanes.
    I understand that the dates provided in the book correspond 605-535 BC. But that is a different question from when the book was written. I do not find anything in the book claiming it was written in 605-535 BC, or even that Daniel was the author. (The first-person speech from Daniel in the later chapters is not evidence Daniel was the author, because they occur within a third-person omniscient narration.)

    The book of Daniel talks about 'the time of the end', but that is not the same thing as 'the end of time'. Reversing the nouns is a mistake. 'The end', in context, is the end of the persecution wrought by Antiochus Epiphanes. In a similar manner, the first few chapters of Ezekiel declare 'the end is near', but in context 'the end' is obviously the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem, not the end of all history. The phrase 'the end', or even 'the time of the end', must be interpreted according to the surrounding context. In Daniel, I see the context being wholly about Antiochus Epiphanes' persecution of Israel.

    The book of Daniel as a whole is an exhortation to Israelites living during Antiochus Epiphanes' oppression. Even the stories found in the first six chapters are specifically included, not because they merely tell a few interesting historical events involving Daniel, but because they are didactic illustrations of a righteous reaction to the pagan persecution the Israelites were going through: non-violent resistance, and faithfulness to their covenant with God, as expressed through obedience to the Law of Moses.

    As I have said, I think the book was written during the rule of Antiochus Epiphanes, and that all of the prophetic material (Daniel 9 included) climaxes in the events of that time period. I do not want to take the present thread off course, so if you would like to discuss it further, please feel free to start a new thread.

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